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karenb
OK, but please put your pants back on.

I'm sorry, you lost me somewhere.

The nudity is annoying. The buzzwords are annoying. The encroaching polyamory is absolutely from hell. Most people do not want to see nudity as "just that," and it's not cause they have issues, anymore than people don't want to do Landmark because they're "just not commited to living a life of possibility." Maybe you're not dropping trou in public, but here in the Bay Area it's a major problem, ok?

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karenb

But nudity does make one more vulnerable, and not just metaphorically. If you are with strangers or with anyone not your doctor/family/lovers naked, especially if you are female, you are putting yourself at risk of unwanted sexual stuff.

Or does this HAI group think everyone should always be 'access all areas' to everyone else?
Love
Kath

I'm sorry, when I read this I just HAD to laugh.

I coudn't imagine anything happening in a workshop environment without consent. One of the first things taught is that you are always at choice. You can always say "no", and 'no' means "NO".

Any touch that is done, is done with explicit permission, and that permission is withdrawable at any time.

Although you didn't state it explicitly, you seem to be implying that women who attend this are in danger of being raped. I'd say exactly as much danger as in the office space of a police department.

If that's what you were implying, you couldn't be more wrong.

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karenb
The nudity is annoying. The buzzwords are annoying. The encroaching polyamory is absolutely from hell. Most people do not want to see nudity as "just that," and it's not cause they have issues, anymore than people don't want to do Landmark because they're "just not commited to living a life of possibility." Maybe you're not dropping trou in public, but here in the Bay Area it's a major problem, ok?

Honestly... I'm sorry it's such a problem for you. We live in central indiana.

Pull a Google on Peter Rengel. He was at both of the workshops we attended.
Have a look at his books, they are on Amazon, and I'm sure in libraries.

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kath
But nudity does make one more vulnerable, and not just metaphorically. If you are with strangers or with anyone not your doctor/family/lovers naked, especially if you are female, you are putting yourself at risk of unwanted sexual stuff.

Or does this HAI group think everyone should always be 'access all areas' to everyone else?
Love
Kath

I posted a reply earlier, but I guess the PHP demons ate it.

I guess it's a common mistake to think that nudity automatically leads to sex. Don't feel too bad about it, I used to think that way too. :(

HAI teaches responsibility, trust, and respect.

One of the first things you'll get at a level 1 workshop, is ground rules.
I wasn't taking notes, but if I remember right, the first thing we discussed was: "No means NO". You are always free to choose wether and how much to participate in any exercise. Any touch that happens in an exercise is done after asking for and recieving explicit permission. This applies even to something as innoccuous as touching someone's face with your fingers. This is important enough that it is restated frequently, and you hear a lot of "with your partner's permission" and "asking your partner's permission" as exercsizes begin.

We discussed that some of the things that we get into bring up powerful emotions, and I can certainly testify to that. Some of the women at our L1 and L2 workshops are rape victims. Can you imagine the level of trust for a woman who has been raped multiple times to tell you that she feels completely comfortable with you, especially when you're sharing deeply intimate moments. (NOT sex, though I'm sure some will insist on interpreting what I just said that way)


I've seen on the forum here, that in other groups you are forbidden to work with the person that you came with. No such thing at HAI. You can work exclusively with whoever you came with if you want. A lot of people come as a couple and do just that. Others come as a couple and then work with other people to gain that experience. It's entirely up to you.

I've been refused as a partner for an exercise, and I've been told limits on touch. No big deal at all. I've always respected those limits, and we went on to complete the exercises within our negotiated limits.

One of my most treasured experiences at our level 1 (next to proposing marriage again to my wife in front of the group) was when a woman I was working with found the ability to say "no". It was a wonderful thing to see her get the realization that she really truly could say no, and that this was in fact OK! She'd done a lot of things in her life because she didn't feel that she could really say no. People who know her, (hai folk and non-hai folk) agree that the change has been very positive for her.


