well, I must disagree about that point as far as my personal experience is concerned. I listened to Sugrue's Plato course and read some of the Dialogs long after my EST experience. I found it to be wonderfully liberating. 5th century BC Athens was infested with cultic types, the Sophists. Plato's Socrates would be very much like an interviewer in today's media. He sits these guys down and keeps asking them questions until the incoherence or dishonesty or ignorance behind their grand theories is exposed. In an early dialog he "interviews" the equivalent of a rock star, Ion (today would be like Johnny) who sings about the glory of war, but on close questioning doesn't know the first thing about the realities of war. Reading a few dialogs would be dry and distant by themselves. Being engaged in the Dialogs, having teachers who could show their ESSENTIAL value in mental survival, listening to them, improvising your own, etc are precisely what stops sophism in its tracks. EST/LEC Forum are part of a long Sophist tradition.

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corboy
you cannot 'think your way out of a cult'.

Well, yes and no.

To physically leave landmark, I had to think of what I would say to them to repel their advances for keeping me there. I left very abruptly without any implicit help/advice from anyone. Family and friends concerns fed my mind unconsciously until I sorted it all out. Believe me when I say that I caused that landmark center lots of turmoil when I left. My roommate, who got me involved with landmark, refused to talk to me for the rest of the lease.

To get their jargon out of my head, I had to have a professional point me in the right direction and ground me in reality.

There was an incredible amount of thinking involved, but indeed, I didn't do it entirely by myself.

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I will say that I have a concern for blaming-the-victim posts I see sometimes on this board. I'm sure that landmark didn't invent the idea, but oh, how they love to blame the victim. Sure we all know one person in our lives who uses any injustice against them to milk it for all they can get, but to believe that everyone who has been victimized is at fault is crazy.

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Socrates, how old is your neighbors' daughter? Maybe the teacher relationship is what she is used to? Maybe she just isn't curious enough yet to be compelled to study such subjects on her own? Not everyone is interested in studying philosophy. Ok, lots of people are not interested in philosophy. Sorry, but your attitude reminds me of the hard-ass est/forum beliefs. Maybe your should cut the girl some slack and realize that not everyone will fill the opinion of how you think they should be. That was definitely something I had to reclaim after landmark, to accept people for who they were and not how I thought they should be according to landmark's jargon.

"Sorry, but your attitude reminds me of the hard-ass est/forum beliefs."

That's too bad. I came by my hard assed thinking the old fashioned way. I got sick of watching people let themselves be mentally raped, OK ? The way you don't get mentally raped is you learn to think hard, you don't make nicey nice because some creepy peer pressure gig tells you to make nicey nice while a sick freak on a major power trip feels like running his fingers through your brain cells.

this like will take you to an NLP site which details the "pieces of the manipulation machine". LEC actively uses these pieces for their ends, NLP uses them for other ends. You must understand that you are dealing with a "meaning making machine" and that machine is made up of components. Here they are. Pay close attention to:

"Nominalization: A linguistic distinction in the Meta-Model, a hypnotic pattern of trance language, a process or verb turned into an (abstract) noun, a process frozen in time"

Nominalization is one of the most central language patterns used by LEC/EST, and many others. Once you know what Nominalization IS, and what Nominalization DOES to active thought processes, you will have a much better grip on what Landmark DID to your thought processes.

Nominalization has also been referred to in the past as REIFICATION.

Same manoeuvre. A complex process or something unfolding over time is "nouned".... sooooooo.... some sequence of messed up events, bad decisions, etc.... becomes, LECwise, a fixed noun, an "upset". Please make careful note, the repeated use of Nominalizations in language patterns, over and over again, have powerful THOUGHT STOPPING effects.

[www.neurosemantics.com]

Socrates seems to imply that it's possible to outthink LGATs like Landmark and someone properly briefed will be immune to their techniques.

At this point it seems important to point out the obvious.

Why engage them at all?

Landmark, Lifespring, EST, the Forum, Sterling Institute of Relationship are all LGATs listed within the Ross Institute database.

See [www.culteducation.com]

They have well-documented troubled histories, which is reflected through numerous press articles, reports and personal testimonies. Some have been sued for personal injury and there are breakdowns reported.

So why take the risk by attending such troubled programs?

It is certainly not necessary, as there are many alternatives such as licensed mental health professionals for counseling, licensed marriage and family counselors, support groups through established community social services and continuing education available through local colleges.

All these resources, unlike LGATs, have properly trained, credentialed, licensed and supervised staff that can effectively be held accountable by participants.

This provides safety.

And why would anyone want to attend an LGAT that requires you to sign paperwork that essentially relinquishes civil rights, such as free speech, or to sue someone in open court with a jury?

It seems unwise, given the reported problems and circumstances easily accessible, to even begin to engage these LGATs.

Don't think you can outsmart them.

This is not a game and the inherent reported risks are quite serious.

Clinical psychologist Philip Cushman researched this subject and offered a paper about the pattern of historical problems posed by "mass marathon training" (otherwise known as LGATs).

See [www.culteducation.com]

Please understand that David Koresh's second in command Wayne Martin was a Harvard Law School graduate. And a MD mixed the "Kool-Aid" at Jonestown.

Cults and controversial LGATs take in smart well-educated people all the time.

For example, a brilliant surgeon was the focus of one intervention I handled regarding Landmark Education.

