What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
JackSF
()
Date: February 13, 2004 01:27AM
Just so people know what I mean when I use the term "ad hominem"...Quote
Attacking the Person (Ad Hominem Argument)
This error is committed when a person's characteristics or circumstances are irrelevantly attacked in order to discreedit her arguments or views. An arguer's personal characteristics are never relevant to the strength or soundness of her argument.
--The Criticial Thinking Handbook , Bierman & Assali
elena -- I post here because I am interested in cults and Landmark, and I find discussion of both interesting.
At this point I am also curious as to whether it is possible in this forum to dissent from the anti-Landmark view without receiving ad hominem attacks, which is often your response.
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
LoriS
()
Date: February 13, 2004 04:13AM
Jack,
I had asked some questions of you earlier in the thread that you never responded to. I'd like to hear your thoughts on some things.
Having read, I'm sure, the many stories of participants who have had adverse reactions to Landmark, have you witnessed anything similar in your experience? Have you seen people post Forum make decisions that have been seen as drastic, dangerous, or upsetting to their friends and family? Have any of your fellow grads had problems with their marriages or other significant relationships after the courses? Anyone become suicidal? Have you had any adverse experiences in your own life as a result of your particpation? Do the people close to you who haven't gone "get" what you're doing?
If you have witnessed any of those things, how have you reconciled them with your experience of Landmark? Even after having read of these types of things on the 'net, how do you feel about those outcomes now?
How would you personally respond to someone seeking help because of an adverse Landmark experience? How could you explain to a family member of a participant what has happened to their loved one?
Do you feel, because of your participation in Landmark, "different" than others? "On a different level" perhaps? If so, how does that affect your relationship with those "others"?
Are you recruiting for Landmark? Are you bringing people to meetings?
I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this.
Lori
I had asked some questions of you earlier in the thread that you never responded to. I'd like to hear your thoughts on some things.
Having read, I'm sure, the many stories of participants who have had adverse reactions to Landmark, have you witnessed anything similar in your experience? Have you seen people post Forum make decisions that have been seen as drastic, dangerous, or upsetting to their friends and family? Have any of your fellow grads had problems with their marriages or other significant relationships after the courses? Anyone become suicidal? Have you had any adverse experiences in your own life as a result of your particpation? Do the people close to you who haven't gone "get" what you're doing?
If you have witnessed any of those things, how have you reconciled them with your experience of Landmark? Even after having read of these types of things on the 'net, how do you feel about those outcomes now?
How would you personally respond to someone seeking help because of an adverse Landmark experience? How could you explain to a family member of a participant what has happened to their loved one?
Do you feel, because of your participation in Landmark, "different" than others? "On a different level" perhaps? If so, how does that affect your relationship with those "others"?
Are you recruiting for Landmark? Are you bringing people to meetings?
I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this.
Lori
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
patrick-darcy
()
Date: February 13, 2004 12:11PM
Actually I fancy myself as a person who aspires to think for himself in a complex world where most things--including Landmark--are not entirely black or white.
jack, this is one of landmarks most
powerful tools. they take away your
right and wrong u just say its a grey
area. it is not.
As part of that aspiration, I talk to different people with different opinions and come to my own conclusions.
u may not even be able to comprehend the idea but since u have been involved
with landmark u havent had an opinion
or a conclustion that is your own.
they changed your way of thinking.
they changed your way of thinking to a point where they wanted it.
there are even probably some things
about u that have changed that u are
completely and intirely unaware of.
I don't claim to that my conclusions are necessarily right or better than other people's.
of course u dont claim your conslustions
are right. u dont have any.
can u answer this. do u believe that there
is right and wrong ?
And I do think that people can come to different conclusions in good conscience.
it is possible to come to different conclustions in good conscience but u and others like u are losing your conscience.
u are losing your humanity but because
u feel good about it u dont care. u dont
miss it.
jack, this is one of landmarks most
powerful tools. they take away your
right and wrong u just say its a grey
area. it is not.
As part of that aspiration, I talk to different people with different opinions and come to my own conclusions.
u may not even be able to comprehend the idea but since u have been involved
with landmark u havent had an opinion
or a conclustion that is your own.
they changed your way of thinking.
they changed your way of thinking to a point where they wanted it.
there are even probably some things
about u that have changed that u are
completely and intirely unaware of.
I don't claim to that my conclusions are necessarily right or better than other people's.
of course u dont claim your conslustions
are right. u dont have any.
can u answer this. do u believe that there
is right and wrong ?
And I do think that people can come to different conclusions in good conscience.
it is possible to come to different conclustions in good conscience but u and others like u are losing your conscience.
u are losing your humanity but because
u feel good about it u dont care. u dont
miss it.
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
MarkusWelch
()
Date: February 13, 2004 01:26PM
<Snipped>
Jack,
First, what makes you think you are dissenting? Lack of your identification of the concepts involved does not equal dissent. Have you dismissed the fact that you are spending *your* money, yet again, to determine if something is *worth* anything (or nothing), after the fact, perhaps?
