Great discussion here. One question? What are LGAT's? Sounds like a graduate school proficiency test! :lol:

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zelig
Great discussion here. One question? What are LGAT's? Sounds like a graduate school proficiency test! :lol:

My guess is "Large Group Awareness Training"

:?:

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just-googling

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zelig
Great discussion here. One question? What are LGAT's? Sounds like a graduate school proficiency test! :lol:

My guess is "Large Group Awareness Training"

:?:

Oh yeah! duh... :oops: :roll:

:lol:

How about Lesser Gnostic Awareness Techniques! You know Goog, we should start our own cult!

Starting our own cult? Now that's a good one. Very funny. Can you imagine the in-house bickering? I suppose it could work as a CULT OF CONVERSATION, but, I suspect, we'd always end up agreeing that it's best to disagree on a number of issues, especially when it comes to the number one cult doctrine - CONTROL. So, it would be less of a cult and more of a social gathering, a self-help group ... very much like we have here, but with tea and biscuits (cookies, for the Americans).

When I was in a cult my father and brother's started their own 'mock' cult called the 'Octavians' to tease and mock me when I would come home for the holidays with my strange ways. My Dad would strip down to his underwear (not a pretty sight) and come in the living room with only a sheet wrapped around him. He made a turban out of a towel and a septer out of a toilet plunger. They had a script that made Lewis Caroll's poems seem logical. ('Alice in Wonderland') My brothers played the followers wearing dog collars and following his every absurd command. They had a secret handshake and their own mantra. They also used to chant 'Jaya my 'new cult name'.

He had a 'Caligula' Roman theme crossed with the 'Manchurian Candidate' (one of Dad's favorite movies). Used to humiliate the sh*t out of me. This thorn in my side actually kept certain synapses alive in my brain that ultimately would see the absurdity of the group I had joined!

When I left the group my family was very kind and never embarrassed me again or said. "I told you so." or "You were such an idiot." Good people. They realized I was embarassed enough and were just glad to have me back.

Zelig, that is a wonderful story. It seems you're blessed with a very caring and loving family - not to mention creative and funny. I better iron out my goose-bumps. Thanks for that!

Thanks Jack.
My Dad has passed away, but he left me with his legacy of humor, love, and family connection --- the best antidotes to any cult.
As a result my children have been raised to have the best BS detectors.
Thanks 'Lord Octavius Man Chu' and the Octavians; 'Gerbil Maximus' and 'Wu Moronicus'!

Proves that some 'cults' are beneficial. :lol:

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When I was in a cult my father and brother's started their own 'mock' cult called the 'Octavians' to tease and mock me when I would come home for the holidays with my strange ways. My Dad would strip down to his underwear (not a pretty sight) and come in the living room with only a sheet wrapped around him. He made a turban out of a towel and a septer out of a toilet plunger. They had a script that made Lewis Caroll's poems seem logical. ('Alice in Wonderland') My brothers played the followers wearing dog collars and following his every absurd command. They had a secret handshake and their own mantra. They also used to chant 'Jaya my 'new cult name'.

He had a 'Caligula' Roman theme crossed with the 'Manchurian Candidate' (one of Dad's favorite movies). Used to humiliate the sh*t out of me. This thorn in my side actually kept certain synapses alive in my brain that ultimately would see the absurdity of the group I had joined!

When I left the group my family was very kind and never embarrassed me again or said. "I told you so." or "You were such an idiot." Good people. They realized I was embarassed enough and were just glad to have me back.

Zelig,
Your father and brothers were brilliant to do what they did! That was truly original intervention! Too bad other cultists didn't have family like yours.

I'm not sure which groups you all were involved in but religious groups can use pretty strong brain changing techniques and indoctrination. The following is what I have discovered about the cult system particularly Science of Identity along with my own observations.

They start with absolute statements that *seem* logical and non-contradictory and build on that. If you accept these absolutes as true then all else flows forth naturally. An absurdity can be introduced like hate, phobias and/or paranoia which will then create a negative dependency on other individuals (see Harry Harlow's studies into affection and social isolation and deprivation) especially on a guru and like-minded individuals. Social isolation causes blank staring, pacing and even self-mutilation or self-destructive behaviors. Negative reinforcement or punishment (abuse, humiliation, fear of leaving, or witholding basic survival needs such as food, water affection) causes a person to become dependent on reward and you lose confidence and your inate sense of curiosity, particularly due to lack of affection which is higher on the list of survival needs than independence. This form of behavior modification doesn't make you a willing follower but you follow to avoid punishment. This means your motivation to behave in an appropriate manner dwindles easily causing negative behaviors eventuating in further greif, guilt and self-doubt. Sounds wonderful don't it?

In the Science of Identity four imperfections of the mind are used:

1. His senses are imperfect.
2. He is subject to illusion
3. He is certain to commit mistakes
4. He has a propensity to cheat others.

