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Quantum Physics and the Self-Help Industry
Posted by: ginah ()
Date: September 13, 2006 11:47PM

I can tell you a little bit about the Shrodinger cat to illustrate QM. To support my view, let me only mention that I am a Ph.D. in physics (not kidding).

So imagine a that a cat ...

(yes!, a live cat "animal") is put inside a box together with a mechanism that includes a radioactive atom and a poisonous vial that will kill the cat if broken. The vial will be broken depending if the radioactive atom will decay (disintegrate) spontaneously or not after a certain time.

According to Quantum Mechanics (QM), the atom has a "probability" of one-half to decay after one half-life (suppose 1 hour). Since QM is a complete theory, it describes nature accurately and completely (this is fundamental!). So, what it means is after one hour, the atom is in a "mixture of states", meaning it is both "decayed" AND "not-decayed" at the same time (this is one of the strange feature of QM and reality)!

If the system is left unaltered and "unobserved", the extension of the QM description of reality from the microscopic atom to the macroscopic cat means that the complete system (atom-vial-cat) is in a mixture of both states where the cat is both dead AND alive (atom decayed+vial broken = dead cat; atom not decayed+vial intact = cat alive). However, it is not clear where the QM description of reality breaks down between the single atom (microscopic) and the 10^26 atoms that constitute the cat (macroscopic world). An experiment at NIST has now demonstrated the QM description extends to at least 6 atoms (they used berylium atoms in a mixed state), 25 orders of magnitude short of explaining the cat's fate!

This is where New Agers abandon science altogether to adopt a philosophy based on pure speculations. New Agers will claim that, yes indeed, the cat is both "dead AND alive" (some will say in parallel universes). This is the "world of infinite possibilities" as it is claimed by many New Agers ... (exactly what the movie "What the Bleep ..." is all about). The speculation continues and the "creation of reality" comes into play when a "conscious observer" looks inside the box to see what happened to the cat. As soon as the observer "looks" inside the box, the dual "dead AND alive" cat state collapse to only one of the two "possibilities". This is described as the "collapse of the wave function" in QM. It is also what is meant by the "creation of reality" by an act of "consciousness". The movie "What the bleep.." talks about "a world where reality is created by every thought".

According to this new set of "beliefs" (remember this is not science), the collapse takes place inside the "brain" of the observer and thus, the observer "creates" and "chooses" the cat to be "dead OR alive".

This is the QM origins of "creation of reality" by an act of "consciousness". And this is what I mean when I say that this concept is an over exaggeration and extrapolation (by 25 order of magnitudes) of the fundamental concepts of QM. It's not science, only "beliefs". And this gives rise to all sorts of speculations, like the "creation of your own cancer" for instance. New Age gurus will instill the beliefs that "you create you're own reality" this way. Some will even claim that by "training" your consciousness (like with TM), you can gain "control" over matter and "choose" whetever reality is best for you. Gurus will claim that you can achieve "higher levels of consciousness" and thus be "rich" and "healthy" or be whaterver you "choose". For example, Deepak Chopra, a promoter of Quantum Healing claims in one of his best selling book that "by an act of consciousness, you can tell your body not to age". So, why is he growing old??? maybe he "chooses" to (LOL)!

If you look at the history of the Physics of Consciousness Research Group (PCRG) that was funded by Werner Erhard in 1975, this is exactly what you will find. Why is this of interests to New Age gurus like Werner Erhard? It's because if you "create your own reality", you are fully responsible (thus blamed) for everything good or bad that happens to your life (being sick, healthy, or swept away by a Tsunami !!!). This way, the guru is always right and you're always wrong (when convenient for the guru).

What this means is that real quantum physics and new age "quantum" philosophies have a miniscule amount of common ground. Real quantum physics is extremely math heavy.... New Age quantum crapola has no math.... [b:754521a7b2] nothing about it can be proved because nothing about it can be disproved...[/b:754521a7b2] it is often used as an excuse for having no decent logic... the reasoning going like [b:754521a7b2] "if things have seemingly illogical behavior at really small scales, that means that there is such a thing as "quantum logic" where the normal rules of clear thinking are suspended" [/b:754521a7b2] ... and if you think thats a load of bullshit, they will tell you that you have a [b:754521a7b2] quantum racket [/b:754521a7b2] which is getting in the way of [b:754521a7b2] "quantumly getting the quantum IT " [/b:754521a7b2] which should never be confused with the old, mechanical, newtonian IT .... and never, never, never with the aristotelian medieval IT, and God forbid, the Platonic IT ... which, horror of horrors, was derived from the Egyptian IT...... and once we've dumped the quantum IT.... well.... on to the string theory IT.... or something...