Second, you're not dissenting. You're not even a somewhat satisfied customer though, dissenting or not, to them. You are a product.
Regards,
Markus
Quote
Is dissent possible in this forum? Or must it always be met with derision and ad hominem attacks such as the above?
Jack,
First, what makes you think you are dissenting? Lack of your identification of the concepts involved does not equal dissent. Have you dismissed the fact that you are spending *your* money, yet again, to determine if something is *worth* anything (or nothing), after the fact, perhaps?
Second, you're not dissenting. You're not even a somewhat satisfied customer though, dissenting or not, to them. You are a product.
Regards,
Markus
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
JackSF
()
Date: February 14, 2004 01:05PM
Lori,
Thank you for not responding with ad hominems. That's a large number of questions, so I may not get to all of them.
Keep in mind that I only took the Forum four months ago. I have one Landmark friend, aside from some acquaintances I met under other circumstances and whom I see only occasionally. I have not kept up with any people from the Forum or the Advanced Course.
Other than some big drama when one guy walked out of the Advanced Course (and who came back an hour later to become one of the most active participants), I have not witnessed any adverse reactions in Landmark. Nor did I see any such reactions at the est Trainings I attended or assisted at way back when. However, I don't doubt that such things have happened either.
My Landmark friend tells me that participation in Landmark saved her marriage over the last six months. That's what she says, though I have no way to assess her claim other than to observe that they are still together. For me the most upsetting aspect of Landmark has been working through my concern about whether it was a cult. Other than that I've had several personal breakthroughs which have brought me back to participate more.
My friends and family are mixed. Most don't care. I'm always looking into one thing or another, so to them it's just another thing I'm doing. Two of my closest friends, however, really dislike Landmark. But since I haven't become a Landmark zombie or bugged them to come to introductions, they are settling down about it. Plus, they've also heard me trash est and make fun of Landmark. I haven't brought anyone to meetings or recruited anyone.
I don't feel "different" from others on account of Landmark. I don't see Landmark as The Answer. I'm liking it and when I like things, I go out at them pretty strong but I don't expect other people to like what I like.
As to your questions about risk and damages--I do consider Landmark to have risks and your concerns are valid. It's a shockingly powerful experience. However, this post has gone on long enough. I'll get to those tomorrow. Promise.
Jack
Thank you for not responding with ad hominems. That's a large number of questions, so I may not get to all of them.
Keep in mind that I only took the Forum four months ago. I have one Landmark friend, aside from some acquaintances I met under other circumstances and whom I see only occasionally. I have not kept up with any people from the Forum or the Advanced Course.
Other than some big drama when one guy walked out of the Advanced Course (and who came back an hour later to become one of the most active participants), I have not witnessed any adverse reactions in Landmark. Nor did I see any such reactions at the est Trainings I attended or assisted at way back when. However, I don't doubt that such things have happened either.
My Landmark friend tells me that participation in Landmark saved her marriage over the last six months. That's what she says, though I have no way to assess her claim other than to observe that they are still together. For me the most upsetting aspect of Landmark has been working through my concern about whether it was a cult. Other than that I've had several personal breakthroughs which have brought me back to participate more.
My friends and family are mixed. Most don't care. I'm always looking into one thing or another, so to them it's just another thing I'm doing. Two of my closest friends, however, really dislike Landmark. But since I haven't become a Landmark zombie or bugged them to come to introductions, they are settling down about it. Plus, they've also heard me trash est and make fun of Landmark. I haven't brought anyone to meetings or recruited anyone.
I don't feel "different" from others on account of Landmark. I don't see Landmark as The Answer. I'm liking it and when I like things, I go out at them pretty strong but I don't expect other people to like what I like.
As to your questions about risk and damages--I do consider Landmark to have risks and your concerns are valid. It's a shockingly powerful experience. However, this post has gone on long enough. I'll get to those tomorrow. Promise.
Jack
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
JackSF
()
Date: February 14, 2004 01:08PM
>First, what makes you think you are dissenting?
dissent -- to differ in opinion or feeling; disagree.
>u may not even be able to comprehend the idea but since u have been
>involved with landmark u havent had an opinion or a conclustion that
>is your own.
>
>of course u dont claim your conslustions are right. u dont have any.
>
>u feel good about it u dont care. u dont miss it.
>
>You're not even a somewhat satisfied customer though, dissenting or
>not, to them. You are a product.
Attacking the Person (Ad Hominem Argument)
This error is committed when a person's characteristics or circumstances are irrelevantly attacked in order to discreedit her arguments or views. An arguer's personal characteristics are never relevant to the strength or soundness of her argument.
--The Criticial Thinking Handbook , Bierman & Assali
dissent -- to differ in opinion or feeling; disagree.