Although you didn't explicitly say so, you seem to imply that women at these events are in danger of being raped because of the clothing optional environment.. Sigh..

I can't really see how anything like that could happen.
I can't say that it never has, or that it won't ever happen, but I think that a HAI workshop is a pretty unlikely place for it.

Having been there myself, I can't imagine anything LESS likely to happen. I'm no starry-eyed believer, I know that nobody is perfect, and some will come into things like this for the wrong reasons, but a raised-voice "NO" would bring immediate attention to the situation, and any number of folks at hand to help you enforce your "no". Me among them.

It's not a nude encounter group, it's clothing-optional. Let me re-stress the word OPTIONAL. You may, if you choose, arrive in a chastity belt and full suit of armor. It will make things mechanically interesting, but if my partner needs this to feel safe, then that's what he or she will get.

I tell you what, why don't you read through my story about my level 1 experience, and tell me wether you consider dave before, or dave after this workshop to be the greater threat to you?

[www.libchrist.com]
I wrote this, I am "steve". At the time I wrote this, I wanted a bit more control over who I shared that connection with. You can verify that with the site owner if you choose.



You know, before we went the first time, I spent a lot of time on google, looking for problems, looking for people who had something negative to say about hai. I found ONE guy, and judging from his web site, there isn't much that he dosen't have a problem with. Have you found anything like that? I'd be interested to see it. (real cult-mind-think at work here!)

Hi.. first time poster, but i'll be brief as I can.

I'm dating someone who went to HAI L1 and L2. They profoundly changed her life, for the better, according to the people she's known before and after.. but not in the direction that I believe they had intended.

You see.. she used to be extremely.. lets say.. "loose". She would sleep with anyone, thinking it was the price that she had to pay for the human contact, the afterglow, which she desired more than anything, as she was hurt very badly.

L1 gave her her voice back, L2 gave her the courage to say no, and to stand up for her decisions.

At L1, she was nude (about half of the other particpants were nude at any given time)... but at L2 she was clothed almost all the time, whereas most of the other participants were unclothed most of the time.

She finally had come to value her body as a precious gift, and not something to be shared with just anybody.

As she and I got to know eachother better, of course HAI came up, and she started telling me how much more uncomfortable with the nudity she was, and how that seemed exceptionally unusual for someone moving through the workshops (there's 7 levels, in case you're wondering, and you do have to do them in order from 1-4, then you can do 5-7 at your lesiure).

Through further discussion, I began to suspect some foul play... and so I agreed to go to an "Intro", which is a free, come-as-you-are, clothing-required (ours was in a conference room at a hotel) introduction to the workshops and what they were supposed to be like.

Upon arrival, you're greeted with many many smiling faces of the "interns", the facilitators, and the past participants who are bringing their friends to introduce them to the organization. After a brief history of the company, the facilitator at this particular intro asked us to clear out a large area to do what they call a "Hand-on-Heart", which is the traditional greet/part ritual of the workshops.

It was made perfectly clear that you were "at choice" to participate in these exercises. However, the critical part of me wanted to simply observe, in a clinical sense, what actually was going on. My girlfriend decided to sit out with me, becuase she didnt want me to be sitting all alone, i think, or my cynicism had worn off alittle on her.

The 40-some people who were there arranged themselves in concentric rings, and began the exercise/ritual. The gentleman running the PA system started some soft music, and the facilitator (Felicia, if you follow the link at the bottom) began speaking softly through the mic, instructing the people to "look in to their eyes, see the angel within", etc etc. All in a very soothing, very calming voice.. not unlike a basic hypnotic technique, and indeed with the music playing in the background, one could very easily be suggested.

The loops went around twice, everyone Hand-on-Hearting (this is a short handshake-like thing where you hold your hand over your heart, and on the facilitator's instruction, you clasp hands in front, then kiss the back of their hand, all the while staring into your current partner's eyes, then taking a step to the left) everyone else. After this, everyone had an opportunity to "mill and hug", where you were able to greet whomever you "connected" with during the hand-on-heart, and ask them if they would like a hug, again trumpeting the "at choice" thing.

