Thanks for speaking up funnyguy!

It's funny isn't it? I love my Landmark friends, I didn't meet one person in there who I thought had a sinister intent (except for maybe one). They are on the whole very nice people who just want to improve themselves and help those around them improve themselves.

They've just been conned and they see the relentless business recruiting as a necessary part of their job if they're going to "transform the planet." And any of the bad stuff? They just don't want to hear about it, they just want to go on their merry way, being transformed and reaffirming that the technology works (mostly to themselves, as they're the ones who really need constant reassurance) by getting (mostly) insignificant wins and then touting them, ah sorry, using them to enroll people.

And how pathetic is it that because you woke up, your friends can't even talk to you now? It's like you get this sticker slapped on you and you're gone! You're just "negative", you're "not in the game". It's so much like Scientology it makes me sick sometimes to think I could have been taken in by it. Same concepts, different jargon. You're down-tone, you're this, you're that. All it amounts to is a bunch of labels in the end, and I hate labels.

I have nothing agains people who are doing this work to improve themselves and sometimes I feel like I'm missing something by not participating anymore, but I then I realize what it's really like when I see them feeling like crap because they're in "Breakdown"...it makes me laugh because life works fine whether you in Landmark or not. Sometimes you feel great and sometimes you feel bad. That's Life! I don't need other people to label me when I'm feeling bad or angry. I know I'll get it over it or get through it.

Someday I'll post about my mind control experience with this company I worked with. It will blow you away what happened. It took me about 3 months to deprogram myself from what happened. That's why I don't like large group anything. Too much group mind stuff going on that most people are unconcious to. I Know this because I spent a number of years doing training myself and comedy in clubs and can you tell you it's pretty easy to tap into the group mind if you know what you are doing.

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funnyguy
Someday I'll post about my mind control experience with this company I worked with. It will blow you away what happened. It took me about 3 months to deprogram myself from what happened. That's why I don't like large group anything. Too much group mind stuff going on that most people are unconcious to. I Know this because I spent a number of years doing training myself and comedy in clubs and can you tell you it's pretty easy to tap into the group mind if you know what you are doing.

...Love to hear about it. Also, how you were able to deprogram yourself.

What was the spark, if there was one, that caused you to doubt the thing?



Ellen

Hey Funnyguy

Like Elena, I can't wait to hear how you deprogrammed yourself and about your experiences.

Please don't make us wait too long. It sounds as if what you have to say could hold real value for others.

This kind of stuff is helpful, supportive, and valuable for those of us trying to get a better understanding of what happened.

Within your words may lie the key to helping someone save themselves a lot of pain, or it may be the key for someone to help somebody else save themselves a lot of pain and suffering.

Thanks.

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estie
I gave Myles and Monkeyvomit the benefit of the doubt, and took them at face value, but I gotta admit the thought crossed my mind that a couple of LECies were playing "stump the band." Monkeyvomit just vanished. Myles began by saying he might not have done the Forum if he'd known more, then proceeded to discount everything which was said. You'd think these ~enlightened~ folks would have better things to do with their time. I don't see how being ~inauthentic~ makes the world a better place.

estie

Whoa there. I have been gone for a while, and I come back and see this?

First: I dont know who Myles is, so dont go lumping me in with him.

Second: I made about four posts total, all around wanting to know if my Father could come out of Landmark unscathed, or if there was zero chance of positive growth. Overall the community told me what I needed to know, which is that LEC is dangerous and extremely seductive in it's particular brand of snake oil.

The one and only debate that I entered was in my original thread, where I asked how could this thing be so bad and remain so popular. I WANTED to believe that my Father would come out of it ok, since I was unable to talk him out of going. The responses in that thread were disconcerting, because no one attempted to paint me a rosier picture. I am thankful for that, because it gave me the stamina to continue to approach him on the subject.

