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socrates
:shock: :idea: :arrow: for whatever it is worth, you might enjoy looking at this fine work of great literature:

[www.cultsecrets.com]

I hope you're being sarcastic because books like that are exactly the reason why ex-staffers won't give any info out. They don't want to give anyone enough info to write any books on how to mulipulate people.

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socrates
Your attitude is fatalistic and your position is incorrect. I nicely fucked up a Six Day training and I knew exactly what I was doing. I out thought them and broke their trances. Well and thoroughly. The trainers themselves didn't even know what was going on until the last minute, and by then it was too late. The key point is NOT that you possess raw intelligence or not. The key is that you understand Eriksonian hypnosis on a fairly high level AND you know how to bounce yourself out of trance. Most people don't, but then, as I said, most people are appallingly lazy when it comes to consciousness issues. No, they are not impervious beings. No, they can't update or modify their work that quickly. They may change some specific ornamentation, but they MUST, repeat MUST adhere to the form of trance consciousness dynamics. If you really know trance dynamics, surface presentation can be changed all you want, and you can still navigate trances. Yes, you MUST have direct, personal training with real masters before you can do this. That means you must be willing to invest the time and energy in finding these people and working with them or studying under them. Amateurs need not apply.

I understand now why Corboy wrote the response he did. Socrates, did the thought ever cross your mind that your reaction might have caused greater confusion or more psychological damage than the original course to the other participants???????? If you actually did want you say you did, then you actions were nothing but irresponsible and dangerous. Yeah, sure it seems like a fun idea to f*** with the leader's head, but what about the heads of the participants watching you f*** with the leader's head? Did you really think you're argument would total negate everything the leader said? Sounds like you're an egomaniac to me.

By contrast, Alexis, I think the point Socrates was trying to make is that the "worst" that we fear has already been done, and then some. Meaning, that it's already out there for someone who wants to find it, and not discussing it openly here isn't going to prevent that. It may however, help someone to recognize when these tricks are being deployed on them, so they can back away carefully. Look at the proliferation of LGATS out there, more are cropping up all the time, and the public is largely unaware of the true nature of these organizations.

While I agree with you that "infiltrating" a training room has it's dangers, both for the person doing it and for the other particpants, if a skilled person can continually "break the trance" of the audience, they are enabling those participants to keep their critical thinking skills intact for at least a bit longer. It seems from my own research that the only people who come out of a training relatively unscathed are those that don't go into trance. For those people, the programming doesn't stick, because they were not in a trance state for it to be internalized into their subconscious.

Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting anyone actually do this! Few and far between are those capable of maintaining their sense of self in a training room.

"I understand now why Corboy wrote the response he did. Socrates, did the thought ever cross your mind that your reaction might have caused greater confusion or more psychological damage than the original course to the other participants????????"

Trust me, baby, I know EXACTLY what I'm doing.
We're not simple bumkins, you see !


" If you actually did want you say you did, then you actions were nothing but irresponsible and dangerous."

OK, my naive but all knowing, and seemingly telepathic friend, PROVE IT.
In what SPECIFIC ways were they irresponsible and dangerous ?

They would be if they were based on ignorance. I did a SPECIFIC piece of trance work that had healthy outcomes.


"Yeah, sure it seems like a fun idea to f*** with the leader's head, but what about the heads of the participants watching you f*** with the leader's head?

Oh, don't worry. I didn't "fuck with their heads"... I repatterened a series of anchors that returned them to a state of crystal clear first position awareness. it wasn't fun. It was hard and accurate work.

"Did you really think you're argument would total negate everything the leader said? Sounds like you're an egomaniac to me."

Yes, I am an egomaniac. No, I didn't have to negate everything the leader said. I reset SPECIFIC anchors so REGARDLESS of all the things the trainer said, the participants would be returned to a state of high quality first position awareness.

As I previously, and egomaniacally stated, amateurs need not apply. :lol:

At this point it seems important to make some points and distinctions.

Landmark has awell-documented troubled history, which is reflected through numerous press articles, reports and personal testimonies. They have been sued for personal injury and there are breakdowns reported.

I would not recommend taking the risk of attending such a troubled program under any circumstances.

It is certainly not necessary, as there are many alternatives such as licensed mental health professionals for counseling, licensed marriage and family counselors, support groups through established community social services and continuing education available through local colleges.

All these resources, unlike Landmark have properly trained, credentialed, licensed and supervised staff that can effectively be held accountable by participants.

This provides safety.

Don't think you can outsmart them.

This is not a game and the inherent reported risks are quite serious.

Clinical psychologist Philip Cushman researched this subject and offered a paper about the pattern of historical problems posed by "mass marathon training" (otherwise known as LGATs).

See [www.culteducation.com]

Cults and controversial LGATs take in smart well-educated people all the time.