Then it was time for the second exercise, which I didnt catch the name of. In this exercise, you were paired off with someone for some listening time. I obviously did this with my girlfriend, although truth being told spending minutes just listening to her talk to get her frustrations out without fear of reprocussions is something that I try to do whenever possible. Other people paired off with strangers, or whomever they'd come with, etc. After about 5 minutes of pure listening (listeners were encouraged to do nothing but look and watch the talkers), switch was called, and the talkers became listeners, etc. All in all, a basic relationship building exercise.

After the second talker was done talking, the third exercise began. In this exercise, you were asked to caress the face of the person in front of you (whomever you were partnered with for the previous exercise) for several minutes, all while Felicia was speaking, suggesting movements and thoughts and feelings to have during the exercise. After several minutes of face-time, she instructed to move in closer and begin caressing face, scalp, neck, and arms.

I can only imagine where it would go in a private (read: Not in a hotel conference room) after that, where clothing is optional. I'm reasonably certian it wouldn't stop with neck and arms. While the touch may not be strictly sexual, it certianly was suggested several times that it would be sensual, but never specifically said an outright turn-on.

After participants switched, there was another few minutes of listening/talking, where you could share your feelings about what just happened during the last exercise.

During the closing of the intro, Felicia pointed a few comments specifically at me, saying "... and if you chose not to participate.." knowing full well that my girl and I were the only ones not to participate in the first exercise, and such a comment was patently unnecessary, except as a subtle push to participate "next time", for fear of being singled out again.

Luckily, being as I was looking for such subtle pushes, I didnt fall prey to them. If you check the facilitators page you can see that there are no less than 3 certified hypnotherapists as facilitators.

Overall, the experience I've had personally with HAI has been ... enlightening. It DOES make a difference in many people's lives.. it can be extremely good for some people - the people who shy away from all contact because they've been hurt in the past, or the people that, like my girl, dont value themselves because they've always been told they're worthless.

Then again, so does Dr. Phil, to the right type of people.

I would (and have) suggest a Level 1 to anyone who wants to find their voice, or anyone who needs help regaining a basic trust in the human race.

However, some of the other things that I've heard about Level 2 seriously deterr me from reccomending it as a full path. While I can't share these things (there's a verbal non-disclosure agreement, "What happens at HAI stays at HAI") for fear of reprocussions, suffice it to say that any time you get mostly-naked people in a room touching, caressing, stroking, bathing, watching, and even inspecting each other's parts, with no apparent moral boundaries, then going so far as to connect with each other on that deep, spiritual level, there's gonna be tendancies towards polyamory and/or swinging. So much so that many of the participant's blog and IM profiles show interests in group sex, polyamory, etc.. something that my girlfriend is mortified by.

And the simple fact that Level 4 is titled "Integrating Spirituality and Sexuality" is VERY unnerving. Isn't the "Free Love" movement what got everyone in trouble in the 60s? Seems to me that they're preaching an extremely similar message, although with no drugs (at least, not at the workshops).

I had actually made the comparison to a cult not long after me and my girl started seeing each other. She had the knee-jerk protest reaction of "No it's not!" But on further digging.. it's become incredibly difficult to find anything truly negative about the organization. Nobody seems to have any doubts, or any protests, or even any criticisms, that we've been able to find, and participants are PARTICULARLY tight-lipped about what goes on in the later levels.

I find it difficult to believe that she's the first to have a negative impression of the organization as a whole, based on what she's experienced during the workshops and with the people that attended them, however there's no shortage of people singing their praises.

Indeed, many groupsex, nudist, and polyamory sites have links to HAI and suggest going to their workshops. HAI doesn't outright encourage doing things of a sexual nature with more than one person at a time, but they certainly do not have a problem with it.

So much for a short post, but I hope it helps someone out there.

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diashto
Hi.. first time poster, but i'll be brief as I can.

