Lekkie, to avoid any misunderstandings: I have been involved with Landmark for more then 10 years. Held various jobs within the organisation. The usual 'have you done it yourself' does not apply for me.

Quote
Lekkie
patrick-darcy - I thought I was the smartest human being walking around on the planet, a regular know-it-all.... Turns out, what I (or I suppose all of us) really wanted was attention, acceptance and love from other people, (...) I was a presumptuos asshole whom very few people wanted to be around, (...).
Do you realise it doesn't take Landmark to find out these basics about yourself?
I guess introduction leaders love your 'share' about this succes, don't they? They ask you to perform your story and make it sound like sharing rather then 'a story about', especially with the six figure income.
How really real does it feel for you now?
What feeling stays behind after you've done your share at an introduction? How do you feel when you sit down again? And 5 minutes after?

Who I am now is none of what I just described. In the least, I've come to realize that is how I occurred to people in my life - and after I did the Landmark Forum, I actually had the cojones to ask a few of those people whom I thought I may have affected with something I've said or done to them for forgiveness - and some of them were like, "are you dying, is this why you are so nice to me? What happened :)? (that was the best one I heard), and another one was, "I thought hell would freeze over before I would hear you say you were EVER wrong about anything, being you're so "smart" ".... and I can go on and on here as well, as to the feedback I solicited with my new behavior around the same old people I've known for years.
How long ago this did all happen?
Is it really the rush of Landmark that you feel or is it the rush of having been totally unpredictable for these people?
How do you try to recreate that sense of 'rush' right now? Do you get uncomfortable when you haven't had a breakthrough or peak for some time?

nettie - it's funny you say that, because I know one of the sales people in the company I work very well, and he told me the same thing - "it's all about meeting statistics (or else you'd be out of a job too)". So, naturally, I was a little perturbed to hear that they saw me as "just another statistic", so I fired back at him - "So, you're just a number to the people that sell you food? I'm just a number to you when I say yes/no when you try to close the sale?" - to which he didn't really reply emotionally - given that I am not a sales guy myself - all he asked me was - "John - when you applied for this job, tell me, what were you doing inside of the 8 hour long interview with the team?". I smiled, thanked him and walked away. I did this after the Forum. Before that - I hated their guts. As a matter of fact, I _resented_ sales people in general.
So you told him off. How do you know people are not statistics? You have attended meetings and introductions as a volunteer, I am sure.
At the end of the introduction, after the guest have left, what would rather be the question: "Did your sister enroll?" or "How many did we enroll?". You know the answer. And if the question is about a specific person, it's most likely asked in order to update the statistics...
Have you ever been at an introduction where the introduction leader was not satisfied or unhappy (or what you would call it) because not many people registered? Or the other way: on a high because many people did? Where names of new enrollees mentioned then?

Zorro - I was not skirting responsibility - I _have_ a child too. All I said was to for mom1313 to say it like this - "Son, I have fear, doubt and uncertainty about you attending the adult Landmark Forum as a result of my attendance to it". At that point she could say this - "Would you be interested in attending it?", rather than bark a command - "DON'T DO IT" - at him. What do you think is more likely to get a "NO" out of her son? That's what I was attempting to tell you, but I think you misinterpreted it or you may think that teens don't have cognitive ability....
My parents used to bark orders at me many times when I was young. Sometimes, they also used to make requests (e.g. by asking or offering) of me too, rather than order me around. Guess which ones I listened to and which ones I didn't? As a result of the Forum, I now damn well know exactly what works and what doesn't when communicating with people. Telling (ordering) people (teens or not) what they're supposed to be doing is an automatic resentment builder. ASKING them (e.g. making a request or an offer) instead has a powerful effect. You could get a "NO", but you will NOT get the resentment. That's what I want mom1313 to realize.
Again, you are telling things that any person with average knowledge of psychology could explain to you. Or any parent of teenagers for that matter...

As for nettie's friends predicament - the only wrongful death lawsuit was this one - [culteducation.com], and I could not find any others. And the court found in favor of Landmark. Can you point me to other wrongful death lawsuits? I've been unable to dig up any. (...)
But you have been able to dig up other stuff...?
I leave listing the law suits and other things up to others who are better in that. My contribution lays in having gone through LE myself and sharing from my personal experience.
We can play semantics here, but I am sure you've heard about the bad press and law suits. You think that's all b**lsh*t?