For example, a brilliant surgeon was the focus of one intervention I handled regarding Landmark Education.

It appears that some of the discussion lately implies that if you "think harder" you can somehow immunize yourself regarding the effects of an LGAT.

Common sense would seem to dictate, why bother?

Also such advice appears to imply that the victims of LGATs may be responsible for the damage done to them within such programs, i.e. if they had only "thought harder" it would not have happened.

In my experience this is not true.

Caught within such a milieu the participant is not in control, the LGAT is. And the environment lends itself to the group leader's coercive persuasion techniques.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Again, common sense would seem to lead people away from the needless risks linked to involvement with such groups.

At this point some distinctions also seem important.

Anyone that have been hurt by Landmark and feels they need to pursue a recovery program, would be best served by getting help from a qualified mental health professional, preferably someone with specific experience treating the victims of LGATs.

This message board is not for psychological counseling.

People who need such help should seek out a qualified professional.

This message board was meant for the exchange of general information and/or discussion about controversial groups, movements and leaders.

And of course for former members to share their experiences etc.

This board is not meant to somehow replace the services offered by a licensed mental facility or mental health professional.

Rick,

Point taken in regards to the need for us not to use this board in ways that are better left to a mental health professional. I apologize for putting you in a position of risk in that regard.

That being said, in my own experience, there are no mental health professionals in my area that even know about these things, much less are experienced in them. Our therapist a year ago was completely clueless, and the one we have now, while much better, is having to educated herself in order to try to help us. We do not have the means to travel to therapy, so we are going to have to do some of this work ourselves. I don't think we are alone or unusual in this.

I want to know all I can. I want to be able to help all I can. This forum and your site have been my best resources. It seems natural to perhaps expand it beyond it's intended purpose into specific areas that perhaps are inappropriate, but that are lacking elsewhere.

Do you have any thoughts on the issue of the unprepared therapy community?

LoriS:

There are some resources for recovery and support listed on the Links page under "Recovery and Support."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Wellspring Retreat is a licensed mental health facility with two clinical psychologists on staff. They are an excellent resource for mental health professionals to turn to for advice on treatment.

Bill and Lorna Goldberg of New Jersey are well-recognized professional counselors with more than twenty years of experience and are also good resources.

Books on the subject such as "Crazy Therapies" and "Cults in Our Midst" by clinical psychologist Margaret Singer can provide a reference to better understand the dynamics of such groups and recovery issues.

See these relevant sections within the RI database:

[www.culteducation.com]

[www.culteducation.com]

[www.culteducation.com]

The important thing to remember is to seek help when needed in recovery from trained and qualified professionals.

And again this message board is not for treatment.

Socrates last post is very disturbing.

Unless he is a trained mental health professional with the proper credentials he should not be supposedly "repattern[ing] a series of anchors that return...[people] to a state of crystal clear first position awareness," whatever that is.

If he doesn't have the professional training and licensing, he really isn't qualified to do such "work."

And this board is not a place to dispense treatment, even from mental health professionals.

Treatment should be handled in a professional setting such as a licensed facility, clinic or qualified counselor's office.

Sorry. Powerful thought can be disturbing. Disturbing to illusions, disturbing to the settled order of things. Maybe what is actually disturbing is that there is knowledge you don't understand, knowledge you never knew existed. Doesn't make you wrong. Doesn't make you bad. You might have to accept though, that some people have been places you haven't, and they have done things you have difficulty imagining. Doesn't make me wrong or bad either. I used a form of knowledge effectively. I used it in a way that you have insisted cannot be done. People often find things disturbing that they cannot control, especially that they cannot control imaginatively, that is to say, you can't form a clear image of what I'm talking about, how it might work, and that is a source of anxiety.

Perhaps some felt that way about electric lights, or radios, or the internal combustion engine.

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socrates
They would be if they were based on ignorance. I did a SPECIFIC piece of trance work that had healthy outcomes.

And I suppose you had a scientific study, reviewed by the scientific community to back up your claim?? Did you do follow-up studies with the participants at 1, 5, 10, 20 year intervals? Your approach was not done as a double-blind study. How can you really be sure your subjective view is not clouding the outcome you claim to have produced?

Go crap your superiority complex on someone who thinks you're as intelligent as you obviously think you are, cause it's not working here.

Landmark is a waste and only messes up peoples minds more than they already are. If you need self help or therapy then go to a therapist . Someone who is qualified and not going to mess with your head.

Socrates:

Please try to understand that this board is not about you, your "powerful thought," "knowlege" or the "places" you believe you have been to.

This board is about specific controversial groups, leaders and movements. And members posting here are focused on that area of interest.

If you cannot stay on topic and continue going on about your personal philosophies and treatments/cures, your posts will be deleted and you may be excluded from the board.