Hi everyone,

I'm going to describe my situation, but if you just want to get to my question, scroll down to the bottom of the post :)

I've been reading this forum and finding it really useful. My friend attended the Landmark forum in the fall, recently did the Advanced Forum and is starting ILP in the next few weeks. I attended her completion night and also an introduction event that she organized. I almost signed up after that, but luckily decided to look it up first. When I read some of the articles online, my impression was that the cult stuff might be a bit of an exaggeration, but because I'm the kind of person who would always have what I read in the back of mind, I wouldn't want to pay that much money for something I wouldn't be able to get into. Now that I've been reading so much here though, I see so many of the elements in my friend: the inability to explain what it is they do her, the jargon, the Landmarkian friends and the program after program. One of the things that particularly strikes me is that my friend had cut out some activities and quit a job so she would have more time to study - and yet she's about to join the ILP, which is a major time commitment.

I have been supportive so far, encouraging her to share it with me - and she is still kind and gentle and has not become self-righteous about it. That's why the approach I'm going to take is a more confrontational one, in that I'll throw some of the absurdities at her and try to plant that seed of doubt. I still have faith in her intelligence, and if I'm wrong and she's more brainwashed than I think, this will show me that. One of the things I want to do is point out to her some of the ridiculous things the ILP will make her do, [i:a95fbbed55]before[/i:a95fbbed55] she enters it and they tell her how it's all necessary and will make her complete and blah blah blah. Then she'll have that at the back of her mind.

[b:a95fbbed55]So, can those who have participated tell me more about the ILP? [/b:a95fbbed55]What is the true time commitment? Is it true that you have to have 5 conversations a day about Landmark? What are the other requirements? Also, how oriented is the program around selling Landmark, and do they get assignments to enrol a certain number of people? My friend claims they know she's not interested in being an introduction leader, but this is for her and her leadership skills.

Thanks in advance, I think it's fantastic that you guys are here to provide us with inside information and support. I'll definitely be sticking around.

Quote

That's why the approach I'm going to take is a more confrontational one, in that I'll throw some of the absurdities at her and try to plant that seed of doubt. I still have faith in her intelligence, and if I'm wrong and she's more brainwashed than I think, this will show me that. One of the things I want to do is point out to her some of the ridiculous things the ILP will make her do, before she enters it and they tell her how it's all necessary and will make her complete and blah blah blah. Then she'll have that at the back of her mind.

WantToSaveMyFriend,
Whatever you do, do not underestimate how brainwashed your friend is! I had a friend who also went nuts with courses, taking time where she had none to give, quit a career to follow "the work" of landmark and pretty much came to perceive me as 'the enemy' because I took the confrontational route.
I'm just saying be careful or you will lose whatever ground and influence you have in your friends' life. Landmark utilizes a very potent brand of brainwashing, so much so that friends and family quickly become mere acquaintances when they start contradicting landmark. Read up on some of the articles written by cult experts that are available on this site and get a really good view of what your friend is caught in before you approach her. She will NOT see the absurdity or foolishness you intend to point out, that ability has been 'turned off' to accomodate the twisted landmarkian teachings about life and reality.
I hope to God you do better at helping your friend than I did mine.

Quote

I'm just saying be careful or you will lose whatever ground and influence you have in your friends' life. Landmark utilizes a very potent brand of brainwashing, so much so that friends and family quickly become mere acquaintances when they start contradicting landmark.

Hi ON2 LF,
Thanks for the advice. I will definitely read all the articles on the site before I approach this conversation. One of the things that makes me think it's not that bad yet is that when I talked to her about what I read online, she wanted to talk to me about my concerns. She wasn't mad in the least and just explained why to her, there was no issue. I think she even said at some point that the hard selling is a little weird - which is why I'm surprised to find out the "leadership" program she mentioned is actually the salespeople training program!

Is it possible for people to get very involved and not have it be detrimental? She is still putting a lot of time into her other goals and interests. I only became good friends with her about a month before she did the program, so it's hard for me to judge how significantly it's affected her. The fact she's about to put so much time into this when I know she doesn't have it is my only red light, really. The other uh oh moment was strange behaviour by one of her Landmark friends, a 40-something woman who sat on the floor for half an hour in a theatre lobby because she was nervous about a party she was holding the next day.

Quote

Is it possible for people to get very involved and not have it be detrimental?

