I have recently heard about this large group awareness training course called Relationships 123. After looking through their website,
[relationships123.com]
they are using jargon very similar to Landmark Education/Est Training :

Quote

Relationships 123 is in the [b:c1a9db77dd]business of causing[/b:c1a9db77dd] relationship dreams to come true, by [b:c1a9db77dd]powerfully distinguishing[/b:c1a9db77dd] the differences between men and women. We provide weekend programs, seminars and coaching using the simple model we present in our flagship weekend program.

The Relationships 123 entry level program, Relationships 123 Inspired Relationships Program®, is a weekend program for men and women, which [b:c1a9db77dd]transforms[/b:c1a9db77dd] the way men and women relate to each other.

(I have bolded some of the jargon terms which are similar if not verbatim from Landmark Forum)

There is [b:c1a9db77dd]zero[/b:c1a9db77dd] information on the website about the Teachers' qualifications or training or psychotherapeutic credentials, if any. Like The Landmark Forum, the course days are very long, 9am to 11pm. Interestingly enough, their first course is the exact same price as The Forum, at $450! They refer to people who have gone through their training as "graduates".

I have a close friend who is interested in doing this course with his girlfriend, and I need to get more information about this in order to warn him off - looks like a bogus knock off of the controversial Landmark Forum to me.

Anyone have more info?

Here are their profiles on LinkedIn:

Emmett Culley
[www.linkedin.com]

Denise Culley
[www.linkedin.com]

Dear ajinajan,

A friend of ours sent me your posting. How amusing.
First of all, we are not a Landmark knock-off. Since when does Landmark own that language. I think you give Landmark too much credit. They are not the originators nor the sole proprietors of transformational training. I know they would like you to think that, but they aren't.

Second, if you want to know about us, how about calling us. We don't bite and we won't hypnotize you over the phone.

We are a grassroots husband and wife company that teaches our successful approach to having the relationship of your dreams. In fact, the roots of our program are the writings of Dr. Tannen, Dr. Baranco and others, none of which are Landmark people.
We do not provide large group programs like Landmark. Far from it! In fact, we limit the size of our programs to only 18 people, because the program is quite intimate in experience. We have well over 300 happy clients.

We teach a model for communication, romance and more importantly, the differences between men and women.
The only people who know about us are referred by happy clients. It's all word of mouth. We hope to expand to be discovered by others, but quite frankly we are so busy just handling the current growth of our program we are not able to give it much time. For instance, we just lead our first program in Virginia at the request of a friend of a client. And now, as a result of the success for the happy couples and singles in that program, we have been asked to lead our program again in Virginia as well as South Carolina, and Illinois.

Why do people love our program? Because it's fresh and on the mark! We teach from the writings of other experts in a format that is fun, playful and entertaining. Our talent is presenting in a style that is so inspiring and simple that people love how easy it is to remember and implement their new relationship tools into their lives.

The usual reaction upon completions is: "They should teach this in the schools! Why was I not told this before?"

Unlike Landmark, we don't have an organization of staff or volunteers. We don't promote our program, by way of ambush marketing or group introductions.

If your friends were thinking about our program, they can call and discover for themselves whether they like us or not. Because it's not just the information that is fantastic, it's our approach, our style and authenticity. When you only accept 18 people at a time, it's easy to say "if you are reluctant, don't attend!"

The easiest way to gain that impression is through a free initial consultation to see if we can work together. I think this is a win win, since they get exposure to our style and I see whether their needs or goals can be achieved in our weekend program. That is another way in which we are NOT like a Landmark organization. We don't feel that everyone should do our program. Also we offer a money back refund policy with confidence since we are sure that the people who decide to attend our program are excited and will benefit from it. This is not therapy. Therefore we don't need psychotherapeutic credentials. We are not interested in diagnosing or analyzing anyone. In fact if therapy is what is required, we recommend they see a therapist instead.