You see.. she used to be extremely.. lets say.. "loose". She would sleep with anyone, thinking it was the price that she had to pay for the human contact, the afterglow, which she desired more than anything, as she was hurt very badly.

Although diashto and I haven't met in person, we both know the lady in question, and I am looking forward to meeting him in the future. I was at the L1 and L2 with her, and I'd completely agree with him here.

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diashto
I can only imagine where it would go in a private (read: Not in a hotel conference room) after that, where clothing is optional. I'm reasonably certian it wouldn't stop with neck and arms. While the touch may not be strictly sexual, it certianly was suggested several times that it would be sensual, but never specifically said an outright turn-on.

Well, it goes as far as the two participants want it to go.
If you tell me that you have no boundaries, and I'm also ok with it, then what's the problem? We are talking about two adults, freely choosing to participate. I have held back when given permission to touch someone with no boundaries, because I wasn't comfortable with it. I've also respected the boundaries of others. That's part of what you're supposed to be learning. And it's ok for boundaries to change, but it's important that you know that only YOU can move your boundaries, you should never let someone else push you into it. I would take that sort of pushing very negatively, and stop working with that person.

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diashto
During the closing of the intro, Felicia pointed a few comments specifically at me, saying "... and if you chose not to participate.." knowing full well that my girl and I were the only ones not to participate in the first exercise, and such a comment was patently unnecessary, except as a subtle push to participate "next time", for fear of being singled out again.

I wasn't at this event, which I really wanted to attend, but couldn't for personal reasons. I do remember at the level 1 and level 2 workshops, as part of the earliest exersizes a question was asked, but I can't remember the exact wording, something like "If you chose not to, how was that for you". The intent I got from it was that you could look at those feelings, and see what was happening.

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diashto
Luckily, being as I was looking for such subtle pushes, I didnt fall prey to them. If you check the facilitators page you can see that there are no less than 3 certified hypnotherapists as facilitators.

AFAIK, it's pretty common for therapists and counsellors to work with hypnosis, so it dosen't surprise me that they list this. Interestingly, if they had some dark purpose, why would they list it? Wouldn't that be something that they would rather leave off the resume?

I don't know where you draw the line between a relaxing and quiet atmosphere with no distractions, to "subtle hypnotic techniques". I didn't see anything in this domain that would have been out of place in a yoga class, or even in church, for that matter.

I'm no expert on hypnosis, my only experience with it was in college. If it's actually being used in hai workshops, then I think it needs to be done with explicit consent.

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diashto
Overall, the experience I've had personally with HAI has been ... enlightening. It DOES make a difference in many people's lives.. it can be extremely good for some people - the people who shy away from all contact because they've been hurt in the past, or the people that, like my girl, dont value themselves because they've always been told they're worthless.

Complete agreement here, I didn't know her before L1, but she spoke very frankly about her life prior, and how things were for her. I see a very different lady in her now, and I don't know anyone that knows her who disapproves of the changes.

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diashto
However, some of the other things that I've heard about Level 2 seriously deterr me from reccomending it as a full path. While I can't share these things (there's a verbal non-disclosure agreement, "What happens at HAI stays at HAI") for fear of reprocussions,

Woah.. Let's be crystal clear here. I don't think you got any different talk on this than I did. They do require confidentiality, for obvious reasons that I completely agree with, having to do with the discussions that you are going to have with people who may be telling you things that they've never told another human being before, and the harm that could come to THEM if you were to betray that trust. You voluntarily accepted that trust, and you are on your honor not to betray it. There were no reprocussions pointed at YOU, no threats made, veiled or otherwise.

Another reason for the "what happens here, stays here" policy is that the exersizes are designed to teach you some things that won't happen if you know what's coming. Without violating confidentiality myself, you choose a partner for an exersise, having no idea what that exersize will be. If you knew beforehand, you might "chicken out" (whatever that means to you) and make a "safer", less challenging choice. Another thing that you come to realize, is that you can indeed partner with anyone, and get a lot of good out of it. Even that scary looking guy over there!