Thank you, kind of what I was thinking, but I wanted someone else to read this and say what they were thinking about IT. And, since I know next to nothing about physics, I was not willing to make an opinion without thought and input.


:wink: Ok, here goes me, creating my own reality........ ready? MKP does not exist. MKP does not exist. MKP does not exist. MKP did not "recruit my husband and "brainwash" him as MKP does not exist. MKP did not "recruit my husband and "brainwash" him as MKP does not exist. MKP did not "recruit my husband and "brainwash" him as MKP does not exist.

Did it work? ..............

Oh h*ll, what happened? No change? I must have done it wrong.

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Quantum Physics and the Self-Help Industry
Posted by: midonov123 ()
Date: September 14, 2006 01:04AM


:wink: Ok, here goes me, creating my own reality........ ready? MKP does not exist. MKP does not exist. MKP does not exist. MKP did not "recruit my husband and "brainwash" him as MKP does not exist. MKP did not "recruit my husband and "brainwash" him as MKP does not exist. MKP did not "recruit my husband and "brainwash" him as MKP does not exist.

Did it work? ..............

Oh h*ll, what happened? No change? I must have done it wrong.


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Quantum Physics and the Self-Help Industry
Posted by: Jack Oskar Larm ()
Date: September 15, 2006 01:19PM

When the dust settles, humans have a tendency to be shown up as stupid and lazy. I'm interested in spiritual ideas and I'm interested in scientific ideas. Yes, it can get kind of exciting thinking that the two will meet. But this has been a common theme explored since we were able to scratch our names in the sand. I mean, think of those early astronomers gazing up at the night sky, getting excited by their new telescopes. Soon they'd be able to 'really' connect our mortal conditioning with an all-powerful deity. Like I said, we have weaknesses. Call it ego; call it arrogance. I'm just as sick and tired of stupid, lazy people basing their beliefs on little or no understanding. Let's face it - we're a species of know-it-alls. And where do we get that knowledge? The mass media, church, cults, and the overly verbose. Knowledge (or some sense of it), like anything we strive for, comes with a little hard work. But, more importantly, a genuine interest in the subject matter.

Think. It's free. The only cost is your stupidity.

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Quantum Physics and the Self-Help Industry
Posted by: Jack Oskar Larm ()
Date: September 19, 2006 05:53AM

Gee, I can go on. But you know what I'm on about. Sitting around, relaxing with friends (and relatives) ... getting excited by things we don't understand. It used to be about UFOs and Unexplained Phenomena, and books about people channelling all sorts of kooky characters. I guess the kids usurped that one with their subsequent obsessions with the Ninja Turtles and Pokemon. LOL. Anyway, now it's quantum this and quantum that, and for someone like me who has an interest in science and diligently reads the literature (as difficult as it may be), it concerns me that we're not only making ourselves look stupid but also confusing ourselves. I thought it was common sense to only use words that you understood, at least to some degree (more than zero).

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Quantum Physics and the Self-Help Industry
Posted by: nutrino ()
Date: September 20, 2006 03:59PM

There are times when I feel like pulling out my hair...

such as when I read things like this, written by a "master trainer" of NLP.... geeeyaaack... in my own backyard..... :

"NLP and Quantum Physics

Simple and easy to understand introduction to quantum physics and personal change

[b:1d12a64217] We simplify Quantum Physics for you and show you how to use the principles in using your NLP techniques. [/b:1d12a64217] :roll: :roll: :roll:

We show you why the human mind works more like Quantum Physics than Newtonian Physics and how to use that to create change with individuals.

The holographic nature of the universe and why spontaneous healing occurs "

Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

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Quantum Physics and the Self-Help Industry
Posted by: Toni ()
Date: December 09, 2006 12:03AM

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Re: Quantum Physics and the Self-Help Industry
Posted by: ROZZANNE ()
Date: October 11, 2010 10:25AM

This form of pseudo science and psycho babble has emerged in Perth Western Australia.
It is called MJB Seminars.
Find it on Google
Check out the Facebook page "Mitch and Mills"
You can go to their seminars and learn and be educated on how the fundamental laws that govern humanity will solve all your problems and transform your life.
That is if you are not one of those stubborn people who would "rather be right than loved"?
Michael J Behan formally of Ireland now resident in Western Australia can teach you everything you need to know to be able to be successful healthy happy and wise.
Of course it will cost you money$$$$$
"If you dont pay for it then you will not appreciate the value of what you are learning".LOL.
If you disrupt their Information Evening or Graduation Ceremony(that an indoctrinated relative or friend has invited you to attend), by asking probing and impertinent questions about their ideology, they will ask you to leave.
Oh yes! "every bad thing that ever happened to you in your life is ALL YOUR FAULT you caused it to happen".
If somebody raped you or your children "you must see the LOVE in it".
The Universe allowed it to happen to make you into the person you are today.
You should thank the abuser and move on from there.
"You cannot blame anybody else for anything bad that happened to you".
Watch out for those particles and waves, you had better get the right vibrations happening if you want to be successful and happy and healthy.
MJB Seminars is just another name for Large Group Awareness Training and another version of fleecing people of their money by coercing them to attend seminar after seminar chasing the "holy grail" of enlightenment and success because the "guru" says so.