In my opinion, NO WAY. To be 'very involved' is to be very manipulated. No one would get very involved with Landmark if everyone attending forums was told upfront that landmark is a strictly for profit company that exploits its participants for future sales of courses via lowlife recruitment tactics. No one would attend a landmark forum if everyone knew and understood the danger involved with the methods through which people become brainwashed into thinking they've experienced an epiphany. No one would be involved with Landmark Education in any way shape or form if everyone understood how shrewd, selfish, cunning and sociopathic is its founder. (goes by several names but the one that comes to mind is werner erhard, who used to be jack rosenberg, who used to be who the heck knows, even he probably doesn't remember!)
If a person can be involved with Landmark without detriment, its because they are already spiritually and emotionally dead. This is not the case for most people, so involvement is detrimental.

Quote

Is it true that you have to have 5 conversations a day about Landmark? What are the other requirements? Also, how oriented is the program around selling Landmark, and do they get assignments to enrol a certain number of people? My friend claims they know she's not interested in being an introduction leader, but this is for her and her leadership skills.

There is no exact answer to some of your question but I can probably give you a good understanding of ILP have completed it and been an introduction leader and paid staff member of Landmark.

The time committment in ILP is huge, I would break the commitments down to two ares... formal committments which are the agreements that every participant in a region make. These include:

1. Attending weekly classrooms - usually held on a Friday or Saturday night. Usually starting at 7pm and finishing around minight or 1am

2. Attending four weekends that are attended by all the different ILP classroom groups in a region.

3. Assist at all Special Evenings or evening sessions of courses or if there is no evening session assist around the centre by calling guests who did not register into the landmark forum or have an introduction at home.

4. Learn the introduction format and all other materials including the fequently asked questions answers. By learn I mean memorise completely.

5. Bring a minimum of 20 guests to events over the six month period

6. Register 15 People into the landmark forum over the six month period.

7. Register 2 people over the phone who had been guests at an event. This must be done within 20 calls or you must register another person ie if you don't get it done in 20 calls you must register 3 within 30, or 4 within 40 .. you get the drift.

8. We will do all homework assisgned by the classroom teacher.

Those are the formal agreements, then there are the informal agreements that can be agreed upon by either a class group, or a coaching group or a buddy grouping. And these are when you start getting into even more pressure.

Our class had to agree to an integrity form which we said we would obey the law including all those annoying laws that most people break every day. for example... no jay walking (we live in a city where its done all the time) we had to complete an integrity form each week. and from what I understand most classes have this one.

we all agreed to have 5 to 7 conversations a week about the landmark forum

we all agreed to either hold or arrange a friend to hold an at home introduction every fortnight

we all agreed to do an extra assisting session every fortnight

Then as a coaching team we had a weekly meeting which for my team was at 7am in the city (I lived in worked in a different city so left home at 5.30am)

We all agreed as a team that we would meet once a week to learn our written material together. We made sure that one of us was always assisting at someones home introduction so they were not alone

We met once a fortnight to practise delivering the introduction

Then we all had a buddy who we had to meet with once a week to work on any home work. My buddy and I also met three other times a week to help learn all the written material.

So that gives you some idea of the committment that is not always written down. many people drop out. Many do not become introduction leaders.. Once you are an introduction leader you then have other commitments even if you are still completing ILP.


To answer you question about how selling orientated the programme is .. I don't think I really need to answer that.. read above and you can work it out!


Many people think they can get leadership skils out of it but the leadership skills are all about leading introductions not about true leadership. Your friend would get more by attending something like toastmasters where she will learn to speak in front of others with out being broken and treated like dirt

> I still have faith in her intelligence, and if I'm wrong and she's more brainwashed than I think.

Get her to participate with you in learning how organizations use brainwashing to manipulate people. If she wants to keep the child's innocence that there are no mean people in her life, if she refuses to study how organizations brainwash, then I'm sorry to tell you that she's already lost.
The main thing that brainwashers like Landmark depend on is that people refuse to admit that there is such a thing as brainwashing. "People wouldn't do that." "No one would do that to me."
If she is willfully ignorant about how brainwashing works and is following her Landmark conditioning, then she is helping brainwash others. It is not innocent to be ignorant.

So try to get her to study with you the techniques that organizations use to brainwash. If she refuses, then they already have her.

see my previous thread (page 6 at the bottom)

[board.culteducation.com]

Quote
sonnie_dee

Quote

Is it true that you have to have 5 conversations a day about Landmark? What are the other requirements? Also, how oriented is the program around selling Landmark, and do they get assignments to enrol a certain number of people? My friend claims they know she's not interested in being an introduction leader, but this is for her and her leadership skills.