We teach by providing exercises, interactions and amusing anecdotes illustrating what is commonly misunderstood in male / female relationships. I think the greatest lesson people learn is more about how similar their issues are to others, in most relationships. After the course on Saturday, the group gets ready for a fabulous romantic dinner which typically ends around 11pm. We make a more general statement about the hours so that people don't have the expectation that they will have time to leave and be with their pets, kids, or friends during the time between. This is why the hours seem long. The class time ends at 6 pm, but immediately after the course, they start playing a game for learning how to create romance in their life, by planning their dinner date. Missing out on the dinner is not an option, because the dinner is where they really practice romance. Everyone wants romance in their life, and this dinner teaches them how to create it easily. Now, if someone is of the opinion that they don't want to learn romance, then there is no point to attending the course.

Romance is easy to achieve if you know how to be partners in romance. Often the men come back and say, "At first I thought this is so cheezy, but I learned this is what women really want!" By the way, we don't go to dinner with the group. They are totally on their own to enjoy their romance without any further guidance from us.

As for credentials I guess I could have posted my corporate role as a trainer and course developer, and perhaps I will add something now. Our best credentials are the results of our clients. As a husband and wife that exemplifies the model we teach, we are also the reason why our program is so successful.

Hopefully you can see in this posting that we are just down to earth people who want to make a difference in the world. I wish we could have the impact that Oprah, Bono or others have for doing more for people than just making money. Or are you going to fault us too for wanting to be more like them? We can't do what they do, but we are happy knowing that we make a difference 18 people at a time.

Thanks for bringing us up!
Denise Culley
:)

The use of the word "transform" is common in the personal development field and does not necessarily indicate a manipulative organization.

The concept of "distinguishing" is also not owned by Landmark and is used by a lot of personal coaches, many of whom do have solid credentials in traditional psychotherapy.

This seminar, to me, seems harmless. It might be fruity, but nothing sinister. They appear to be two small business owners trying to help people. Hardly in the same league as the Landmark juggernaut.

Quote

The use of the word "transform" is common in the personal development field and does not necessarily indicate a manipulative organization.

The concept of "distinguishing" is also not owned by Landmark and is used by a lot of personal coaches, many of whom do have solid credentials in traditional psychotherapy.

This seminar, to me, seems harmless. It might be fruity, but nothing sinister. They appear to be two small business owners trying to help people. Hardly in the same league as the Landmark juggernaut.

I am not convinced that there is not some sort of connection between Landmark Education or some other sort of controversial Large Group Awareness Training or Human Potential Movement programs e.g. Mind Dynamics or Lifespring etc., and Relationships 123.

All of the factors that I had mentioned above just seem too fishy:

1) The long hours.
2) The use of words and phrases like "transform", "business of causing", "powerfully distinguishing", etc.
3) The long hours.
4) The insistence on their website that you will not get everything out of the course if you are not present in the course the entire time.

and more.

And no, by credentials, I was not thinking of "corporate role as a trainer and course developer", I was thinking more along the lines of any sort of training whatsoever in mental health, psychotherapy, social work, master's degree in psychology, Ph.D., perhaps even a bachelor's degree in psychology, or anything of that nature.

I wonder if either of the founders of the company had previously undergone any sort of training in Landmark Education or other types of Large Group Awareness Training or Human Potential Movement seminars and decided to branch off on their own instead?

Quote

I wonder if either of the founders of the company had previously undergone any sort of training in Landmark Education or other types of Large Group Awareness Training or Human Potential Movement seminars and decided to branch off on their own instead?

Looks like they have now modified their website to remove some of the loaded language/jargon that seemed similar to certain types of controversial Large Group Awareness Training.

Still makes one wonder about what's behind those eery similarities...

for what its worth I believe you're justified to suspect something not being up to par with adequate or even valid training for the type of 'work' being conducted and advertised. I came across this same site a couple of months ago as well and simply brushed it off as another LGAT type of way for someone to make a living.
The inquiry about credentials was never fully addressed, that in itself is a red flag. I don't think filling the "corporate role as a trainer and course developer", passes as credentials either.