I did not post more after that because I didnt have much to say. I have not been to LEC, or any other LGAT. I have zero connection with them, and never have had any connection with them. And my Father has since stopped going to LEC. He says he may go back in the future, but that he doesnt feel the need and is far too busy right now. The point of all this is, I really dont have much to add to this community in the form of informed debate, counseling, or interpretation. You have all been very helpful, but my need for being here is - at the moment - very little.

I do still read the boards from time to time, as I am now very concerned about what is out there. If these LGATs are as popular as I have been led to believe, then chances are I will run into someone else who is a "believer" in the future. I like to know what I am up against, which is why I continue to read about PSI, Mankind, LEC, and others here on the forums.

These boards helped me learn a great deal about LGATs, their methods, and their risks for those involved. If you still wish to question my motives, you are welcome to do so. Just as I am welcome to respond that you are incorrect. :P

Most people will come out of the Erhardian training setting unscathed, or apparantly unscathed... although more than meet the eye may have had a few batty beliefs [b:1dc3bf2cf0] covertly installed [/b:1dc3bf2cf0] which will have unpredictable long term consequences... I've often thought the way we went about prosecuting the ummmm.... undeclared war in Iraq... the President's style, the realtionship with the press corps... the way the general public received and processed this information.... what one can glean of Bush's thought processes (read Ron Suskind's new book, The One Percent Doctrine.... an excellent study of thought process in action, so to speak)... to me show the brushstrokes of the LGAT mentality writ large... Bush seems to have conceived this project fundamentally as a [b:1dc3bf2cf0] struggle of will against will [/b:1dc3bf2cf0] .... and the weirdest fraction of this thinking is highly reminiscent of the est training... that "they"... confronted with superior will, would spontaneously [b:1dc3bf2cf0] "get it" [/b:1dc3bf2cf0] ... then having gotten it, would immediately [b:1dc3bf2cf0] "get off it" [/b:1dc3bf2cf0] and we'd be out of there in a year, maximum, with happy, smiling Iraquis offering us thanks and handfulls of flowers.... now, one should ask.... [b:1dc3bf2cf0] where did this freakish unrealism come from ? What was the ahem.... "source" of the idea that one could "intend" or "declare" and outcome in advance, then get all jazzed up and will the fucker into existence ? [/b:1dc3bf2cf0] .... Bush, you know, was exactly of that age cohort that was soaked in LGAT philosophy, LGAT culture, LGAT worldview.... he came to these (obviously not well examined) beliefs through some path... no doubt about that.

Myles, I've been to a few LGATs - here's what I learned about myself:

Lesson #1) I had serious problems with authority.

The cost of that was having 4 different jobs in 10 years. Given that I write software for a living, it's probably not a big deal, however, my mother (not so much my father) in particular found this situation laughable - and scolded me for not being able to hold down a job. She was employed for 18 years with her employer, before she started her own business in which she is extremely successful today (makes a 6 figures income (in USD) in a country where GDP per capita per year is 4500 USD).

I function quite normally in other ways, never had issue with women, sex, money or learning new things (intelectual development). I graduated with a B.S. in comp. sci. at age 21. I migrated to the USA all by myself as an exchange student at age 16. Got my perm residence within 8 years. Citizenship in 2006. Own a home. My self-esteem and confidence was (are) at a fairly high level, perhaps too high for my own good. I always aspired (and probably still do) toward the ideal in any situation, work or life.

This in and of itself, might not be such a bad thing, no? What's wrong with learning, furthering your intellectual horizons, socializing with others, going out with women, right? Nothing...

It may seem like nothing - but that "nothing" was me, my (elitist) attitude, my belief and my perception of the world. For whatever human, stupid (or pick your favorite adjective here) reason - I not only assumed, due to my own successes in life, especially as an immigrant to the USA, that my worldview was the only one that others should have, but I vehemently asserted it any chance I got. In front of girlfriends (some liked it, some didn't), friends (some liked it, some didn't), employers (none liked it), parents (loved it... for a while, until I think they realized I was fuc*ing up in subtle ways), etc.