What you said above could be misinterpreted to mean that you were threatened with some sort of reprocussions, and while I wasn't there at your event, I'd lay large money that this is not the case.

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diashto
suffice it to say that any time you get mostly-naked people in a room touching, caressing, stroking, bathing, watching, and even inspecting each other's parts, with no apparent moral boundaries

"moral boundaries"? Ok, 'splain me something. If I ask you if you'd like to share a shower with me, and you say "sure", what moral boundaries were crossed? If you feel uncomfortable with that, or you have some religious problem with it, then by all means you should refuse, and I would always respect that refusal.

Now I've shared here my experience, which I have every right to do. (link in previous post) As I wrote, up to L1 the only person I had EVER been comfortable with in a shower was my wife. I quit high school over the idea of having to deal with the locker room thing. Without realizing it, I had some severe issues in this area. Post HAI, I can use a urinal, a common shower, and I have no fear of bathing another person, because I know that there never was any need to fear that. Now such activity CAN lead to sex certainly, but it does not have to. It can just be a nice thing all on it's own. Does that make me gay? No, I don't think so. I'm no longer uncomfortable in the slightest when around gay men, but I'm just more secure in myself.

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diashto
then going so far as to connect with each other on that deep, spiritual level, there's gonna be tendancies towards polyamory and/or swinging. So much so that many of the participant's blog and IM profiles show interests in group sex, polyamory, etc.. something that my girlfriend is mortified by.

Surprisingly, we are in agreement here. :)

Swinging.. Ok. HAI does teach that there can be recreational sex that is simply that, and has no deeper meaning than that. If you don't have religious prohibitions that you need to observe, then where's the problem?
Again, this is consenting adults, and they also are very strong on safe sex, and knowing your prospective partner's history and taking appropriate precautions.

The P word is an interesting one. One thing I've learned is that if you have N people in a room discussing it, then you'll find at least N different definitions of it. For some people it essentially means swinging, just an open relationship with meaningless sex. For others, it means the mormon thing, which I personally find disgusting for many reasons, at least as far as I understand it. For others it means a deeply committed relationship between equals, and that's where my head is at.

Yes, I have discovered that I am a polyamorist! (OMG!)

Actually, I was introduced to the idea many years ago, in things like "The Harrad Experiment", "Stranger in a Strange Land" and "Time Enough for Love". I just didn't think that it was something that was "real". So this isn't an idea that HAI "hypnotized me into", it's something that was there for many years, dormant.

Evil scum of the earth that I am, I am capable of really loving multiple people. Wether the relationship is sexual or not makes no difference at all, at least to me. I love the woman that we were talking about earlier.
I am VERY glad that the two of you have gotten together, and that things seem to be working out. I told her once that I would gladly dance at your wedding. (or at least make an attempt at something that could vaguely be interpreted as dance, if you're drunk enough)

Now someone who didn't appreciate what I mean here might misinterpret this, so let me be clear here. I care deeply about this woman. We connect on levels that constantly surprise me. We had a rather special moment there at L1, and I would be very surprised if she hadn't told you about it, but I won't detail here, becuase that would be breaking my agreement. It's up to her who she shares that with.

My wife made a pretty strong connection to a fellow at our L2 workshop.
This bothers me exactly not at all. Why should it? If it makes her happy, and dosen't take away from our relationship, then where is the problem?

When you think about it, the standard marriage vows look a lot like a contract of ownership. If you interpret them strictly, then if the husband starts beating the wife with a baseball bat, she has no recourse whatsoever. "Till death do you part". It also engourages a mindset that once you're married, you've achieved that goal, and you can stop trying.
I don't say this is what happens all the time, but just that it encourages that sort of thought. A more interesting model IMHO, is the one where you are together because you choose to be, and you work on the relationship daily. You earn the relationship every day.

