I write this post absolutely broken hearted, horrified, nauseated and exhausted. I need some support here, please, from anyone who can give it.

I'v broken up with my boyfriend (I hate that word, he was far more to me than that) over Landmark.

I thought he was my true love, but now of course I can see that he is not what I thought at all. We've been together for 8 months, and we were very much in love, but of course there were many signs that he was unstable -- he'd had a breakdown once, psychiatry, etc. I thought it was all in the past, but I was a fool who didn't want to see what was in front of me.

Plus, he told me it was in the past. He said he was strong. Now he admits that he lied. Now he says he's really weak. He says he needs Landmark.

He'd been seeing this "Life Coach" which seemed like a bunch of bullshit to me. She recommended Landmark to him. I looked it up and found out it was "est" reincarnate. I couldn't BELIEVE it. I thought est was dead!!!

But no, no. It is very much alive.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I've spent a week or more in hell. I tried everything to talk him out of it, and I sent him REAMS of information about est and Landmark, a lot of it from this site.

He ignored it. He ignored me.

He went, and now he's a fucking believer. He's spouting jargon. He's talking rackets and stories and authenticity. And he is more confused than ever about the nature of reality. He thinks life is meaningless and empty. He can't connect with me AT ALL anymore and he doesn't even begin to acknowledge my heart break and pain.

Where did the man go with whom I was in love, and who loved me, he said, with everything he had? Where is the man who seemed capable of rational thought and had a functioning bullshit detector? The man who didn't want to spend a lot of money on things because he's ALREADY in credit card debt?? Now he's throwing his money at this awful scheme.

He's gone, I've lost him, and in his place is this quivering weakling who can't think for himself at all. He seems incapable of rational discernment and like he WANTS to be brainwashed by Landmark.

I'm so horrified. I don't believe in anything Landmark teaches. I think they're a sick, sinister money making mind-fucking machine for weak willed people who haven't a clue as to who they are and what life is about, who can't deal with reality, and need an escape.

God, that will offend a lot of people here, who have done the Forum. I'm sorry about that. It's how it looks to me, from the outside, and anyway in his case it is absolutely the truth. He basically admits it. It's like he has no shame about it, and doesn't care who knows it.

I thought he loved me, I thought I brought out the best in him. He knows how I feel about all of this, but it doesn't seem to matter at all. He just signed up for the "advanced course."

My heart is broken. He's gone forever. How do I cope with this? I feel like I"m in the Twilight Zone.

I'm really of the opinion that we really need to formulate a method by which we can break through to Landmark indoctrinees.

The biggest problem is that LGATs such as Landmark Education are essentially large group brainwashing, and it's impossible to tell a brainwashing victim that they have been brainwashed. They just don't (and can't) believe you.

Of course, these people are tellingly big on the headlines (Landmark changed my life) but incredibly lacking on the detail (unable to tell you exactly why or how).

Something that comes up repeatedly is the change in behaviour of the LE victims. They become self-centred jerks.

I'm just throwing an idea up here for everyone to comment on: Would it be of value to make a home video of this person, talking to them and interacting. This would be an example of them as they were. Post-LE when their ability to think has been stunted, one could replay this video to them so that they could at least see themselves as they were before. Or has LE pre-programmed them to counter for this possibility?

Everyone please contribute.

John

What has stunned me the most is that this very intelligent, or so I thought, person is just unwilling to examine all the information against Landmark.

Before he took the course, he didn't want to go to their website. He was afraid of what he'd see there! He wouldn't even tell me the name of what he was going to, but I sluethed it out myself and then all hell broke loose.

So it's like some people are so desperate that they will willingly close their eyes and walk into the fire if they think it will relieve their pain on some level. They'll try anything.

Of course Landmark relieves some pain, because it tells them things that are impossible! Like, you can be at ease in any situation, you can be free and courageous all the time, you can be free of your past -- all in ONE WEEKEND.

Wow! How amazing! It sounds too good to be true . . . . AND IT IS!!!!

It's a load of CRAP!!!

I've never witnessed human behavior like this in my life. He's shameless about this, even about spending all this money. It's like he has no value system. Just think of what could be done with all the money spent on these self-aggrandizing programs!

