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In Desparate Need Of Help
Posted by: righttofight ()
Date: July 12, 2003 02:35PM

I really appreciate Corboy and Elena for their participation. Obviously they are educated about this.

The effects are horrific. Elena is right. The ones that go the full program are self selected. My ex was lost to a similar training. She became arrogant. Hypercritical. Rigid. It was painful to experience. She later tried to discredit me through a court action that fell apart. The changeover from someone who was loving and fun to someone who became alienated from emotion was frightening. And I am not saying that word for effect. I layed up at night crying not knowing how to counter her coldness in bed. Her back turned and body rigid after coming home from assisting in a training class. She was obsessed with working for these people for free and "giving someone their life" or "spreading the abundance."

I was so angry towards this group after our breakup. This is still a problem for me.

After much therapy and consultation, I have been told she is gone. She probably had a personality disorder called "borderline" where her boundaries were poor and she needed to believe there would be a quick fix to her problems.

I was not able to handle her disassociative state of mind. At times she would forget where she was or forget facts about us. Her mood could change radically and she was open to exploitation by some sick people around her that wanted to control her. As she was losing her mind, so was I over trying to save her. These people cannot be saved. And yes. There should be a class action suit to bring down these LGATs. Something.

When you encounter the people the run these trainings, you meet Hitler, Pol Pot, or Idi Amin. They are truly despots who believe everyone around them or people they collect money from are there for their own welfare. The owners of these trainings believe the common good is to benefit their bank account. They will stop at nothing to meet that end. If killing were legal, they would do it. Instead of bodies they kill, they take minds. Good luck to you have lost loved ones. My best advice: Take care of yourself. Your loved one is gone.

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In Desparate Need Of Help
Posted by: revclaire ()
Date: August 08, 2003 10:49PM

please read my story about A. Justin Sterling..titled Brillant book/Brillant Man Bogus teaching..all destructive cults are the same and cause the same results..Did you read Steve Hassen's book on cults and his personal experience of how he got out of the Moonies? His website is called [www.] I suggest you read his personal story and find out there is hope. He has been an exit counselor for many years and he lived it.. Only listen to people who lived it and survived and Never give up on your his book and follow the guidelines and please read my story for more details on my loved ones still out there for 5 1/2 years but I know it will happen. I am praying for you and your friend .

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In Desparate Need Of Help
Posted by: Red ()
Date: August 17, 2003 07:05PM

Hello everyone, this is my first time so bear with me....

My brother, BSc, PhD, handfull of post doctorates under his belf is now 'doing' the Forum.

Something flipped from when he finished his degree to doing his PhD and it all seems to revolve around psychology.

He thought it funny to pay ridiculous amounts of ££ to attend both a Jungian and Freudian analists to play one off against the other!

Needless to say, he's in debt and is just about holding down a job (temp contract) and living in .... surroundings not befitting someone of his certificated intelligence.

Anyway, he's been going to a few of the Landmark Forum things in London and sent me a brochure for my birthday (the best pressie he could offer) and it didn't say anything to me about what it did, but I did get the impression that group psychology was part of it. I recycled it.

He's now asking me to join him, just for the one session, and I decided to do some surfing before I commited myself.

Looks like you lot have saved me some petrol money and an evening of 'realising what I was lacking', that's for sure and, lets get this right ... 'I choose not to'.

I'm very likely to pop back here for help in getting him to channel his lacking funds towards his debt and to realise what the Forum is.

I'll be glad of buzz words that I can use with him, I am apparently a 'critic', with a bit of a 'playful side' and I suffer alot with 'transference'. This way, with the propper type of terminology I can relate at his level.


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In Desparate Need Of Help
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 18, 2003 07:11AM

This is only a guess--stop me if I am mistaken:

It sounds as though your brother has been in school much of his life. His intelligence is undeniable--that's obvious.