Now I am aware that the lady we spoke of is deeply opposed to polyamory, and that's PERFECTLY OK. Nobody is going to try to change her mind, or coerce her into anything. Each person is different, and what works for her, dosen't work for someone else, but neither of them is "broken", as long as they are open and honest about what they are doing.

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diashto
And the simple fact that Level 4 is titled "Integrating Spirituality and Sexuality" is VERY unnerving. Isn't the "Free Love" movement what got everyone in trouble in the 60s? Seems to me that they're preaching an extremely similar message, although with no drugs (at least, not at the workshops).

They are very clear about that. They want you absolutely to continue any medications that you are on prescription for, and to not do any "recreational" drugs, both for yourself, and out of respect to the people you are working with. It's important that you are able to be fully "there" when you're there.

As far as the "free love" thing goes, I would agree with you up to this point: I think what they are teaching is that YOU should make your own concious informed decisions about what you do in your relationships, and who you do it with. You will pay whatever costs or penalties are involved whichever way you go. I have a similar rule when I write software. I don't copy others code, because I would also copy their mistakes. I write my own.

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diashto
I had actually made the comparison to a cult not long after me and my girl started seeing each other. She had the knee-jerk protest reaction of "No it's not!" But on further digging.. it's become incredibly difficult to find anything truly negative about the organization. Nobody seems to have any doubts, or any protests, or even any criticisms, that we've been able to find, and participants are PARTICULARLY tight-lipped about what goes on in the later levels.

I agree, this does seem "creepy". It's one of the things that hit me when I first started to look at HAI. The lack of criticism has at least two possible interpretations.

1: Hai's fluffy-bunny exterior conceals a secret hit squat in rainbow helicopters that is FAR more effective that Scientology's GO and Sea org ever was. (i am highly doubtful on this idea)

2: It really is a good thing.

Occams razor suggests #2

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diashto
I find it difficult to believe that she's the first to have a negative impression of the organization as a whole, based on what she's experienced during the workshops and with the people that attended them, however there's no shortage of people singing their praises.

Well, I know that you are aware of one web page that's pretty critical, but I think you may have come to the same conclusion I did when I read it, that this guy has a problem with pretty much everything and everyone.

As you know, I am still looking for critical opinions, and I'm glad to finally hear yours first person. We share some of the same concerns, but not all, and I don't agree with the conclusions you've drawn, but that's ok.

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diashto
Indeed, many groupsex, nudist, and polyamory sites have links to HAI
and suggest going to their workshops. HAI doesn't outright encourage doing things of a sexual nature with more than one person at a time, but they certainly do not have a problem with it.

You're right, they leave that choice up to you, which IMHO is exactly where it shoud be.

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diashto
So much for a short post, but I hope it helps someone out there.

Same here. I am looking further afield, for any input on wether there is really a "hidden dark side" to this organization. That was one reason for coming here. I knew of Rick from my active anti-scientology days. My wife and I have discussed becoming interns for HAI, and I certainly don't want to do that if in the end, it's harming people. I specifically asked NOT to have anyone tell me anything that would only serve to spoil the surprise, since I have so far enjoyed that surprise and challenge.

Hai has been out there for about 30 years, and it's pretty hard to imagine that they have managed to conceal a deep dark secret that long.

In my opinion, and you can take it for what it's worth, you went into it looking for problems (you said as much above) and you read more into what happened than you should have. I think you're right to hold the facilitators to a high standard, but they are also people, and can be guilty of simple overenthusiasm. It would have been better if you'd called them on it right then and there, but that's unfortunately not what happened.

I agree mistakes were made, but I don't see evil intent behind them.

That got rather long, and I wanted to put some other observations here separately.

I read in other accounts with other organizations, about being short on sleep, short on food, browbeating, and other such things going on. I've read about some where you leave your car keys with the staff. I've also read of groups where you were essentially held incommunicado. I know some groups urge you to cut communications with non-involved relatives and to seek your answers only within the group.