Needless to say - assuming that because you developed into something that others who may have been underprivileged, or didn't care to, did not develop into - something which is higher on the socio-economic scale, doesn't make me any more special than all those other folks. Even if I am able to boil the ocean, and they can't - it still doesn't make you any more precious in the eyes of Mother Nature (or your God or favorite deity, if you're religious).

When (or what) does it make me special then? Only when I can create the perception of value in the eye of the beholder, be it a family member, lover or an employer - and value is subjective and individual within all of us. You create value in the only 2 ways known to humans - by _acting_. Human action is key and paramount to everything we know about the human race, and especially - to the subject of economics. There's a book out there called Human Action by Ludwig Von Mises. If you haven't read it - go get it immediately. What you read in there will explain not only LGATs, but mostly all of what you consider to be normal human behavior from an economic perspective. To a lesser extent, the other way by which we create value is by _communicating_ (speech, verbal or written). If you ever underestimated the power of speech - your bridge to the world - then you walked into the right place to learn the power of speech - an LGAT (and I may add, Landmark in this case is particular in how they use speech), and moreover, this forum. You'd be wise to listen to all that is said - here or in the LGATs, if you wish to complete your picture of reality.

Lesson #2) I underestimated the power of talking, speech and communication. I held a (bad) belief that "talk is cheap".

I briefly mentioned this in my previous point, but that is the second thing I learned in the LGATs. The _mastery_ with which the stories in LGATs is delivered, the groupthink that takes over each individual in an LGAT, is, IMHO, unprecedented.

Most LGATs, or most effective indoctrination tools are in effect, cult-like in nature. They have an authoritative structure, a charismatic "funny" leader, rules are somewhat rigit, off-topic discussions are not allowed, etc.

They know more or less all your common beliefs - but repackage them, and deliver them with a punch over a short amount of time (few days typically). They use your past "sins" (whatever you considered to be sin - they will make you think of it, regress you in time, in a sense) to get to know your vulnerabilities. They use humor to disarm you. The least likable aspect is probably that they use those feelings which they helped you harbor in a short time span, to market the crap out of the LGAT to your friends and family. They take you on an emotional rollercoaster ride. They "shake" your beliefs to their foundation. They use the stories of other participants, other people, who most likely came in there with some "problem", to humble you - I mean, hey, what is my problem with authority compared to e.g. an Iraqi child killed by a bomb schrapnel ('collateral damage', right?)? They use your past against you. They use your beliefs against you. They use other people's beliefs against you. Then they embolden you and tell you you are a superhero and you can overcome this. etc etc. Create a new future, right?

How did they do this? How did you "feel" as you read this? Put a word to that feeling. Powerful stuff, isn't it? You notice I did not say who killed the Iraqi child - maybe a crazy suicide bomber - or maybe an American soldier gone apesh*t - I left it up to you to determine it.

But how? Through speech. Through communicaton. Through words. Through innuendos and implications. That's how. But at the CORE level - I HAD to use words, because that's all you understand. I could've used Kanji symbols, but then you'd have clicked elsewhere on your browser, no?

In sum, that is what I _learned_. Was it worth the money? I dont really know. If I could get it for free, sure. But then knowing what I know - asking them to do it for free, is like asking me to write software for your problems for free. That's what these people do - they realized the blueprints of who we are - and believe me, we are finite in all possible senses - and showed you that through communication over a span of few days. Powerful? Well, depends on who you ask. Can it get you "sucked in"? Most definitely. Power corrupts. Knowing what makes others tick, and being able to adapt and use that on cue - is powerful. Can it be used to extort you for cash? Yes. Can it be used to extort you to perform a blowjob on the cult leader? Yes. But the bitch is - you will have consented in all of those instances. The decision would've come from you.

Did it "scare" me? Yeah - what scared me is my own realization of how arrogant I've been all these years, and God knows how many people I"ve alienated with my behavior. It scared me because I realized how much my own parents screwed me up in ways that I considered to be normal and universal. Not so in America. Not so in the workplace. Especially not so if you come from a ex-communist country like me (I wont name it).