Now we can't disagree that there are idiots, liars and delusional people in the world and that we all make mistakes. Chris Butler then takes it to the next level where you should realise your thoughts are prone to fallibility and therefore avoid the whole problem by not thinking (All decisions are to be made by guru). This is like a fanatical distortion of buddhism.

Of course you've accepted all else he has stated as being true so in a way you accept this to be true as well - slowly you come around. Also by teaching constantly that you are not your body and mind you therefore do not really know your true self. Your friends and family don't understand you either. Infact noone except guru does and everybody else in society is attempting to infuence you into their own ignorant ideas. So by this stage you don't think and are hateful, phobic and paranoid of everyone and made to believe this is the only way you will be happy. Sounds absurd but to varying degrees people come to believe the absurdly illlogical through strongly implanted convoluted twists of common knowledge or word jugglery. (It's sounds like you all have had similar experience to this.)

To assist the process a method called Yoga Nidra (a deeper form of hypnosis) is used which is particularly effective in creating a permanent change to your awareness. Maharishi has been sued because it messed up people's heads to the point they were no longer able to function normally in decision making, short and long term memory was affected and spacial recognition decreases. In Yoga Nidra spacial recognition and time is no longer a focus for the brain so this area shrinks. Regular chanting of mantras or songs in a meditative state (meaning daily for at least an hour or more) has the same effect although slower but using both together especially is extremely damaging. After 5-6 years of using either of these methods permanent changes to your brain will occur. Particularly if the religious group doesn't tell you exactly what you are engaging in so you can be aware of what is happening to you as these particular types of meditation are designed to produce a certain effect through developing and exploring other types of consciousness. If you are not made explicitly aware and you think it's not affecting you all it does is shrink your brain and imprint ideas into your deepest consciousness (The part of your mind that remains active during deep sleep - dream state). Practicing types of anti-anxiety relaxation practices (muscle and facial relaxation and Yoga Nidra), coupled with being told heightened forms of hypothetical fearful situations (not necessarily at the same time), desensitises your brain to situations that may normally cause a subconscious reaction in your nervous system and even to forms of discomfort (hot or cold, pain) (see BF Skinner and Tantric Yoga). Then I would say it is extremely difficult to go back to exactly how you were before or even fully remember. Neuron connectivity would decrease and it is a fact that your brain can largely decrease in *total volume* the less you use it (meaning your whole brain shrinks not just calculated on one or two areas. The total white and grey cells and total neurons). So this would occur if you are constantly told your mind is untrustworthy and you constantly try to avoid or give up on thoughts you would normally engage in and be encouraged to do so. And much of the connectivity that is not decreased would be altered significantly.

Skeptics idea of educating yourself is definately a good cure by increasing brain activity. The brain is an amazing thing and while much of your brain is altered dramatically there is much you can do to retrain it (Even up to 80-90 years old you can increase brain size and activity). Some of the deeper ideas that we accepted as absolutes in the first place, because they just made so much sense :roll:, would definately stick around. In the absense of a more influencial personal philosophy to overide these thoughts it would be like an immunity to drugs. The dominant thoughts carry on with nothing to counteract it. My only suggestion is to use much openmindedness (independent thought not controlled by strict doctrines) and be curious about life and people which is training yourself in the exact opposite of what destructive cults instill in us and yet ironically probably what got us involved in the first place. But it is one positive trait that we shouldn't let go of or let others take away from us.

Mathematically, as exemplified by what is called Russel's paradox, absolute black and whites cannot exist. A mathemetician once attempted to create an absolute theory of everything which was counteracted by Bertrand Russel in his letter to Frege. If half the town has their hair cut by the barber and the other half cuts their own hair, who cuts the barber's hair?

or - If all sets that do not contain themselves fit into A, where A is a set of A, then you are simultaneously stating that A does and does not fit into A. It's an inevitable contradiction.

Subsequently Frege's career was ruined. Most religions try to make absolute statements and contradict themselves in doing so. In the Bible word jugglery is used by stating death spreads to all because all have sinned. There is a contradiction because death is implicit to birth so sin is not the cause of death. The attempt to resolve this issue is that we are born into system of influence that causes us to sin. But if influence is the source of sin then the system of influence to sin existed before sin became punishable. How is that possible? We have 'free will' not to sin but all have sinned: contradiction. It also states sin exised before the law and therefore is not reckoned by the law. So a sin is a punishable offense if and only if you are told not to engage in it. So if sin itself is not punishable then why were we told not to engage in it in the first place? Contradictions will occur because black and white absolutes become paradoxical.

So if you find yourself having difficulty getting rid of these absolute thoughts and it's really still a problem (and you wish you were atheistic and had never heard of cults to begin with), as I have at times, just remember fanatical thoughts are not even mathematically logical. The only way we are doomed (contrary to what we were taught) is when we loose critical thinking and openmindedness. So try not to take paranoid fanatics and their ideas seriously. Be very careful to if you ever plan to engage in meditative practices or theologies again to know exactly what it is doing to your brain (to aviod it becoming dangerous) and maintain a balance in life. Although once bitten twice shy is an appropriate adage to use here.