>u may not even be able to comprehend the idea but since u have been
>involved with landmark u havent had an opinion or a conclustion that
>is your own.
>
>of course u dont claim your conslustions are right. u dont have any.
>
>u feel good about it u dont care. u dont miss it.
>
>You're not even a somewhat satisfied customer though, dissenting or
>not, to them. You are a product.
Attacking the Person (Ad Hominem Argument)
This error is committed when a person's characteristics or circumstances are irrelevantly attacked in order to discreedit her arguments or views. An arguer's personal characteristics are never relevant to the strength or soundness of her argument.
--The Criticial Thinking Handbook , Bierman & Assali
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
MarkusWelch
()
Date: February 14, 2004 10:34PM
Jack,
1. You claim you dissent and you participate which amounts to what? No Jack, not on your terms...their terms. What does it amount to on their terms? We can talk about your terms too, but recognize that this is not the point of the question, or the majority of the comments/questions directed to you.
2. Re-read some of the comments you quoted here (below) as something other than an attack on you. No need to defend an activity or characteristic for which you were not responsible.
Regards,
Markus
1. You claim you dissent and you participate which amounts to what? No Jack, not on your terms...their terms. What does it amount to on their terms? We can talk about your terms too, but recognize that this is not the point of the question, or the majority of the comments/questions directed to you.
2. Re-read some of the comments you quoted here (below) as something other than an attack on you. No need to defend an activity or characteristic for which you were not responsible.
Regards,
Markus
Quote
JackSF
>First, what makes you think you are dissenting?
dissent -- to differ in opinion or feeling; disagree.
>u may not even be able to comprehend the idea but since u have been
>involved with landmark u havent had an opinion or a conclustion that
>is your own.
>
>of course u dont claim your conslustions are right. u dont have any.
>
>u feel good about it u dont care. u dont miss it.
>
>You're not even a somewhat satisfied customer though, dissenting or
>not, to them. You are a product.
Attacking the Person (Ad Hominem Argument)
This error is committed when a person's characteristics or circumstances are irrelevantly attacked in order to discreedit her arguments or views. An arguer's personal characteristics are never relevant to the strength or soundness of her argument.
--The Criticial Thinking Handbook , Bierman & Assali
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
righttofight
()
Date: February 15, 2004 01:43AM
That's like saying "What's good about self mutilation?"
Do you have to ask?
Do you have to ask?
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
patrick-darcy
()
Date: February 15, 2004 04:06AM
no one is attacking u. attempting to
have a conversation with u is what i am doing.
i have a question.
in your new way of thinking do u believe
their is right and wrong. ?
marcus would u mind sending me that
email again.
thanks
have a conversation with u is what i am doing.
i have a question.
in your new way of thinking do u believe
their is right and wrong. ?
marcus would u mind sending me that
email again.
thanks
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
JackSF
()
Date: February 15, 2004 11:22PM
Lori,
Sorry for being late with this response.
As to your questons about adverse reactions. Landmark can be a stressful experience. They have toned it down considerably since the est days, but even so. I don't think Landmark is for everyone.
However, the blunt fact is that just about everything has risks. For instance it's not well-known but each year six of seven Amercan teenage boys die--not just suffer some kind of breakdown--they die while playing high school football. Some years the number is much higher. Plus there are many more injuries, often permanent, and I'll bet many boys have been emotionally damaged from high school football too. My rough estimate is that high school football is more dangerous per capita than Landmark.
How can this be? Why no outcry? No one needs to play high school football. If you've ever watched and enjoyed a high school football game, how would you comfort a family who has lost a loved one to this game?
I'm sorry people are hurt during Landmark. I would comfort their families as best I could depending on the circumstances.
What I'm saying probably won't satsify you. My impression is that Landmark, like many things in life, is rigorous enough to be risky, but to me the risk still looks acceptable. If the casualties were higher, at some point that would tip for me. I'm not sure where that threshold is.
Jack
Sorry for being late with this response.
As to your questons about adverse reactions. Landmark can be a stressful experience. They have toned it down considerably since the est days, but even so. I don't think Landmark is for everyone.
However, the blunt fact is that just about everything has risks. For instance it's not well-known but each year six of seven Amercan teenage boys die--not just suffer some kind of breakdown--they die while playing high school football. Some years the number is much higher. Plus there are many more injuries, often permanent, and I'll bet many boys have been emotionally damaged from high school football too. My rough estimate is that high school football is more dangerous per capita than Landmark.
How can this be? Why no outcry? No one needs to play high school football. If you've ever watched and enjoyed a high school football game, how would you comfort a family who has lost a loved one to this game?
I'm sorry people are hurt during Landmark. I would comfort their families as best I could depending on the circumstances.
What I'm saying probably won't satsify you. My impression is that Landmark, like many things in life, is rigorous enough to be risky, but to me the risk still looks acceptable. If the casualties were higher, at some point that would tip for me. I'm not sure where that threshold is.
Jack
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