At hai, the food has been excellent. Served buffet style, and there's always been plenty left at the end of the meals, so I have to assume that nobody was deprived. I certainly wasn't. As far as I can tell, it's all high quality fare, with vegitarian choices as well as non-vegitarian. They accomodate special dietary needs to the degree possible, and advise you to let them know of anything like that in advance.


Sleep: I sleep less at workshops than I do at home, but not because of anything bad. There have been evenings that I am sure I didn't sleep at all, but I felt great all day, and in fact all weekend, and after.
Mealtimes are pretty relaxed, no big rush at all.
There is a fairly long break for lunch where people do whatever they desire, mostly talking in small groups or checking in with kids.

At the end of the day there is a time for just recreational dancing or whatever, and I've seen people go off to sleep early during that time. Nobody hasseled them in the least. Mornings are earlier than I'm used to, but very gentle, and there's plenty of time for personal needs and breakfast if you desire. (I normally get up at about 9AM, anyone who has a problem with that can see me after I get off work, which is usually midnight to 2AM)

There are also breaks where everyone is encouraged to participate in a little physical activity like dancing as opposed to the mostly sitting and talking of the workshop proper. Doing the hokey-pokey, or something else that, is part of the evil plot to generate a lot of laughs and general silliness. It's a good balance.


Browbeating: NEVER. I would be shocked to see this.


Are the workshops emotionally exhausting, yes they certainly can be.
Again, you are free to stop when you want to. I've seen people pull back from an exercise, or leave the room at points. Nobody made any attempt to stop them. If you wanted to, you could simply go to your car and leave.

Cellphones and pagers are asked to be left off and outside the room purely for distraction value. There is a number where calls can be made to you in an emergency. Your phone and such is not taken from your control, and during any break, or any time you feel you need to, you are free to go outside and use it. You are informed of this, and given the emergency number before you arrive at the workshop.

External information control: None that I can see. Nobody advised me to keep away from other groups, or not to talk to others about my experiences, beyond the confidentiality agreement. Anyone who knows me now knows that this still leaves a LOT to talk about :) There are no dire warnings (or non-dire warnings) of spiritual corruption from foreign ideas.

So at least in these points, on the workshops I've been to, I'd have to say they are scoring 0.0 on my cult-o-meter.

Something else that bears mentioning. There's a copious supply of hand sanitizers available, and some discussion of how diseases are passed by hand contact. Part of the "Hand on heart" that was mentioned earlier is the caution that if you have a cold, you should kiss your own hand rather than the other person's. Some things are better left un-shared. :) You can also kiss your own hand if for any reason you feel uncomfortable kissing the other person's. People do this, and I for one take no offence whatever.

I've compared the workshops to a roller coaster, and IIRC they made the same comparison during one of the sessions. There's that time when the tension is mounting, as you approach that point of fear, then the moment of staring into the abyss, and the wild ride, but at the end, once I'm through it, I look at what happened and think "wow, that was interesting!"

I know I'm up for more of that, and looking at what it's done for myself and others, I say "Bring it on!".



It might seem that I'm defending HAI, and I guess I am.
Certainly they are the world's worst self-promoters, and their confidentiality, plus the fact that the workshops are about love, sex, and intimacy, can generate some fear in people. They did for us. I'm happy to say that as far as I can see, it's groundless fear.

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dbvanhorn

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diashto
However, some of the other things that I've heard about Level 2 seriously deterr me from reccomending it as a full path. While I can't share these things (there's a verbal non-disclosure agreement, "What happens at HAI stays at HAI") for fear of reprocussions,

What you said above could be misinterpreted to mean that you were threatened with some sort of reprocussions, and while I wasn't there at your event, I'd lay large money that this is not the case.

No, i'm not scared of any reprocussions on myself.. bring it on. I just dont want the parties that have shared those experiences to be given any grief because they did share some of the things that went on.