@RRModerator: Lekkie is no psychologist, neither am I or is Nettie. Still we give advise. I think it can be helpful to point out to mom from which side advise is coming, but further more... I wouldn't warn Lekkie not to give advise or you should warn everybody else who does so. I think downhere there's no harm in a Lekkie stepping in the discussion from time to time. Even better: it helps build our case. ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2008 04:19AM by Europe-girl.

Ok Rick Ross - I'll bite - you like to challenge me - but I won't indulge in this past this post:

Lekkie:

Again, you are not qualified in any way whatsoever to offer a mother advice about her children.

You aren't qualified to educate people about love, relationships, cults - yet you sell DVDs through your website on love, relationships and cults. mom1313 doesn't have to heed my advice whatsoever.


This is better handled by a child psychologist, or a licensed marriage and family therapist.


I never disputed that a child psychologist or a licensed marriage/family therapist offers value as well. It's just far more expensive. That's all. The experience you get in the Forum in 3 days for a measly cost of USD $500, will take her (mom1313) or her son months, years, or possibly a lifetime to get. The experience of seeing yourself as others see you is something I know a lot of people pray for on a daily basis. Seeing where your fears, uncertainties and doubts about yourself and/or other people arise is only, in my non-professional (I'm not a psychologist/counselor) opinion, possible in a group with other people who are honest about themselves or one on one with a counselor - at a much higher cost.

Some of the content of what you hear in the Forum might not be what you want to hear, but it is the 'truth' (e.g. what happened versus what they say about what happened - not entirely the same story) about people's life experiences - and some of those people I met there, haven't told the truth about themselves to anyone for a long, long, LONG, time, or they even made up stories about what had happened in their lives.... and re-tell those as the 'truth'. There was one lady who was a nurse, said her mother told her "I dont love you anymore" at age 6.... Her mom was probably pissed or something, didn't watch what she was saying - and boom, the girl was so impacted, she decided she would never allow THAT to happen to anyone else - to NOT be loved! This impacted her so profoundly, she became a nurse - and what do nurses do? Love and help people. She forgot what had happened, and made up a story about her not being loving or not allowing herself to be loved.... (because she FIRMLY believed her mother did not love her!) and acted it out in life/relationships too (and you dont want to hear the impact of that, I assure you).

If mom1313's son figures out something about himself via dialogue with regular people in the Forum that will completely alter his relationship with her - what is the price of that? $500/weekend or $140/hour for a year with a child psychologist? People sometimes just need to _TALK_ honestly about what bugs them. The Forum provides a, ironically, FORUM, for that. At 500 per weekend, it beats all the child psycholgists I know for people that do not explicitly need one or can not afford one.

Apparently, Landmark did quite a sales job on you.

What are you really saying Rick? Be honest. Are you saying I'm brainwashed? Go ahead. I can take it. I'm a big boy. And I won't cry if you offend me. As long as you don't outright dismiss/ignore/censor me.


According to your posts it seems that anyone who doesn't endorse Landmark's product, is somehow wrong.


Show me where I said that.

You (you = anyone) don't have to do the Forum. You don't have to buy Apple. You don't have to shop at Wal-Mart. You don't have to have a great relationship with your children, spouse or parents. You don't have to look at yourself and where your opinions create an unworkable situation in your own life. Hey - why live even? Just go right ahead and kill yourself - it'll solve _ALL_ your problems, past, present and future. Give me a break...


But given the company's deeply troubled history, which includes repeated personal injury lawsuits, labor violations, constant complaints and bad press, it's more likely that you are wrong.


I merely shared what I observed - it was "right" for me (right wouldnt be the word I choose, but ok..). I did read your documents archive before I posted here. All of the lawsuits have been either settled, resolved or dismissed. You don't get good press on some of the other websites I visited. As a matter of fact, some people think you are downright intolerable. But I am here anyway- not to spite you, but to also see why you think something like the Forum is dangerous. What's been your experience with it? Did you end up emotionally distressed the following Monday like I did because you saw something about yourself you didn't like or wish you'd have done differently?