It seems important to point all this out.

It appears that some of the discussion lately implies that if you "think harder" you can somehow immunize yourself regarding the effects of an LGAT.

Common sense would seem to dictate, why bother?

Also such advice appears to imply that the victims of LGATs may be responsible for the damage done to them within such programs, i.e. if they had only "thought harder" it would not have happened.

In my experience this is not true.

Caught within such a milieu the participant is not in control, the LGAT is. And the environment lends itself to the group leader's coercive persuasion techniques.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Again, common sense would seem to lead people away from the needless risks linked to involvement with such groups.

Knowledge is Power.

The critical piece to think about here is that EST/Landmark and Wernerism (is that aphilosophy, a religion, or a fashion statement ?) are NOT confined to the classroom, so to speak. Their cognitive styles, means of describing things, languaging things, even the peculiar intonations of their voices, have generalized into our culture as a whole.

You don't need to attend a training to be regularly exposed to fragments of Wernerism. You hear it everywhere, all the time, in the media, in day to day speech.

That is the larger sense of the verb "To Enroll". their ultimate aim is something like a culture wide religious conversion. That is what was EXPLICITLY stated in one of the advanced courses I attended.

EXPLICITLY, OK ? Their stated goal was to bring about the total transformation of humanity. Including you, me, and the cockroaches that dwell under my kitchen sink.

Please wake up, willya ? This isn't some parlor game of one small dissident website versus a crank barnfull of holy rollers. This is a fundamental debate between entire frames of what your humanity means.

You have to bring to your lived life very powerful distinctions and understandings of precisely HOW "language thinks you". You see, that is one of their core beliefs, directly descended from Phenomenology.... LANGUAGE THINKS YOU.... yeah, I know, that sounds like bizarre mumbo jumbo.... but they deeply believe it and they INTEND that thir language will eventually "think" the entire culture.

The way out of this icky little fish trap set for feeble minds is to learn to hear their language ON A HIGHER LOGICAL LEVEL... when you master that art, their language trances break down. They abjectly fail and they cannot be recovered. They lose all their power. For that reason, we MUST discuss their language EXPLICITLY and we MUST understand it on a higher logical level.

I would submit to you that you are still locked into their structure in some way, shape, or form if that can keep you playing THEIR game on their LOGICAL LEVEL.

Socrates:

I am not personally, but instead professionally concerned about Landmark and other LGATs.

The Ross Institute (RI) database has thousands of documents about hundreds of groups, movements and leaders.

Landmark is actually only one relatively small subsection, though the group does generate substantial complaints.

The concern of this website is education (i.e. RI is an educational nonprofit), not philosophy, nor is it concerned with "what your humanity means."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note that there is a rule regarding proselytizing on this message board, which would include recruiting for a specific identified philosophy as well as a religion.

Your analogy that Landmark is a "icky little fish trap set for feeble minds" is dead wrong and again sounds like victim bashing.

It may be a "trap," but very well developed highly honed minds are often caught within it.

Please refrain from victim bashing.

And no one "must discuss [Landmark's] language explicitly and...must understand it on a higher logical level."

The more obvious response for most people approached by Landmark devotees is to simply blow them off.

And for those that have been hurt by Landmark and feel they need to pursue a recovery program, they are best served by getting help from a qualified mental health professional, preferably with experience treating the victims of LGATs.

This brings out another important point.

This message board is not for psychological counseling.

People who need such help should seek out a qualified professional.

This message board was meant for the exchange of general information and/or discussion about controversial groups, movements and leaders.

And of course for former members to share their experiences etc.

This board is not meant to somehow replace the proper services offered by a licensed mental facility or mental health professional.

hmmmmmm..... that certainally is an interesting perspective....:

"And no one "must discuss [Landmark's] language explicitly and...must understand it on a higher logical level."

Really now ? Why do you say that ?

"The concern of this website is education (i.e. RI is an educational nonprofit), not philosophy, nor is it concerned with "what your humanity means."

Most curious, indeed. Please tell us, then, if it is not education to speak to the philosphies of one's subject, especially if one's subject IS, in essence their philosophies, how could one possibly possible "educate" a third part without addressing their philosophies ?


"This message board was meant for the exchange of general information and/or discussion about controversial groups, movements and leaders. "

Could you then distinguish between "general information" and "specific information" ? How do the two differ ? What is the meaning behind the difference?

"nor is it concerned with "what your humanity means."

There is something faintly tragic in that statement.

"Note that there is a rule regarding proselytizing on this message board, which would include recruiting for a specific identified philosophy as well as a religion" Ummmm... Proselytising for what, pray tell ?

Socrates:

Just wanted to warn you about the rules and parameters of this message board.

This is a moderated board and it does have rules/guidelines.

Those who repeatedly break the rules may have their posts blocked/deleted and/or eventually be excluded.

that's ok with me. Let me explain something about me. I have made consciousness exploration a major part of my life. I have tremendous respect for what it can mean when done in a powerful and coherent way. I also have experienced deep revulsion at at abuses of consciousness that I have seen. I'm not saying the things I say from random disgruntlement. These are based on a life time of my own experience. I know full well what innocent people are up against. The struggle to own one's own mind is not easy. Comfortable, pat answers aren't enough. Throway lines, ten second sound bites, and philosophical song and dance acts won't cut it. It takes more. being a fully formed human being takes more.