Heck, you and I could start a 'self-help' type of organization where we 'empower', lets say, cousins and siblings to develope and maintain 'extraordinary' relationships etc. and I could be the 'track-record proven' successful CEO while you be the widely experienced dynamic and engaging programme developer! Guru 'A' at your service.... :roll: 'follow me into the mystic....' :wink:
If all we needed to succeed at bringing in the business was spruced up self appointed titles, I think we could manage to pin down the roles we 'created' for ourselves, but it would never mean that we were a safe bet for self-help or even for giving advice on healthy and empowering relationships between cousins and siblings! (I use cousins and siblings as examples because I have yet to find in a search, an LGAT that targets cousins or siblings specifically, as family units....can you imagine what a typical family of siblings or cousins could do to the harmony and cohesion needed for a successful LGAT weekend environment?? I know what kind of damage I could do with just one brother much less all of my sibs or cousins! 8) )

I like how one of the responses you got accuses you of giving landmark too much credit...that response in itself suggests LGAT, it was weak, lacking meaningful thought...

Quote

Dear ajinajan,

A friend of ours sent me your posting. How amusing.

Sarcasm? Or are you amused that someone from your 'fold' has had the gall to seek out other information?

Quote

First of all, we are not a Landmark knock-off. Since when does Landmark own that language. I think you give Landmark too much credit. They are not the originators nor the sole proprietors of transformational training. I know they would like you to think that, but they aren't.

We're fully aware that transformational language is an open source commodity. It does, however, leave a bad taste in my mouth when language seems to connect groups, especially those offering similar awareness training. Landmark does own certain words and phrases - just follow the trademark symbols.

Quote

Second, if you want to know about us, how about calling us. We don't bite and we won't hypnotize you over the phone.

How does calling you differ from what you can share here in black and white? Why must you state that you don't bite and that you won't hypnotise over the phone? Sounds like the language of real estate/used car salespeople, meaning that those techniques are indeed employed once you get us through the door.

Quote

We are a grassroots husband and wife company that teaches our successful approach to having the relationship of your dreams. In fact, the roots of our program are the writings of Dr. Tannen, Dr. Baranco and others, none of which are Landmark people.
We do not provide large group programs like Landmark. Far from it! In fact, we limit the size of our programs to only 18 people, because the program is quite intimate in experience. We have well over 300 happy clients.

Every company starts off at grassroots level. You later mention that your intention, like most companies, is to expand beyond grassroots. What will your argument be then? Or doesn't it matter because you'll have more resources to hide behind? Relationship of my dreams? Did I mention hyperbole? Save your sales pitch. 300 happy clients? How many unhappy ones?

Quote

We teach a model for communication, romance and more importantly, the differences between men and women.
The only people who know about us are referred by happy clients. It's all word of mouth. We hope to expand to be discovered by others, but quite frankly we are so busy just handling the current growth of our program we are not able to give it much time. For instance, we just lead our first program in Virginia at the request of a friend of a client. And now, as a result of the success for the happy couples and singles in that program, we have been asked to lead our program again in Virginia as well as South Carolina, and Illinois.

Barbara Cartland also taught communication, romance and the differences between the sexes. Nothing wrong with that unless your intention is to take us back to a kind of Golden Age (read: Dark Age). Of course you only want your happy clients to refer others. No doubt some of your unhappy ones will be posting here soon.

Quote

Why do people love our program? Because it's fresh and on the mark! We teach from the writings of other experts in a format that is fun, playful and entertaining. Our talent is presenting in a style that is so inspiring and simple that people love how easy it is to remember and implement their new relationship tools into their lives.

So, what you're saying is to find love you first have to love your program. I can't help thinking that the above paragraph of yours is quite disturbing and revealing. It makes me think that the only talent you have is to 'borrow' other peoples ideas and sell them on in a watered down format. Is it all fun, playful and entertaining?

Quote

The usual reaction upon completions is: "They should teach this in the schools! Why was I not told this before?"

I've heard that from Landmark graduates. I think you're giving yourself away. I also think this is very totalitarian. What do you think?

Quote

Unlike Landmark, we don't have an organization of staff or volunteers. We don't promote our program, by way of ambush marketing or group introductions.

Why this constant need to distance yourself from Landmark? You already mentioned that your sole advertising mechanism was word-of-mouth. And how can you say that you don't promote your program? You're doing it right now.

Quote

If your friends were thinking about our program, they can call and discover for themselves whether they like us or not. Because it's not just the information that is fantastic, it's our approach, our style and authenticity. When you only accept 18 people at a time, it's easy to say "if you are reluctant, don't attend!"