After all Landmark Education is a for-profit privately owned company, which is in business to sell its product for a profit collected by its owners.


Can you send me those DVDs you're selling for free then? I'll email you my address. Come on Rick...



In my opinion despite its name, Landmark isn't about "education," it's about manipulation.


You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine, and as mom1313 is to hers, nettie to hers, etc.

Do guns kill people? Or do people kill people? Or does the NRA kill people? Or the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution kill people? Or the founding fathers who also packed, kill people today, telepathically from their graves?

That's your analogy - that if you hear something from someone & then you act on it, but didn't like the outcome of what you were getting - you blame the one who told you to do it for doing what you did (not necessarily the outcome of what you did). It's like we all temporarily lose control of our minds each time we do something that we aren't familiar with or scares us, yet we come out of it alive, for better or worse, on the other side of the experience...


This has been exposed through news reports--

See [www.culteducation.com]

And Landmark's ability to manipulate people is also illustrated by your posts on this thread.


All Landmark does is prove to you that the illusion that you've been somehow manipulated in life by anyone else other than yourself, is not true. You get to pull the trigger ultimately - regardless of whether you based your decision on someone's say so, or yourself (your past experience or lack of it, all the same).

Landmark didnt send me here - I came here having the same fears as you do - about being manipulated.... It cant be further from the truth. And even if you are manipulated - you wouldn't know it anyway, because it's real to you. Who's "manipulating" you into putting up this message board?


What are you here for John?


I was fueled by the same doubts as mom1313. I loved the controversy the Landmark Forum produces. It scared me and enticed me, both at the same time. I went and did it anyway - despite the negative feedback I saw on your website, because if I was held back by what you posted about Landmark Education or by the experiences that people shared about it, I would've NEVER done it. Now I not only do not regret it, but I think the 3 day experience was priceless. I'm here to share that, because I was also someone who was extremely negative about what they do.


It seems like your only purpose is to promote and sell Landmark in an attempt to help the company make more money. Are you on commission?


You couldn't pay me to tell you about the Forum. I do that for free. Besides I don't think they pay commission to anyone unless you are employed by them. I'm not (nor do I need to be - I make more money than any one of their forum leaders individually).


Landmark doesn't seem to always pay employees fairly, according to reported labor violations.


Landmark is an at-will employer. You can leave at any time, with or without cause. Show me who has /sued/ (rather than just complained and got an immediate resolution - not a lawsuit) them for labor violations in the U.S.. I scoured your website for info :

[www.culteducation.com] (request for information - nothing went on here)
[www.culteducation.com] (backwages were paid to _employee_ - resolved in favor of employee)
[www.culteducation.com] (no evidence of willfull violation, backwages paid to all employees)
[www.culteducation.com] (resolved, backwages paid)
[www.culteducation.com] (this has nothing to do with Landmark, but with Werner's ex-wife Ellen playing dumb with the IRS, by pleaing ignorance of the law as an excuse for not paying back taxes owed to the IRS)
[www.culteducation.com] (non-issue - just a lot of restating the obvious, no one violated any labor laws here)

So - ALL violations have been addressed/resolved, no lawsuits filed or judgments won against LE.... Just setting the record clear w/your labor violations.

"Fair pay" is determined by what you mutually agree to. I'd like to make 150 an hour where I am - but I don't. Do you know why? Cause they'd tell me to bugger off if I asked for it.



Imagine what people would say if Sears or some other commercial enterprise, relied upon free labor provided by "volunteers" to maximize its profit margins by reducing overhead.

That's called exploitation not "education."

Think about it.


It is only exploitation if you are coerced. Landmark Education does not coerce anyone - employees, customers, volunteers, etc. If you don't want to volunteer your time - then don't - e.g. say "NO" when asked.

They could organize as a non-profit too. I'm just not sure how you would grow a non-profit such as theirs.

The best way for them, in my opinion, is to remain exactly where they are - for-profit, a frugally run, selfless organization - with a mission to give away to the world what they have gotten for themselves. And the only way to do that is, unfortunately or fortunately, to attend the Landmark Forum and get a glimpse of the one thing you never get a glimpse of - who you are as a human being.


And think about how a company with a reputation like Landmark sold a "six figure" guy like you.