I think also, he isn't content to be who he is. He needs to be something MORE than who he is. Some Uber man, some demi god, I don't know. He can't just be himself, and Landmark caters to that, because now you are not yourself, you are a new POSSIBILITY for . . . . whatever.

What helps me the most is deconstructing Landmark theories and premises. There is a thread on this board that does this, and I would appreciate ANY more insight into this from people who have gotten out.

Stories, rackets, authenticity, all their buzzwords -- what do they really mean? We tell our loved ones it's a bunch of bullshit but we need to be able to clearly articulate why because they can't see it for themselves. It's like . . . SO OBVIOUS . . . but since they need it spelled out for them, we need to be able to spell it.

Any help in doing this would be appreciated.

To me, it is a really twisted over-simplification of somewhat esoteric concepts, taken out of the context of their original cultures and traditions, and re-packaged for an impatient and confused and ego-driven American culture. The result is an almost crippling lack of understanding of reality and, I think, the beginnings of a sociopathic mental breakdown.

Already, after one weekend, I can see this happening, because he is now removed from me in a way he'd never been before, and unwilling to hear me, and uncaring about my heart and feelings for the first time ever.

It's such a mind-fuck, because he's telling me he hoped the Forum would improve our relationship -- which is really only being held back by his fear of commitment, so he had said. But I told him, it would NOT improve it, because I don't WANT to have a relationship with a jargon spouting LANDMARK ROBOT!!!

AND THAT"S WHAT HE IS NOW!!!

He came out of that damn Forum TRANSFORMED, and guess what he did right away? He tried to recruit me! ME!! And I had specifically told him not to EVER do that!

Oh, but it's out of love, of course. He says he hopes now we can have a "real" connection. WHAT THE HELL WERE WE HAVING????

He's spouting jargon left and right, which I know he doesn't even understand, and he just shelled out another $850 (gasp, choke) for the Advanced Course. It's just the beginning.

Well, anyway. He won't listen to anything, and I can see that this will really mess with his obviously impressionable head and take over his life, and he will keep pushing me away because now I am a threat to him because I don't believe in what he's doing. He'll meet some screwed up Landmark woman and live happily and "authentically" ever after.

Someone knock me over the head with a brick. I need to be unconscious for a while.

He is not gone forever - what might happen is that when the mindcontrolled induced high wears of he may snap out of it.

What you can do is talk to mutual friends and warn them - he will be told to recruit new forumparticipants and when they are contacted by him they can tell him that they know it's a brainwashing scheme. Maybe he will become confused.

I don't know if that will work but at least you can do something to stop others from getting sucked in.

I am sorry for your loss. I was heavily involved with landmark 1994-98 being a leader. I now hate them with all my heart. They manipulated me and made me think they had the answer to everything.

Landmark has closed their office in my country but I hate it when I have to read about what you are describing.

It is very hard to reach through to an individual that has gone through the first couple of courses. But some people start to see that the whole thing is a recruiting game and that pisses some landmarkers off to the point where they quit. Especially when they get to the so-called SELP (Self expression and leadership program) or the IFL (introduction to the forum leadership program).

But for now my best advice is to be patient and wait for him to snap out of it. But prepare for a total loss as well. Try to warn other people around him (some revenge on Landmark).

Out of the 10 people I had to recruit to become a leader within landmark 1 person killed himself 2 years after taking the Forumcourse. I cannot prove it was because his landmarkinvolvement but he is not the only one.

BR
nettie

Quote
vlinden
I write this post absolutely broken hearted, horrified, nauseated and exhausted. I need some support here, please, from anyone who can give it.

I'v broken up with my boyfriend (I hate that word, he was far more to me than that) over Landmark.

I thought he was my true love, but now of course I can see that he is not what I thought at all. We've been together for 8 months, and we were very much in love, but of course there were many signs that he was unstable -- he'd had a breakdown once, psychiatry, etc. I thought it was all in the past, but I was a fool who didn't want to see what was in front of me.

Plus, he told me it was in the past. He said he was strong. Now he admits that he lied. Now he says he's really weak. He says he needs Landmark.

He'd been seeing this "Life Coach" which seemed like a bunch of bullshit to me. She recommended Landmark to him. I looked it up and found out it was "est" reincarnate. I couldn't BELIEVE it. I thought est was dead!!!