Ah, so you don't want negative press (the opinions and/or research and/or testimonials) of the reluctant. In fact, I'm becoming quite wary of your constant use of hype-words, like fantastic. I suppose, the word means nothing to someone who hasn't experienced this fantasy. And, oh my, that word authentic. Please try and be more original, because Landmark bells are ringing loud and clear.

Quote

The easiest way to gain that impression is through a free initial consultation to see if we can work together. I think this is a win win, since they get exposure to our style and I see whether their needs or goals can be achieved in our weekend program. That is another way in which we are NOT like a Landmark organization. We don't feel that everyone should do our program. Also we offer a money back refund policy with confidence since we are sure that the people who decide to attend our program are excited and will benefit from it. This is not therapy. Therefore we don't need psychotherapeutic credentials. We are not interested in diagnosing or analyzing anyone. In fact if therapy is what is required, we recommend they see a therapist instead.

Landmark also offers a free consultation (they just call it something else). So, it would seem IT IS like a Landmark organisation. You see, Landmark also claims that not everyone should do their program. They also offer a refund and, most importantly, it is done in great confidence (they don't want bad publicity). Not a therapy? Are you contradicting your previous claim? Or have I misdiagnosed 'transformational training'?

Quote

We teach by providing exercises, interactions and amusing anecdotes illustrating what is commonly misunderstood in male / female relationships. I think the greatest lesson people learn is more about how similar their issues are to others, in most relationships. After the course on Saturday, the group gets ready for a fabulous romantic dinner which typically ends around 11pm. We make a more general statement about the hours so that people don't have the expectation that they will have time to leave and be with their pets, kids, or friends during the time between. This is why the hours seem long. The class time ends at 6 pm, but immediately after the course, they start playing a game for learning how to create romance in their life, by planning their dinner date. Missing out on the dinner is not an option, because the dinner is where they really practice romance. Everyone wants romance in their life, and this dinner teaches them how to create it easily. Now, if someone is of the opinion that they don't want to learn romance, then there is no point to attending the course.

But you just stated that 'Eveyone wants romance in their life'. Sounds like there is little flexibility in your approach. Oh, I forgot, you can't make money from the reluctant (read: those whose ideas differ from your own).

Quote

Romance is easy to achieve if you know how to be partners in romance. Often the men come back and say, "At first I thought this is so cheezy, but I learned this is what women really want!" By the way, we don't go to dinner with the group. They are totally on their own to enjoy their romance without any further guidance from us.

So, you obviously use Cartland's romance novels as part of your syllabus (or something very similar). Did I mention that this sounds like the rhetoric of the Dark Ages?

Quote

As for credentials I guess I could have posted my corporate role as a trainer and course developer, and perhaps I will add something now. Our best credentials are the results of our clients. As a husband and wife that exemplifies the model we teach, we are also the reason why our program is so successful.

Time will only tell. Perhaps you posting here will start to test the waters...

Quote

Hopefully you can see in this posting that we are just down to earth people who want to make a difference in the world. I wish we could have the impact that Oprah, Bono or others have for doing more for people than just making money. Or are you going to fault us too for wanting to be more like them? We can't do what they do, but we are happy knowing that we make a difference 18 people at a time.

Boom boom! Caught between the grassroots and the sky. Nothing wrong, I suppose, in wanting the financial strength of an Oprah or Bono, but you seem to digging yourself into a grave by lauding the benefits of the intimacy of your group dynamic and, yet, wanting to reach millions. Which is it?

Quote

Thanks for bringing us up! Denise Culley

No problems, Denise. Maybe we can also hear from your husband.

Dear Denise,

You say " the roots of our program are the writings of Dr. Tannen, Dr. Baranco and others, none of which are Landmark people. "

But are you? Have you ever attended Landmark Forum?

By the way, what are your thoughts on the works of [b:e8ec5a3968]Robert A. Johnson[/b:e8ec5a3968]?

It would indeed seem prudent to atleast read his book, [i:e8ec5a3968]The Psychology Of Romantic Love[/i:e8ec5a3968].