Their reputation preceeds them - for a very good reason.

I came into the Forum looking for a recipe on how to fix something that bothered me about my wife. By the time I walked out of it, I got a lot more than I bargained for out of it. That's what "sold" me.

You seem to be resigned about money. Why did you quote "six figures"? Would you like me to scan and send you my 1040 - I'll block out the SS# and names/addresses, but you can look at the total income.

Perhaps you'd like me to buy those DVDs from you instead of giving them to me free of charge from the goodness of your heart?

J.

Lekkie, to avoid any misunderstandings: I have been involved with Landmark for more then 10 years. Held various jobs within the organisation. The usual 'have you done it yourself' does not apply for me.

Aesome! How about I give you my Skype info , I've spent too much time typing about what I experience via the Forum - so why don't we just talk, it's easier for me. I'd like to hear when you did the Forum and why you think the Forum is pop-psychology that a teenager could've taught me... Can you IM me your info on how to contact you verbally instead of via message boards? I am always intrigued by various points of view, including the ones shared on this message board.

[Moderator note: Beware of divulging any personal information through any phone conversation with members of this board. This may be an attempt to gather information, which might potentially be shared with a group or leader concerned about criticism posted on the message board.]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2008 09:50PM by rrmoderator.

Quote
Lekkie
patrick-darcy - I thought I was the smartest human being walking around on the planet, a regular know-it-all.... Turns out, what I (or I suppose all of us) really wanted was attention, acceptance and love from other people, but was going about winning those things in the worst possible ways - by being cynical, resigned, attached to being funny and/or clever, by outsmarting people, by telling them what they know or what they don't know, by spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt about things I didn't know the first thing about (hmm, we have a President like that in office now!), other than what someone has told me or what someone put on some website about something.... I can go on and on - to say the least, I was a presumptuos asshole whom very few people wanted to be around, in spite of my six figure income, in spite of "living the American dream", in spite of being seemingly happily married, and in spite of having parents I thought I loved but deep inside resented - because they always told me what to do even as an adult, it was as if I was an extension of my father's/mother's identity.

Who I am now is none of what I just described. In the least, I've come to realize that is how I occurred to people in my life - and after I did the Landmark Forum, I actually had the cojones to ask a few of those people whom I thought I may have affected with something I've said or done to them for forgiveness - and some of them were like, "are you dying, is this why you are so nice to me? What happened :)? (that was the best one I heard), and another one was, "I thought hell would freeze over before I would hear you say you were EVER wrong about anything, being you're so "smart" ".... and I can go on and on here as well, as to the feedback I solicited with my new behavior around the same old people I've known for years.

ok, do u believe that what u got or think u got from landmark should supercede a mother telling her child what to do?
do u believe that landmark was so valuable to u that it trumps families ?




nettie - it's funny you say that, because I know one of the sales people in the company I work very well, and he told me the same thing - "it's all about meeting statistics (or else you'd be out of a job too)". So, naturally, I was a little perturbed to hear that they saw me as "just another statistic", so I fired back at him - "So, you're just a number to the people that sell you food? I'm just a number to you when I say yes/no when you try to close the sale?" - to which he didn't really reply emotionally - given that I am not a sales guy myself - all he asked me was - "John - when you applied for this job, tell me, what were you doing inside of the 8 hour long interview with the team?". I smiled, thanked him and walked away. I did this after the Forum. Before that - I hated their guts. As a matter of fact, I _resented_ sales people in general.

Zorro - I was not skirting responsibility - I _have_ a child too. All I said was to for mom1313 to say it like this - "Son, I have fear, doubt and uncertainty about you attending the adult Landmark Forum as a result of my attendance to it". At that point she could say this - "Would you be interested in attending it?", rather than bark a command - "DON'T DO IT" - at him. What do you think is more likely to get a "NO" out of her son? That's what I was attempting to tell you, but I think you misinterpreted it or you may think that teens don't have cognitive ability....
My parents used to bark orders at me many times when I was young. Sometimes, they also used to make requests (e.g. by asking or offering) of me too, rather than order me around. Guess which ones I listened to and which ones I didn't? As a result of the Forum, I now damn well know exactly what works and what doesn't when communicating with people. Telling (ordering) people (teens or not) what they're supposed to be doing is an automatic resentment builder. ASKING them (e.g. making a request or an offer) instead has a powerful effect. You could get a "NO", but you will NOT get the resentment. That's what I want mom1313 to realize.