So what are these self-realizations worth? I dont know. Perhaps I'd have arrived at them on my own, through life. Or I may never have arrived, because, I LOVE me, and the way I perceive my life and those around me. I was a happy camper before I ever discovered that only through brutal, self-reflection and self-reexamination, can you ever refine your thinking processess to the point where you are able to understand the essence of who we are - belief driven creatures. Whether it is an accepted (in the physical world) belief (water quenches thirst), or a learned belief (education, school, books, culture) - it is that, a belief.

And beliefs find a way into your head through one way and one way only - language.

I'll close with your belief about avoiding your sister - why did you do it? Or more precisely, can you in a single paragraph outline for me the reasons that led you to dodge your sister for 12 years. I can guess some of them, but I won't be so audacious to do so.

BTW, check out another post on this forum subject "Beliefs". Another LGAT user also is "confused" about his belief system, much as I was....

Until, I had, as some would call it - an "epiphany"..... I give partial credit for that to the LGAT. The rest was all me. Before, and after.

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Myles
I was unaware of this site before taking the Landmark Forum in March 2006. I might not have taken it based on some of the posts that are here.

For those of you that are curious, here is what happened with me during the weekend forum in Boston, MA.

I saw that I avoid difficult situations.

For example:
My sister had been sexually abused by our father when we were little. I never knew about it until we were already adults. Once she told me about it, I avoided her for the next 12 years.

I called my sister during the Forum to acknowledge what I had been doing with her. I told her that I no longer invalidate her story and invited her to create a new relationship together. She told me that she had been waiting many years for me to call. I got my sister back.

I'll tell you anything you want to know about what I have experienced so far. I would also like to hear what you have experienced?

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pragmatist
They know more or less all your common beliefs - but repackage them, and deliver them with a punch over a short amount of time (few days typically). They use your past "sins" (whatever you considered to be sin - they will make you think of it, regress you in time, in a sense) to get to know your vulnerabilities. They use humor to disarm you. The least likable aspect is probably that they use those feelings which they helped you harbor in a short time span, to market the crap out of the LGAT to your friends and family. They take you on an emotional rollercoaster ride. They "shake" your beliefs to their foundation.

Very good... Pragmatist... well expressed and thorough, no doubt written with the same dedication that has made you successful in your software business...

I agree with much of what you have said here, although if I may add some nuances to our shared understanding...

First, I think you may underestimate how much resilience, strength, and survival knowledge you have brought to the equation... these too are your beliefs, perhaps stored in hidden files you never have to think consciously about but are there, constantly protecting you and filtering out manipulative suggestion. My former significant other comes from an ex-communist country where the norm is to have bullshit firewalls to the highest industrial standard well established around your perimeter of self identity... not everyone is so fortunate... there are also those who are merely rigid, or lost and hoping for a solution, some with chemical imbalances, easily suggestible who allow everything in, mind viruses and all, some just in need of an identity to atttach themselves to, so what is having your tree shaken so the ripe fruit might fall off if it and give you fresh nourishment, for them might be having their machine so hard hit that internal bolts start falling off and wiring shorts out...

So, second... this always has the greatest attraction for those who love power, especially immediate power of other people... sometimes the most fantastically arrogant have learned to package their arrogance in the justification of the great cause. You would love to read The True Believer by Eric Hofer where he speaks directly to this.