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diashto
suffice it to say that any time you get mostly-naked people in a room touching, caressing, stroking, bathing, watching, and even inspecting each other's parts, with no apparent moral boundaries

"moral boundaries"? Ok, 'splain me something. If I ask you if you'd like to share a shower with me, and you say "sure", what moral boundaries were crossed? If you feel uncomfortable with that, or you have some religious problem with it, then by all means you should refuse, and I would always respect that refusal.

There's something that can be said about saving things like that for one person.. to make them special, unique, and only for one person. Tell me, what do you save for your wife, now that you've shared these things with everyone else? A spot on your tax return?

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Now I've shared here my experience, which I have every right to do. (link in previous post) As I wrote, up to L1 the only person I had EVER been comfortable with in a shower was my wife. I quit high school over the idea of having to deal with the locker room thing. Without realizing it, I had some severe issues in this area. Post HAI, I can use a urinal, a common shower, and I have no fear of bathing another person, because I know that there never was any need to fear that. Now such activity CAN lead to sex certainly, but it does not have to. It can just be a nice thing all on it's own. Does that make me gay? No, I don't think so. I'm no longer uncomfortable in the slightest when around gay men, but I'm just more secure in myself.

It makes you a nudist, nothing more.

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Swinging.. Ok. HAI does teach that there can be recreational sex that is simply that, and has no deeper meaning than that. If you don't have religious prohibitions that you need to observe, then where's the problem?
Again, this is consenting adults, and they also are very strong on safe sex, and knowing your prospective partner's history and taking appropriate precautions.

When you think about it, the standard marriage vows look a lot like a contract of ownership. If you interpret them strictly, then if the husband starts beating the wife with a baseball bat, she has no recourse whatsoever. "Till death do you part". It also engourages a mindset that once you're married, you've achieved that goal, and you can stop trying.
I don't say this is what happens all the time, but just that it encourages that sort of thought. A more interesting model IMHO, is the one where you are together because you choose to be, and you work on the relationship daily. You earn the relationship every day.

See above. Where do you draw the line, how do you make your wife feel special about how you feel about her? Physical level notwithstanding (your body being human, male, and prone to outside influence), how do you raise one relationship over another, if you're constantly falling in love with one person or another? Can you honestly say there's something you do for/to her that you wouldnt do for someone else?

HAI seems to suggest that its okay to do for many what you should save for one - that's one of the big problems that I have.

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diashto
Indeed, many groupsex, nudist, and polyamory sites have links to HAI
and suggest going to their workshops. HAI doesn't outright encourage doing things of a sexual nature with more than one person at a time, but they certainly do not have a problem with it.

You're right, they leave that choice up to you, which IMHO is exactly where it shoud be.

I have to apoligize, i didnt intend this to turn into a debate about what's morally right or wrong. Heavens knows i've done more than a few things that many people would consider questionable, if not outright wrong. Someone asked for information, and I simply put down my impressions and feelings during the one thing that i've experienced, as well as the things that i've heard from my special someone.

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In my opinion, and you can take it for what it's worth, you went into it looking for problems (you said as much above) and you read more into what happened than you should have. I think you're right to hold the facilitators to a high standard, but they are also people, and can be guilty of simple overenthusiasm. It would have been better if you'd called them on it right then and there, but that's unfortunately not what happened.

Yes, i went in looking for problems.. and some of the things that i found i would consider problems - but many things were very good. Encouraging those to ask permission for hugs, touting being "at choice" to do one thing or another, etc.

The biggest question that I had for Felicia, and I really should have asked it at the intro, but I was more interested in getting something to eat than to try and extend the intro even further by debating it:

If all of these things are so good... why can't they be done with clothes on? There's no valid reason that I can think of to have naked people in what essentially amounts to a group-therapy weekend.

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I agree mistakes were made, but I don't see evil intent behind them.

Mistakes? I didnt see any mistakes at my intro.. who made mistakes?

Again, apologies, these posts arent intended to be an attack on you or HAI, just a description of my impressions of the organization as a whole based on my interaction and observations. I'm by no means an authority on psychotherapy techniques, hypnosis, HAI, or morality. I'm just a man.