As for nettie's friends predicament - the only wrongful death lawsuit was this one - [culteducation.com], and I could not find any others. And the court found in favor of Landmark. Can you point me to other wrongful death lawsuits? I've been unable to dig up any. I'd be interested in reading them all. As for running away - I've known couples that've split up on far less than doing the Landmark Forum. In my own family my dad has not been talking to my mom's sister for over 30 years now. Wanna know why? She asked my mom to return a gift she gave her as an acknowledgment for taking care of me while my parents were away. She realized she couldn't afford it, so she ASKED back for it. My dad has carried that chip on his shoulder for 30+ years, to this day. Talk about splitting up the family - I give you mine (and my dad).

there are many people that have been hospitalized because of their involvement in landmark. some have died, other have
recovered and some are still recovering.

because u didnt die or have to be hospitalized would it fair to say that " it wasnt the truth for u" ?

I love lekkie - it is courageous to come here and try to turn us around into landmark robots.

I am not a psychologist - I am nettie - I have been there - done that.

My beef with landmark is clear - I don't like them. But I like the people that are involved, even lekkie.

Thanks for joining the fight everybody - we are all very much needed.

patrick-darcy -


"there are many people that have been hospitalized because of their involvement in landmark" - there have been a _few_ people hospitalized after the Forum, but it is a mighty bold/brave statement to say that it was because of the Forum. You imply causality, e.g. you _assert_ in your conversation that it is so. Yet - would you be able to prove this somehow? How will you go about proving it too? Please - I request that you don't say "hospitalized because of their involvment with landmark". I was involved with Landmark - I am not hospitalized. Matter of fact, I've never felt better and more lucid in years.

"because u didnt die or have to be hospitalized would it fair to say that " it wasnt the truth for u" - please look up "Truth" on wikipedia.com. Does the length of the article suggest that discussing the concept of 'truth' is somehow simple and uninvolved? Or is it something that people attempted to clearly define over the last N thousand years by people much smarter than myself? I don't profess to know the _TRUTH_ about why those people were hospitalized. Could it be that the Forum pushed them? YES. It _COULD BE_. Is that _IT_ then? I _DONT_ know.

In my former life, I would've told you - YES, IT IS THE FORUM, because I didn't know where the Forum begins and ends, and where my interpretation of it begins and ends either. Now I know better. I heard what I heard in the Forum and experienced what I experienced.

What I made it MEAN - is entirely my own interpretation. It is, for all intents and purposes, the TRUTH, as it occurs to me, in my head, while I'm typing this. Is my truth any bigger and better than the truth of the guy who got hospitalized or died (because of WHATEVER)? Or vice versa? I don't know - but you seem to think that his truth was more important than mine. You choose to invalidate my experience becauseI am alive, and he's dead. You choose to diss me, because I didn't die. Had I died, would that have made a difference in your daily routine? Does the person who died made a difference in your daily routine? Please do tell.

It took the love, commitment and strength of one of those 58 men and women from around the planet to pull the rug from underneath my feet about ALL of my interepretations for 3 days straight to convince me that I am not right about EVERYTHING I hear/do/see/experience/smell/touch/eat/whatever.

[...]

[Personally insulting remaks edited by Moderator]

You tell me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2008 09:51PM by rrmoderator.

Quote
Lekkie
Lekkie, to avoid any misunderstandings: I have been involved with Landmark for more then 10 years. Held various jobs within the organisation. The usual 'have you done it yourself' does not apply for me.

Aesome! How about I give you my Skype info , I've spent too much time typing about what I experience via the Forum - so why don't we just talk, it's easier for me. I'd like to hear when you did the Forum and why you think the Forum is pop-psychology that a teenager could've taught me... Can you IM me your info on how to contact you verbally instead of via message boards? I am always intrigued by various points of view, including the ones shared on this message board.

First of all: I respectfully decline skyping or chatting with you. I'm fine talking here and I appreciate the openess of a discussion where everyone can join in.
Secondly, I never said that the Forum is pop-psychology that a teenager could have taught you. I just didn't find your examples very compelling and wanted to point out to you the relative weight of them in this discussion.