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Re: Quantum Physics and the Self-Help Industry
Posted by: Hope ()
Date: October 15, 2010 07:19AM

Former Dept of Pathology Chief at a NY Hospital wrote this, and I agree:

"It is important to recognize that when physicists like Heisenberg, Wheeler, and Schrödinger explored the fields of uncertainty in quantum systems, they did so from scientific and enlightened philosophic standpoints. They did not do so to provide a license for outlandish conjecture or, in the current context, to peddle cures for diseases. No one can heal another person by “prescribing” quantum spirituality of the uncertainty principles. For deep healing, one can access only one’s own deep healing domains of such spirituality.

To be human is to have doubt and be uncertain. In all healing work, we recognize this and our other handicaps in life, and then muster the courage to defy them. Courage is not the absence of fear, nor freedom from uncertainty. It is the acceptance of both and the determination not to let them impede the purpose of life.

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Re: Quantum Physics and the Self-Help Industry
Posted by: sarina286 ()
Date: June 20, 2011 11:02PM

I did the MJB seminar on Relationships and You. I nearly didn't because of this site and what I read on it. I am glad that I went with my heart and completed it because if I didn't I would have missed out on one of the most amazingly wonderful experiences of my life.

I finally feel at peace with myself and love myself for who I am... something I have never been able to do in my lifetime.

Until you do MJB and stick it out properly.. don't knock it. Mitch and Emilia are wonderful people who have been through hell in their lives too. As for not having qualifications .. I've been to qualified people and they have never been able to help me like Mitch has.

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Re: Quantum Physics and the Self-Help Industry
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: June 21, 2011 01:56AM


Your post reads like an ad for this company and its products.

"Don't knock it, until you've done it and stuck it out until the end"?


You don't have to drive drunk or smoke ciggarettes to know its not a good thing.

Research matters. And anyone considering buying a product, such a s a training seminar, can do a background check before laying out their cash and participating in something that might be potentially unsafe.

Large group awareness training (LGAT) or "mass marathon training" like MJB has a deeply troubled history that should cause anyone concern. LGATs like Landmark Education/EST, Lifespring and Sterling Institute of Relatiionship have been the subject of critical news reports. Personal injury lawsuits have also been filed against LGATs by former participants that claimed they were hurt by the training.

A paper written by a psychologist illustrates some of the inherent problems frequently observed within LGATs.

See []

13 liabilities that can observed within most LGATs or mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:

They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

They lack clearly defined responsibility.

They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.

They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.

The groups were determined to be dangerous when:

Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

Many LGATs seems to rely upon what can be seen as "coercive persuasion".

See []

The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:

The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance

The use of an organized peer group

Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity

The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified

Robert Lifton labeled the extraordinarily high degree of social control characteristic of organizations that operate reform programs as their totalistic quality (Lifton 1961). This concept refers to the mobilization of the entirety of the person's social, and often physical, environment in support of the manipulative effort. Lifton identified eight themes or properties of reform environments that contribute to their totalistic quality:

Control of communication

Emotional and behavioral manipulation

Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology

Obsessive demands for confession

Agreement that the ideology is faultless

Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought

Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine

Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect

The results of LGATs are subjective. That is, people feel they have received benefits, but there has never been a peer reviewed published study in a credible academic journal, which has demonstrated objective scientifically measurable results and/or benefits over a period of years following such training. Objective results might include a lower divorce rate, improved grades in school, increased income, lowered need for professional counseling or prescribed medication for stress and anxiety amongst past participants.

Before just jumping in upon the advice of a friend, family member or co-worker pitching such training, it is important to do the research on LGATs generally and the LGAT specifically being promoted.

There are meaningful and less risky alternatives to LGATs, such as counseling provided by a licensed professional (e.g. marriage and family therapist), continuing education at an accredited college or university, job training, business school or mentoring by a business professional, support groups for particular problems and/or pastoral counseling for those attached to a church.

Most LGATs have little if any meaningful accountability, unlike the aforementioned resouces, which are typically licensed, regulated and/or accredited. In fact many LGATs expect participants to sign some sort of waiver, essentially relinquishing the right to claim a personal injury or have a personal injury trial in court before a jury.

Being expected to sign such a waiver should be a warning flag in my opinion.

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