But no, no. It is very much alive.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I've spent a week or more in hell. I tried everything to talk him out of it, and I sent him REAMS of information about est and Landmark, a lot of it from this site.

He ignored it. He ignored me.

He went, and now he's a fucking believer. He's spouting jargon. He's talking rackets and stories and authenticity. And he is more confused than ever about the nature of reality. He thinks life is meaningless and empty. He can't connect with me AT ALL anymore and he doesn't even begin to acknowledge my heart break and pain.

Where did the man go with whom I was in love, and who loved me, he said, with everything he had? Where is the man who seemed capable of rational thought and had a functioning bullshit detector? The man who didn't want to spend a lot of money on things because he's ALREADY in credit card debt?? Now he's throwing his money at this awful scheme.

He's gone, I've lost him, and in his place is this quivering weakling who can't think for himself at all. He seems incapable of rational discernment and like he WANTS to be brainwashed by Landmark.

I'm so horrified. I don't believe in anything Landmark teaches. I think they're a sick, sinister money making mind-fucking machine for weak willed people who haven't a clue as to who they are and what life is about, who can't deal with reality, and need an escape.

God, that will offend a lot of people here, who have done the Forum. I'm sorry about that. It's how it looks to me, from the outside, and anyway in his case it is absolutely the truth. He basically admits it. It's like he has no shame about it, and doesn't care who knows it.

I thought he loved me, I thought I brought out the best in him. He knows how I feel about all of this, but it doesn't seem to matter at all. He just signed up for the "advanced course."

My heart is broken. He's gone forever. How do I cope with this? I feel like I"m in the Twilight Zone.

This is exactly what I went thru when my wife left me for PSI Seminars.

I'm so sorry Steve. When? How are you coping?

Quote
vlinden
To me, it is a really twisted over-simplification of somewhat esoteric concepts, taken out of the context of their original cultures and traditions, and re-packaged for an impatient and confused and ego-driven American culture. The result is an almost crippling lack of understanding of reality and, I think, the beginnings of a sociopathic mental breakdown.

Hi vlinden,

Good description above. For the zillionth time, I wish my sister would read and consider it. But, alas, I have written her off. It wasn't landmark that got her, but another generic (a lifespring-spinoff) lgat. And, I'm the one who recruited her! I think, though, that the leader got his tentacles much deeper into my sister because she has deeper pockets (and it paid off for him, he hit a jackpot with her). And/or I think she had more desperation than I did to relieve pain. She did as you said: willingly closed her eyes and walked into fire in an effort to relieve pain. And six years later she's keeping her eyes closed, maybe to avoid seeing the truth that the lgat lied about the pain relief.

In the months & years that followed her Transformation-In-Six-Days, I too witnessed human behavior I had NEVER seen from her, for half a century together. I was in the twilight zone for a couple years, as I didn't know what the F*CK was going on between us; I knew nothing about lgats. When I discovered lgat information, it all started to make sense.

At which time, I told her what I was discovering, and she informed me that she was not going to discuss it. Also (rewinding back two years), just when she became a believer is just when I started becoming a disbeliever. I was starting to see some things wrong with the ideology and I wanted to examine it with her. She refused. That was not the sister she used to be. We used to spend hours analyzing everything and anything. Her behavior and her refusal to talk to me about thoughts & concerns I was having about the lgat contributed to my trance-breaking.

And, yes, you are considered a threat by landmark. Since you are a non-believer, there is the *possibility* that you could influence your friend, which would mean that landmark loses a slave-recruiter. I have been looking at how and why lgats, by design, divide people. They MUST divide out those who are critical, who still can THINK & SEE, who don't agree, etc. because their views could threaten the trance-formation of the lgat subjects.

I relate to your posts and I like how you say it. And I am very sorry for what landmark is putting you through. I think your idea to write about it is great, and is a good way to work through the horror of the twilight zone. It is a shocking thing to experience, and I appreciate your writings about it.

skeptic



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2008 10:19AM by skeptic.

vlinden
your description is EXACTLY how my wife was after attending Discovery Training in Dallas. She too was very intelligent, and would never buy into this thing. I did see a glimpse of hope a few times when I would force her to talk to me and use critical thinking. By this I mean not using the jargon (living by your heart…). I would ask what she meant when she would say “I acknowledge you, I experience you…” Critical thinking seemed to jolt her out of the LGAT mindset. I believe if her mother and sister had not continued to reinforce the discovery contract/commitment on her she might have realized what was happening.
Our marriage finally ended when she demanded the only way to save our marriage was for me to attend all of the discovery mind control weekends.
Just as in your case, she knew I was very much against the whole LGAT thing, it was shocking for her to even think I would go.