I am rather curious as to your reaction on what I described as you 'sharing your breakthrough' during an introduction event. Also I'm keen to know whether you feel 'rushes' being involved with Landmark and what happens if you haven't had a breakthrough or peak moment (or whatever you call it) for a while.
Please elaborate!

Lekkie:

A couple of posts you submitted were not approved and have been deleted. They were little more than personal attacks or flames, which are against the rules you agreed to before posting here.

Attempting to attack me personally won't change the facts about Landmark Education.

I have been qualified and accepted as an expert witness about cults, cult-like groups and their dynamics in 10 states, including US Federal court through a Daubert hearing.

The Ross Institute is an educational nonprofit as recognized by the State of New Jersey and the IRS.

All contributions (e.g. DVD sales) go directly to the Ross Institute.

The Ross Institute pays no salary to me. Monies received are used to build the archives and maintain the Web site.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Having said this, there will be no more responses to personal attacks.

FYI--Landmark Education is a for-profit privately owned company run by Werner Erhard's brother and sister. As such no one knows the full compensation and salaries paid out by the company, e.g. to Erhard and his siblings.

Stay on topic. The topic on this thread is Landmark Education.

Last warning.

I receive more complaints about Landmark Education than almost any other group listed at this site, which includes hundreds of groups listed.

Here is complaint received this week:

I attended The Landmark Forum last weekend and tonight was the evening that I was suppose to bring a guest to join. As the day went on, I could not help replaying a couple of scenes in my head that would be described as abuse in any other situation. Needless to say, as the day wore on, I decided to end my forum and not go to the last session tonight. When I attended the Forum, I sat in my chair and was appalled at the Leader who called this 37 year old woman" a brat and to grow up" in front of 109 people as she stood there at the microphone talking about her dead father, and her mothers new boyfriend. As the leader reamed her from every direction, she took it and completely fell apart crying. He later told her that she had no hope and that he could not coach her. She courageously responded, "Then I want another coach." He continuously shamed her for almost 40 minutes. It was ridiculous. What was even more ridiculous..... was that I sat and watched it. I told my girlfriend (who introduced me to the Forum and is still going on her third seminar) that in any other situation, we would consider his name calling, shaming, and demeaning behavior ABUSIVE. He told another man, "You are a loser, just like your father," who happened to be an alcoholic and had obviously done much to create pain for this young man. He told this young man that he was a JERK and to call his father on his next break and take responsibility for being a jerk. While I understand that we need to "take responsibility" for our lives, the measures that this organization uses are no less than mean, demeaning, and without meaning. If you are wondering if the Landmark Forum is for you. Consider that "you are not you", "you are just a machine", and "the meaning of life is meaningless." "Then you die and they throw dirt over your face." I am glad that I had a gut feeling to not continue this nonsense anymore. Now that I have read your page, I know I can expect some harassing phone calls probably tomorrow. When they ask me why I am not continuing the Landmark Forum, I will use their answer. I am not continuing the Landmark Forum because I am not continuing the Landmark Forum. So in Landmark Lingo, they will only get a "Choice" answer from me. Not a "Decision" answer which.......always gives a reason for why we are not doing something. When they start to give me feedback, I will tell them, those are your "Racquets" talking. Why can they have an opinion....if we can't? It goes both ways.

Est, which first presented the Forum, produced so many psychiatric casualties it was written about in studies by psychiatrists.

See [www.culteducation.com]

A doctor became psychotic and killed her son after doing a series of Landmark courses. Friends and co-workers said she was not the person they once knew.

See [www.culteducation.com]

I have received complaints about people hospiatlized after training by Landmark Education--one participant was taken from a training to the hospital.

Settlements and the payment of back wages does not negate that Landmark was wrong and violated the law. It simply means they paid back wages and settled out of court rather than risk trial (e.g. the Neff case).

Landmark continues to be the subject of lawsuits.

See [www.culteducation.com]

In this litigation Landmark is called "cult-like."

See [www.culteducation.com]

In this lawsuit Landmark is the focus within a religious discrimination claim.