But when you at last finish your schooling, defend your final dissertation are awarded your Ph.D, and run out of post-doctoral projects, you can find it terrifying to leave the structure and built-in social networks provided by university life. Its a lot like the crisis that hits career military men when they retire and find themselves utterly adrift in civilian life--there's no external structure, no clear ranking system, no one telling them what to do. Many of them panic, get depressed, crawl into a bottle.

I went into a crushing depression when I graduated from university; I was very bright , but socially and emotionally was retarded, and I was used to operating within a pre-existing social structure. Going out into the world and creating my own structure was very hard for me. Am still learning the ropes.

It is possible that your brother may secretly be craving something that gives external structure, and cults, with their authoritarianism can be very attractive. Dont tell him all this--he'd probably go defensive. If, at some point you can help him realize that he's perhaps feeling scared to have left university and just doesnt know what to do next--thats what he should work on with a counselor and job advisor. But he has to discover for himself, at GUT level, that he's out of school and scared. This realization has to be visceral for it to have a meaningful effect on him. Merely paying lip service to it wont help him change.

Key thing is YOu need to safeguard your own sanity and finances--that comes first.

Then 'keep the porch light on' for your brother. Stay in contact and make it clear that while you are not available for recruitment, you love him as a human being and want to see him. Find enjoyable activities you both can do.

Maybe that will get through to him and he'll get fed up with Landmark.

Very, very brilliant people can have a difficult time in life. As children, they may sense that academic brilliance is the quick road to adult approval, so they plunge into schoolwork and develop thier intellects while neglecting social skills. As time passes and one gets more and more 'book smart' and lags behind in 'emotional intelligence' it gets more difficult to deal with ordinary social relationships because these feel so awkward. Its tempting to go with one's strengths and neglect one's weaknesses. You dont know how to ask a girl out, dont know how to snog, so you give up on that, go asexual, live like a monk and strive to master some branch of higher mathematics intead. Gradually one's development becomes disastrously lop-sided.

There is nothing wrong with encouraging children to do well in school, but it is just as important to force them away from thier books and insist that they connect with friends thier own age.

I wish you the best for your brother. He can find healing but must look in the right places to get it. And he needs a therapist who will not be intimidated or distracted by his intellect.

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In Desparate Need Of Help
Posted by: righttofight ()
Date: August 19, 2003 02:11AM

your brother has all of the marking of someone who could fall into this big time.

Broke. Wanting to believe. Having a PhD in psych does not always prep you for what will happen.

They use heavy social psych techniques to brainwash. People who go in broke come out even worse.

The get health quick scheme of these groups do not work. They are purely designed to get your money. $2800 of mine.

Try to get him to read these threads.

Try to educate him about the invisible cults.


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In Desparate Need Of Help
Posted by: revclaire ()
Date: August 19, 2003 02:22AM

thanks for your post and rigorous honesty about being ripped off you are doing a great service to's great to see people who can help others through being scammed. hope more will read and believe the truth.

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In Desparate Need Of Help
Posted by: wolfy ()
Date: September 07, 2003 04:19PM

Perhaps you could enlighten us to why your friend is considering divorcing her partner of 20 years - it's a little hard to offer any kind of constructive help without knowing more about their situation. Plenty of people get divorced without ever having heard of Landmark so it seems a little rough to blame the technology - although I can see how you see it. She goes to Landmark, she changes from being the person you knew and now she's threatening divorce.

If you want scare stories, paranoia, negativity and cynicism this is the place to come. You'll find plenty of people willing to offer a "well-informed" expert opinion without much information to go on. It seems there are some people here who are only too eager to be experts without all the facts of a situation.

I don't know what's going on for your friends - I'm not them, I'm not there. You could be totally right, but also, maybe the guy is a jerk and she's just woken up to the fact. However, maybe she's acting like a jerk and needs pulling into line. There could be any number of scenarios.

The only way we'll be able to be a contribution is if you provide a bit more background information. If you want the kind of advice that goes "Landmark is a cult and your friends needs to be de-programmed" then this is the place to you - although I would hazard it won't endear you to your friend (or anyone else who isn't of a similar mindset).