EC

Thank you to everyone who has posted here.

I've become somewhat obsessed by LGATs ever since this happened. I have a background as a researcher and I've worked for independent newspapers, my interests have always been political, but I'm becoming fascinated and DEEPLY disturbed by this new reality that has now crossed my path. I've spent nearly 2 weeks straight -- and I mean straight -- reading about LGATs and reading the posts on this board.

I want to know how big the world of LGATs is. How many groups are there, how many people do they impact? What is the spectrum of destruction they cause? How many people are at the far end, leaving their families and destroying their lives? There's probably no follow up on these people.

Are there no regulations to govern this industry?

What can be done get LGATs on the FBI "cult" list?

I know they don't fit within certain parameters of a cult, but in many ways I think they're far more insidious. I'm trying to learn enough to be able to articulate why this is true.

We on this list know that they use mind control techniques, including group hypnosis, they seek to infiltrate the subject's life, keep them locked into the group, and take staggering sums of their money. They effect the psyche and belief systems of the subjects in ways that can be destabilizing, and exactly what they are teaching is, of course, a load of illogical bullshit, but of course people are "free" to believe whatever they want. However, if it leads to people jumping off cliffs thinking they can fly or committing mass suicide, the cult squad can be called in. Well what if it leads to people quitting their jobs, abandoning their families and ruining their lives?

My ex boyfriend falls squarely into the category of people who are most influenced by these groups, I can see that now. I know my anger over this has pushed him away even further, so I regret it, but of course I was talking to him like the strong man I thought he was, now I know I should've been treating him with kid gloves like a mental patient.
If anything just to save him from losing his money.

Money has been so important to him, he is in debt and was working hard and diligently to pay it off. He had two years to go. Just before this happened he was debating whether we could afford to take a vacation together that would have cost around $1500. He's spent more than that on Landmark in less than 2 weeks. It's stunning.

In responding to my concerns he has said many things that I now recognize as being implanted in his brain by Landmark. Including "oh, don't worry, it's just people talking."

Just people talking??

Yeah, well so is a neo-nazi youth group, so is the floor of Congress, you get my point. Everything is just people talking -- WHAT are they talking about and WHY. What is that talk DOING.

So far I've heard him say things that reveal a level of irresponsibility I'd never seen before. When I showed him the post of someone on this board who was furious about their years lost to an LGAT, he amazingly criticized the person, saying he didn't see why the guy had to be so upset. So, he spent 10 years and a bunch of money on something he thinks is silly, can't he just say screw it and let it go?

Is this the kind of value system instilled by LGATs? That 10 years of your life and a lot of money is something you toss off like it doesn't mean anything?

I can't fathom this mentality.

I wrote to him last night and told him that I had to believe, if he would be willing to research LGATs as I am doing, that he would see the level of damage they're responsible for and he would not want to have anything to do with them. I reminded him that he was unwilling to look at Landmark's website before he went to the seminar, indiciating he had a feeling he wouldn't like what he saw, but he wanted to do it anyway. That was the first sign that something was wrong, to me. I said, you don't walk down the street with blinders on, do you? Why would you get involved with something you don't even want to look at that closely?

I don't understand this level of irresponsibility.

Now, he says he getting benefit out of the courses. I see that I should engage him in discussion about it and find out what he thinks is so beneficial. The problem for me is that the whole thing is pathetic and embarrassing to me, and this is the man who was, up until recently, my lover. I have a hard time stomaching this.

I am someone who, on instinct combined with common sense, stays WELL away from anything like LGATs. Seeing that my ex did not have either good instincts or common sense drove a huge wedge between us. You might think I'm hard or unloving, but I'm not. I love him and my heart is broken. But I know what I want in my life, as far as a partner goes. I've never been with anyone naive enough to get suckered like this. My father would roll over in his grave if he thought I was spending thousands of dollars to get manipulated like this. I surround myself with strong, common sense, but open minded people.