Landmark has a long history of litigation. Anyone interested can read an overview prepared by the law firm of Lowenstein Sandler.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Recently in Australia Landmark was called a "cult."

Landmark left France after its training was exposed on French television.

See [www.cultnews.com]

Currently a former Landmark leader is exposing the practices of the company on YouTube.

See [youtube.com]

IMO--Landmark isn't safe for adults, let alone kids.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2008 10:05PM by rrmoderator.

Quote
Lekkie
Zorro - I was not skirting responsibility - I _have_ a child too. All I said was to for mom1313 to say it like this - "Son, I have fear, doubt and uncertainty about you attending the adult Landmark Forum as a result of my attendance to it". At that point she could say this - "Would you be interested in attending it?", rather than bark a command - "DON'T DO IT" - at him. What do you think is more likely to get a "NO" out of her son? That's what I was attempting to tell you, but I think you misinterpreted it or you may think that teens don't have cognitive ability....
My parents used to bark orders at me many times when I was young. Sometimes, they also used to make requests (e.g. by asking or offering) of me too, rather than order me around. Guess which ones I listened to and which ones I didn't? As a result of the Forum, I now damn well know exactly what works and what doesn't when communicating with people. Telling (ordering) people (teens or not) what they're supposed to be doing is an automatic resentment builder. ASKING them (e.g. making a request or an offer) instead has a powerful effect. You could get a "NO", but you will NOT get the resentment. That's what I want mom1313 to realize.

Lekkie please re-read my statement:

Quote
Zorro
----Lekkie you're skirting responsibility here in typical Landmark fashion. She should tell him what to do, she is his mother and is legally responsible for his wellbeing until he reaches the age of 18. She is his legal guardian and has every right to pull him out of an organization or participation in something that could harm him. Especially an organization that is know for using brainwashing techniques on their subjects. Kids should be allowed to debate their parents and be part of a decision making process, it will help them grow and mature into adults that can make effective decisions. But she definately has the right to say "NO" and "Enough is Enough". If you don't believe me just go find a court of law and ask them.----

It may come across like I'm saying bark orders at them, but read the bold print in my original statement. As for as me thinking that teens don't have cognitive ability your totally wrong. I know several teens and serve as a father figure for them. They are very smart individuals and we have "intelligent cognitive discussions" the same way adults do. When they run into problems in their decision making process I offer up my advice. They respect that. When I was a teen back in the 80's my parents allowed me to make decisions but if things went wrong they stepped up to the plate and told me how it should be handled etc. Of course I didn't always like what I heard but they were right in the end. I didn't resent my parents then and I don't resent them now. My parents are / were the "cool" parents that my friends liked and came to for advice if they needed it.

But I can assure you this if I had been approached to attend Landmark as a teen it would have been firm "No, you're not going." In fact my parents were very upset when I was in "Landmark". They we're very happy that I quit Landmark last summer. Landmark caused a rift in my relationship with my parents and me, but it has been repaired now that I'm back to my senses. My mom told me that I was "Acting like an ASS, and I couldn't be reasoned with" when I was in Landmark.

I have also told the teens in my life about Landmark and to stay away from them. In fact they knew me when I was in Landmark and saw what happened to me. Because of this they are like "Hell F-in NO" when it comes to Landmark. They know that Landmark is manipulative and I have described to them the techniques Landmark uses to get in a persons head.

[...]

I receive more complaints about Landmark Education than almost any other group listed at this site, which includes hundreds of groups listed.

Approximately 100k people do the Forum per year. How many complaints did you get in 2007? Can you vaguely recall? I want to know.

IMO--Landmark isn't safe for adults, let alone kids.

Is going to a synagouge, church or a mosque and being preached to about the meaning of life by someone who bleeds just as red as you any safer?

All you are doing here is pissing on an organization that hasn't done anything to you personally. As I understand it, they even offered that you go through the Forum yourself so that you can see "what it is". You refused. Therefore, at best, you have an approximation of what it might be - and it's anything BUT what you think it is - I can only tell you that much. The word "cult-like" was the furthest from my mind while I attended the Forum. I felt more liberated than EVER before in my life.

Now you can go an mudsling LE all you want... or summon the courage and do it, and then we can talk...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2008 09:26PM by rrmoderator.