Perhaps you could get your friend and her husband to tell us what's going on - that's the only way we (as the spectators) will be able to be a contribution.

The standard modus operandi on this site is, when Landmark gets mentioned, the say it's a cult, people are brainwashed, hypnotised and generally run it down.

Even if all that were true (which it isn't) I don't see much in the way of practical advice here, designed to be of any real assistance. Grabbing your friend by the shoulders, shaking them and telling them they've had their brain sucked isn't going to have the effect you desire.

Perhaps telling your friend that you love her, are worried about her and concerned that she's jeapordising her relationship might be more helpful. Asking her what you can do to support her - actually listening to her fears and concerns - might be more useful.

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In Desparate Need Of Help
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: September 07, 2003 08:57PM

Anyone who is considering Landmark courses or dealing with its influence, should research this privately owned for-profit company founded by Werner Erhard and now run by his brother quite carefully.

There are clear and evident reasons why Landmark receives so much negative attention.

Landmark, previously known as EST, has a deeply troubled history of bad press, complaints and repeated lawsuits for personal injury.

See the following sections within the Institute database.


Constant complaints come in to The Ross Institute about Landmark and its programs from families, participants and concerned individuals.

There is no sceintific peer-reviewed and published study, which demonstrates that Landmark has any lasting benefits.

The benefits claimed by Landmark devotees are subjective and/or based upon anecdotal stories and testimonials. They do not represent scientific research.

Companies that have offered Landmark courses to their employees have often come under severe criticism and at times have been sued.

Employees often don't appreciate having a philosophy imposed upon them within a course format through the workplace.

Obviously, each person has his or her own personal philosophy and/or religion, which is a private matter.

Landmark is simply the philosophy of its founder Werner Erhard. And the touted Landmark "technology" is little more than downloading that philosophy (drawn from several sources and not really original) through a mass marathon training program.

And Mass marathon training like Landmark is itself quite controversial.

See []

Such training often includes coercive persuasion techniques.

See []

Based upon its troubled history, constant complaints, lawsuits for personal injuries I would not recommend Landmark to anyone under any circumstances.

Obviously there are much safer less controversial alternatives.

There are college level classes focused upon self-improvement and support groups sponsored through nonprofit community centers, social service agencies, churches etc.

For personal problems and issues, there are licensed mental health professionals that provide counseling one-on-one and/or in group sessions.

Unlike Landmark session leaders these professionals are accountable to State licensing boards, professional associations and typically possess relevant educational credentials and certification.

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In Desparate Need Of Help
Posted by: revclaire ()
Date: September 07, 2003 09:11PM

wolfy is right about the loving support needed at a time like this. he is also right about the part about telling the person they were is all explained in a book by Steve Hassen who had a personal experience of being under mind control with the Moonies. you can read his book and be educated . his website is [] If this marriage was a good marriage and you know that then divorce is never going to be a solution. There are no quick fixes. To abandon and divorce someone because they were taken by mind control or any other power of the darkness is not going to bring peace. Do unto others as you wish them to do unto you. Reverse the situation and ask what would you want? LOVE, SUPPORT, ENCOURAGEMENT AND FORGIVENESS..NO MATTER WHAT..the golden rule is the basis to being a spiritual person and a true pure heart. Everybody makes mistakes and the one who plays self righteous and power plays the hand of divorce is worse than the one who made a mistake and is spiritually blind and I agree with wolfy, we know nothing but you know more. You know if this couple was in love and if it was a true marriage and if it never was well then..let it be. Too many divorces and I don't know if they have children but they are the innocent vicims and the ones who suffer for adults lack of spiritual evolvement and willingness to hang in there. God is the solution and he can help for those who want a true solution. I will pray for this couple and for you to gain the wisdom. Read Steve's book. It will not be overcome by evil but overcome evil by doing good.

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In Desparate Need Of Help
Posted by: wolfy ()
Date: September 07, 2003 11:01PM

As I've said on another thread, that post appears to be your stock in trade answer.

You could almost be a robot.

How many people have ever done the forum?

How many complaints and law suits have there been?

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