The time committment in ILP is huge, I would break the commitments down to two ares... formal committments which are the agreements that every participant in a region make. These include:

1. Attending weekly classrooms - usually held on a Friday or Saturday night. Usually starting at 7pm and finishing around minight or 1am

2. Attending four weekends that are attended by all the different ILP classroom groups in a region.

3. Assist at all Special Evenings or evening sessions of courses or if there is no evening session assist around the centre by calling guests who did not register into the landmark forum or have an introduction at home.

4. Learn the introduction format and all other materials including the fequently asked questions answers. By learn I mean memorise completely.

5. Bring a minimum of 20 guests to events over the six month period

6. Register 15 People into the landmark forum over the six month period.

7. Register 2 people over the phone who had been guests at an event. This must be done within 20 calls or you must register another person ie if you don't get it done in 20 calls you must register 3 within 30, or 4 within 40 .. you get the drift.


8. We will do all homework assisgned by the classroom teacher.



Many people think they can get leadership skils out of it but the leadership skills are all about leading introductions not about true leadership. Your friend would get more by attending something like toastmasters where she will learn to speak in front of others with out being broken and treated like dirt

sonnie_dee's experience mirrors my own as a participant in the ILP. I did the landmark forum about 10yrs ago, and then never did another course until my fiance did the LF before we got married.

1. We had 2-3 friday classrooms per month (7pm to 11:50pm)
2. We had 2 assisting agreements per week, one of which included the classroom (one assisting agreement and one classroom; or two assisting agreements if no classroom)
3. We had 4 Sat/Sun weekend courses
4. The guest and registration measures were less: 15 personal guests over 6 months and 10 registrations. These measures were to be met if one was interested in being an introduction leader.
5. We agreed to complete the homework assignments (s_d explained well)

I was able to complete the ILP while working 4 days per week and raising an infant, but it was definitely challenging. I did not meet my statistical measures, and I didn't care. I was actually in the course to generate a breakthrough in my marriage.

I agree that in significant ways, the course content isnt about leadership...it's about leading introductions. However, the *context* for me was very much about leadership. I got to practice really listening to people and hearing not just what they said, but also hearing their underlying commitment. An ability to be with, acknowledge, and reflect back what is most important to another person is a great skill. And that has been very valuable in my career.

I no longer actively participate in Landmark courses. There are at least two reasons for this. One is that I'm raising a family (nearly singlehandedly), and the other is that my spouse is involved enough for both of us.

My advice to your friend: Keep some healthy boundaries! It's perfectly okay to decline requests for additional participation or assisting. Be honest with yourself about whether or not you want to be an IL. It's okay to change your mind, and it's also okay to NEVER want to be an IL. Nothing Landmark says is the truth - keep what is useful to you personally and discard what is not! If you choose to be in the ILP, it doesn't mean anything. If you choose to quit the ILP, it doesn't mean anything. You are already complete and whole, exactly as you are! And so are your family and friends!

> If you choose to be in the ILP, it doesn't mean anything. If you choose to quit the ILP, it doesn't mean anything. You are already complete and whole, exactly as you are! And so are your family and friends!

Warning. This is more of the "empty and meaningless" and "you create your reality" Landmark jargon.

If you choose to be a Landmark introduction leader, you choose to help a secretive, privately-held mind control corporation manipulate people without their consent with powerful brainwashing techniques. Despite what you have been conditioned to believe, this DOES mean something, and it's not OK.

Quote

If you choose to be a Landmark introduction leader, you choose to help a secretive, privately-held mind control corporation manipulate people without their consent with powerful brainwashing techniques. Despite what you have been conditioned to believe, this DOES mean something, and it's not OK.

BINGO. And that [b:af14319908][i:af14319908]is[/i:af14319908][/b:af14319908] the bottom most line to involvement with Landmark Education, or any other cult out there. Every justification for involvement becomes irrelevant detail. The noble reasons most people do seem to have for signing up with LE or other cults, don't amount to anything. The bottom line is that people get hurt because they get used, conned, exploited and violated covertly and overtly at multiple levels of their entire personal being. And as you say joe6, this will never be ok. When it becomes ok, the fine dividing line between us and the amorality of the animal kingdom has been totally erased.