It seems to me that lack of cultural and family stability and lack of a deeply rooted religious tradition leads many people -- especially Americans -- into things like this. Looking for answers and relief from pain. However, for me, I'm okay with not having all the answers, I'm okay with accepting my life with its limitations, knowing that there's something bigger than I am in control of the whole thing, and giving thanks for what life has given me. I don't know why this wasn't enough for my ex.

He wanted more. He wanted to be free from his perceived pain and suffering. He couldn't integrate it into his person. And maybe there is something juvenile in him screaming for attention, which these LGATs provide.

I've realized that . . . it's like we have buttons inside us that are there for a reason, and these LGATs stimulate them to an unhealthy degree. Everyone wants to end suffering, be more and better, let go of things that are holding us back. We have those instincts and desires for a reason. But they are part of a whole and balanced human being, who is also tempered by reality and concern for other people around them. The LGAT experience seems to be powerful and destabilizing, pressing on those buttons full force for prolonged periods of time, releasing certain chemicals into the brain, causing people to act radically and without the usual forethought and considerations.

My ex was elated that he had a "breakthrough" with regard to his family, right away. Part of me wonders, how much of that breakthrough was for his family, and how much was for himself. The whole thing seems very self centered when it comes down to it. HE felt better about his family. His brother didn't make him nervous like he usually did when he came over to visit. Well, great. I can't argue with that. But what about me? Since he decided to do the LGAT he's been ignoring my desperate screams to listen to all the negative information I've been providing him about these groups. I told him I couldn't be with him if he was going to go down this road, and his response was to let me go. Suddenly he has so little interest in my considered opinion, and whereas once my aching heart would've made his ache the same way, he seems able to divorce himself from the pain this has caused me.

Did my relationship really mean so little to him? I suppose so. But this was the man who told me he "loved me with everything he had" and that I was the most important thing in his life. But suddenly his "pain" is more important than I am, and so is Landmark. I told him angrily that it seemed he needed Landmark more than he needed me. He didn't argue. He said he hoped we could talk again someday.

I don't know if he'll ever understand how he hurt me.

I can't compare to the drug-like high Landmark is giving him, I guess. And I represent responsibility and human problems, and I guess Landmark represents freedom from pain or something. So I've lost this war before the first shot.

He even called to tell me that he thought a seminar would help me with my back pain and my endometriosis, which is a disease. A disease requiring medical care. You know, a doctor. I need a chiropracter and a gynecologist, not a $500 seminar.

I can't believe what has happened to his mind.

Quote
vlinden
However, if it leads to people jumping off cliffs thinking they can fly or committing mass suicide, the cult squad can be called in. Well what if it leads to people quitting their jobs, abandoning their families and ruining their lives?

This is a good point. Perhaps lgats don't sound alarms because the adverse effects aren't so dramatic.

Reading your experience makes me remember what I went through with my sister several years ago. Prior to the lgat she was interested in my thoughts and ideas and was concerned if I was having difficulty. After the lgat, she didn't want to hear my thoughts and when hard times hit, she poured salt in the wound by (a) accusing me of creating my reality (she greatly assisted me in seeing the LIES in the lgat ideology) and (b) showing no compassion or concern for me. It was a new day, brave new world. Seeing how the lgat played out in her opened my eyes to its dangerous aspect.

And, yes, lgats make people self-centered. Self-centered and heartless. Once a brain is infected by an lgat the subjects think their problems are fixed. As a result, they are totally closed to any other points of view because, afterall, they need nothing else. This is the hallucination lgat technology so masterfully creates in the subjects. They become irrational, stupid (simple-minded), ruthless, etc. but are, by design, unable to see a damn thing about reality, about themselves. It's a mess, and I haven't figured out, after six years, how to reach my sister. She remains blinded to this day.

And while your ex had one good experience with his brother, he's still on the high. As life goes one and one continues trying to apply lgat ideology to REAL LIFE, if the subject is paying any attention, it becomes apparent that the LIE doesn't apply to real life.

I'd like to see studies on how long the effects last; I know they last different lengths of time with different people. Are there some people who never come out of the indoctrination? I've also wondered, is it possible to come out if one never sees and understands what exactly was done to them? I tend to think the answer to that is "no".

Like you, I was (still am) shocked when I learned about lgats. I think they ought to be regulated and exposed.