And third... with long practice in the manipulation of other people, always for their own good and in addition to save the planet from itself, the patrerns of control, the rhetoric, the way you skillfully learn to scent problem discussions before they become outside of your control, the way you come to love witnessing the fears and the transferences of love from your audience.... all of this certainly has some beginnings in their childhoods, an extension of the family dynamics... you may discover that you can do great good, you might take a room full of Pragmatists and get them thinking in ways that might make great positive changes in their attitudes... but then, one might also be so lacking in self perspective, so full of uncritical belief in one's job, that one might no longer be able to distinguish worthy ideas from preposterous claptrap... it is written, it is in the book, this is what we do, this is what works... you know this "political stance" they have... ? When, [b:81bae20af0] ever, even once, in any circumstance have you, or do you know of anyone who has sat down with members of the trainer body and reviewed their materials, their thought processes, had any form of eye level give and take, without the topdog-undergdog dynamic, just an eye level, adult feedback session, going over the process for the strengths and weaknesses, the things that are assuredly true and valuable, the things that are jsut so much self indulgent hot air, or only maybe poorly thought through, not properly seen....??? [/b:81bae20af0]

Leaving us with the fourth point... lacking tight feedback loops, that are part and parcel of any good control system, and also lacking any real screening that keeps the psychologically vulnerable out, lacking any solid publication of their sources, their beliefs, how they have evolved and explanations of what has driven their evolution, who they are, who they answer to, all these things they manage to keep locked up and out of sight because of its "proprietary nature" ... makes this sometimes like those Viagra knock offs from undocumented third world factories, you don't know what's in it but it gives you a magnificent erection and sometimes a terrible headache too... the fake Viagra might have highly potent chemicals that are also known to be dangerous, or cannot be combined with other medicines, or foul adulterants, or badly trained chemists who answer to nobody may have blown the manufacturing, but as long as the blue pill hase the right shape and causes intense vasodilation, it makes no difference to some people...

This just in..., an excerpt from Keith Olberman's response to Rumsfeld's speech... now, all good observers of the hidden linkages and correspondences in this world of ours, ask yourself, ask yourself closely and carefully.... how much like this discussion we are having here about LGATs and their larger social impact does Mr. Olberman's article sound ?
Think for yourself, and ask yourself, long and damn hard...[b:6d93750d29] how much does it matter that we consider closely, with great intellectual scrutiny, exactly what these LGAT's may be doing to our colllective minds [/b:6d93750d29], what the full nature of the transformation they have so glibly promised might, in the cold light of reality, actually be ?

"[b:6d93750d29]The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack. [/b:6d93750d29]

Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

Mr. Rumsfeld’s remarkable speech to the American Legion yesterday demands the deep analysis—and the sober contemplation—of every American.

For it did not merely serve to impugn the morality or intelligence -- indeed, the loyalty -- of the majority of Americans who oppose the transient occupants of the highest offices in the land. [b:6d93750d29] Worse, still, it credits those same transient occupants -- our employees -- with a total omniscience [/b:6d93750d29]; a total omniscience which neither common sense, nor this administration’s track record at home or abroad, suggests they deserve.

[b:6d93750d29] Dissent and disagreement with government is the life’s blood of human freedom [/b:6d93750d29]; and not merely because it is the first roadblock against the kind of tyranny the men Mr. Rumsfeld likes to think of as “his” troops still fight, this very evening, in Iraq.

It is also essential. Because just every once in awhile it is right and the power to which it speaks, is wrong.

In a small irony, however, Mr. Rumsfeld’s speechwriter was adroit in invoking the memory of the appeasement of the Nazis. For in their time, there was another government faced with true peril—with a growing evil—powerful and remorseless.

That government, like Mr. Rumsfeld’s, [b:6d93750d29] had a monopoly on all the facts. It, too, had the “secret information.” It alone had the true picture of the threat. It too dismissed and insulted its critics in terms like Mr. Rumsfeld’s -- questioning their intellect and their morality" [/b:6d93750d29]

There has been debate, off and on, amongst Landmark "grads" and old esties about whether or not Donald Rumsfeld is a "grad" himself. Many have commented on the typically Landmarky style to this jerk's delivery, especially after this bit of inane malarky from a few years ago: (Sorry, the link is dead.)


Rumsfeld baffles press with 'unknown unknowns'
[www.abc.net.au]

"There are no knowns," Mr Rumsfeld.

"There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns -
that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know but
there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we
don't know," Mr Rumsfeld said.




Ellen