Jack,

You're naive...there I said it. Are you happy now?

Welcome to the land of the naive!
You're home now. You're one of us.

Oh Jack...

It's not about disagreeing or agreeing.

I could give a fart if you agree with me or not.
Really.
You don't know your a** from a hole in the ground and you don't know you don't know. You just opine. You'll never know because they'll never let you in far enough.

Just the facts, ma'am.

It's actually about knowing and guessing.
I worked there and you pay money for having a mind virus implanted thinking it's a wonderful adventure.

Don't be insulted by reality, it's like being upset that the sky is blue instead of yellow.

Btw, ever been on the autobahn? Nice highway.

Some more enlightened courts allow the victims of a criminal to participate in his sentencing and incarceration. Traditionally, victims were excluded from the public exercise of adjudication and parole as somehow "contaminating" the proceedings or drawing them into a prejudicial stance unfair to the criminal. But some in the criminal justice system recognized that this exclusion did the opposite. Omitting the impact of the crime on its victims was leaving out the most important part of the event, sociologically, culturally, and morally. In the spirit of destroying the Landmark "memes," I think the victim's testimonies are the most reflective, the most compelling, and the most likely to close the Landmark doors and send the rascals packing. I am hopeful that the amount of information available on the internet disparaging of Landmark will reach critical mass and these creeps and all their relatives will never again fool another person.

Here's a link to another website with a great visitor's comments page. (He also includes those comments favorable to Landmark, and those can be equally damaging, or more in some cases.)



[homepage.mac.com]



Ellen

gc -- Thanks, your post contains exactly the detailed specifics that I appreciate. Having assisted at est I knew that special targeting was an ongoing practice and from what little I've seen at Landmark it's clear there is special handling for people who would supply entrance into other communities.

Everyone -- It may be a drag, but I am going to come to my own conclusions in my own way on this one. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think find your posts valuable. Nonetheless, I'm not interested in being addressed directly about my psychology or my naivete or my deludedness or whatever.

If there's no room here to say anything good about Landmark, let me know. Maybe the moderator can just delete this thread.

of course u can post here.
in fact i recommend it. the more
u post the more people can learn
about landmark, isnt that great ?

Asking what's good about Landmark is sort of like asking what's good about fascism. There will always be lots of people willing to find good things to say about fascism. They have their own press, audience, closed, controlled environment, and no one is stopping them from enumerating all the good things they can come up with. And yes, the trains ran on time. So what? If there were nothing good about Landmark, there would be no "bait." Without "bait" there would be no "enrollees." The "bait" is an illusion, but we are big on selling illusions in this cult[ture].

Ellen

Oh Jack,

Originally posted by JackSF
"Nonetheless, I'm not interested in being addressed directly about my psychology or my naivete or my deludedness or whatever. "

Oh really?
Do you remeber this?

"Guy -- Call me naive, but I have the idea..."

You are adding the "psychology", "deludedness" or "whatever" to the thread.

You are naive Jack. You can't help it.
There's nothing wrong about that.
You don't know what is going on and all you get is the "experience" of the effects.
They might feel good now...

GC4062 and I are telling you straight from the horses mouth what's going on.

If you want to use some Werner Style manipulation phrases, you'll have to do better than :
"If there's no room here to say anything good about Landmark, let me know."

No room.....:rolleyes:

Where do you think you learned that phrase from?
Where on earth would that have any real meaning except after LEC training?

No room.....:rolleyes:

If there's no room here to say anything good about the Nazi's, let me know.

Love that autobahn...:D

Sometimes Jack it might be a good thing if those that know what is going on, tell others. If you follow my meaning.

Let me allegorize for a moment.

I sell merry-go round rides.
I tell you that you'll get all these wonderful benefits from it.
What happens is you spin round and round and the centrifical action bursts cappillaries in your brain.
It gives you a warm feeling inside, you see colors and to get the effects you have to ride again.
I quit because I found out there are no wonderful benefits, it causes brain damage, and it's just a cash cow for cons.

We're telling you it's bad for your brain and you're telling me how good it feels.

No room.....:rolleyes:

Guy -- End of the personal discussion. I'm interested in what you have to sav about Landmark, not about me. Period.

I'm sorry Jack.
:(

I just can't help but notice the discrepencies.....(the quotes are yours below, Jack)

"I do remember that I found est/Landmark upsetting for quite some time after I left. Five years later at the invitation of an acquaintance who was an Introduction Leader, my girlfriend and I attended an Introduction. I was trembling most of the time and wouldn't dare to ask a question or interact with the Landmark staff or graduates in that environment."

And from an earlier post....

"...I find Landmark and its teachings fascinating in themselves. The "Transformation" and "The Way the Landmark Forum Works" pieces that we studied in the Advanced Course amaze me--just jewel-like language that says so much and so little. Makes me shiver and laugh at the same time! Just brilliant. I wish I had written them..."

and

"...I did come out of the Forum and the AC stronger than I went in. Now maybe that's spelled P-L-A-C-E-B-O, but I've been more confident and having more fun since the courses. Like when I first did est, I feel a grand permission to be myself and not to take things so seriously. I'm curious to see if I can make this crazy Landmark stuff I learned work in my real life."

Well, which is it?

"...upsetting for quite some time" and "...trembling most of the time and wouldn't dare to ask a question or interact"

or

"...been more confident and having more fun since the courses. Like when I first did est, I feel a grand permission to be myself and not to take things so seriously..."

I'm pointing to something fundamental to the thread here and all you can hear is a personal discussion.

Look at "wouldn't dare to ask" and "grand permission" and see if you can reconcile the polarity.

It's not about you, darling.

Comma.

Guy -- You asked for it. Now I'm going to "share"!

This week I have a houseguest, one of my oldest, dearest friends that I've known since high school. While he's been here, we've talked over the Landmark stuff. He said that as he remembers me before and after the est Training, and he said that he saw a big change in me--that I came out from the intense shyness of my teens and early twenties, that I became more comfortable with people, relaxed and outgoing, that I was trying new things and even my posture changed to a more upright bearing.

That matches pretty well with what I remember. After the est Training I did feel a grand permission to be myself, to try new things and not be so nervous around people. I'm glad I did it. I was tremendously excited about est and it took six years for the rest of the est BS to extinguish that excitement. But I didn't go back to who I was before est. I kept the good parts for myself. Ironically, even in leaving est, I felt I was being true to the self-esteem, courage, and honesty I had learned while there.

Yes. I know I have intense, mixed thoughts and feelings about est and Landmark.

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)

--Walt Whitman, "Song of Myself"

Thanks for sharing!:D

Wow, you went in slumped over, uncomfortable with people, nervous, and introverted and came out "comfortable with people, relaxed and outgoing, that I was trying new things and even my posture changed to a more upright bearing."

That's awesome! That stuff's not even in the brochure.

I must be all wrong then.
GC4062....go home apostate!
What was I thinking?
Gosh those Rosenburg brothers really are the humanitarian gifts from heaven they keep saying they are.

Personal testimonies are really great for enrollment techniques and hardly assailable, aren't they?

We practiced our "killer shares" for hours, read them to each other, edited them to make them smooth, and whipped them out to knock'em over.

I loved how "in leaving est, I felt I was being true to the self-esteem, courage, and honesty I had learned while there"

That was the killer for me.
Aaaaahhhhh, the nobility!

Gee, I guess if Walt Whitman says it's okay....
:rolleyes:
Contradict away my friend!