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nutrino
...until you find out they really couldn't care less what you think... c'mon, get real, listen to their own words, as in [b:3bd4c72f1a] your opinions are meaningless, your life is meaningless !!!! [[/b:3bd4c72f1a] ....

They "care" about your thoughts to the extent that they can use them against you. That they are ~meaningless~ and your life is ~meaningless~ is one way to make you so depressed or more depressed than you were coming in that you'll be eager to sign up for their stupid snake-oil mind cure.


Ellen

I think we got Myles of this thread. If he read all of this, he must be in a state of profound cognitive dissonance. I doubt his Landmark logic is consistent enough to counter our arguments. Unless he considers that opinions are meaningless, but in that case hiw own pro-Landmark opinions are meaningless too ... another meaningless cultish paradox.

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Then, after all of this, the son looked over to the left side of the auditorium and said, "I forgive you dad."

The room went silent as his father and the guy's mother both walked up to the stage and hugged their son.

What in the world?? Sounds like all this was staged. What a joke.

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It was really just like that. The leader was VERY persistent to the point of making me uncomfortable for this guy. In the end he had separated what had happened to him away from what he had made the abuse mean about himself. Absolutely remarkable!

That's all fine and dandy...but that does not mean it is okay to excuse the abuse...abuse is still wrong.

By the way, you can bet if your sister attended the Forum they'd make her the one to blame for being abused by your father. Very sick.

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He suggested that his father "John" is the only person in the whole world that is qualified to be "John". Then the leader agreed that what the father had done was terrible and no one will ever be likely to condone what he had done to his son and wife.

However, since "John" is the only person qualified in the world to be "John". He was being himself... perfectly. That made his father perfect at being his father.

Have you [b:67d1f29dc6] ever [/b:67d1f29dc6] read such a load of horseshit in your entire life ?

Let's perform a little thought experiment:

Assume, instead that Myles had written

"He suggested that his father "John Wayne Gacy" is the only person in the whole world that is qualified to be "John Wayne Gacy". Then the leader agreed that what the father had done was terrible and no one will ever be likely to condone what he had done to his son and wife.

However, since "John Wayne Gacy" is the only person qualified in the world to be "John Wayne Gacy". He was being himself... perfectly, raping and killing teenage boys and burying them under his house in Chicago. That made his father perfect at being both Pogo the Clown, a beloved local figure, and a remorseless serial killer. "


[b:67d1f29dc6] Would you not say that this is utterly deranged, nonesensical, circular, idiot-logic ? [/b:67d1f29dc6]

What the hell does it mean that "you are perfect at being what you are ?"

What does that mean?

Myles, this position is not only untenable, it is fundamentally [b:67d1f29dc6] amoral [/b:67d1f29dc6] , and secondly, fantastically stupid.

"It is no surprise that John Wayne Gacy, Jr. was admired and liked by most who had known him. He was a sharp businessman who had spent his time, when not building up his contracting company, hosting elaborate street parties for friends and neighbors, dressing as a clown and entertaining children at local hospitals and immersing himself in organizations such as the Jaycees, working to make his community a better place to live. People who knew Gacy thought of him as a generous, friendly and hard-working man, devoted to his family and community. However, there was another side to Gacy that few had ever witnessed..."

Hmmmm.

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midonov123
I doubt his Landmark logic is consistent enough to counter our arguments.

It isn't... and that is why [b:6f96040cc2] no Landmark apologist has lasted here for more than a handful of posts [/b:6f96040cc2] ... because when they have to go "off book" and seriously explain what they are talking about, they eventually fall to pieces.

LF's over-simplification of complex issues needs attention. These "experts" in your life promote the "no victims" philosophy asking participants to share negative experiences and then blame the participant for basing all their behavior on that negative experience by feeling sorry for themselves, having no self-esteem, which would then lead to all sorts of relationship problems. Life is not that black and white.

Using the abusive father example, even if the child were to grow up with solid self confidence and self esteem, there is still the issue of the invisible parent - all the bio- and psycho-social factors of not having the interaction that is vital to human development. It is not a breakthrough to have a participant "realize" that all he has made his own problems because he was selfish enough to feel sorry for himself. Human beings are a little bit more complex than that.

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Hope
Human beings are a little bit more complex than that.

Human beings are a lot bit more complex than that. If Landmark Forum commits a mortal sin against the consciousness of the individual, it is this: they engage in "time splitting" of the personality... how ? ... by dividing time into history-story-incomplete (the past which one cannot detach from) into the handled-complete-as of now . But where they go terribly wrong is that "upsets" - their vomit word for trauma, or multiple traumae reduced to this cute diminution of often horrible truths - can be spontaneously, rapidly "transformed" by..... please don't say this.... [b:4975ffd1e0] declaring completion [/b:4975ffd1e0] .(this is one of Fernando Flores most grossly erroneous ideas... that one could "declare" things into or out of existence... has anyone ever questioned Flores' intellectual competence, closely ? No? )

What is actually happening is that experiences that need long time and expert guidance through a process of comprehension, gaining perspective, personality integration, social education, compassionate listening are given none of these... these disgusting phonies have "declared" that none of those slow, tedious, infinitely demanding, personal acts of healing are necessary, no, all we need to do is "declare completion" because, you see, we are perfect at being what we are ( meaning what ? we can't help doing the things we do ? we are all fated to be the creatures we are ?) ...

What then happens is that past traumas, past upsets, past damage doesn't really get addressed in the way in needs to for real healing and real growth to take place. Instead there is kind of a [b:4975ffd1e0] psychic cauterization [/b:4975ffd1e0] where the past stuff is simply broken off and left for dead [b:4975ffd1e0] if [/b:4975ffd1e0] the "completion work" that they prescribe doesnt do the trick. Just calling up family members on your cell phone while in a highly agitated state might, but all to often will not, bring about this desired "completion".... but if their magical recipes for getting complete don't work like they say, [b:4975ffd1e0] you are guilty of running a racket [/b:4975ffd1e0] ... there is no room in their thinking that their own model of humanity may be absurdly incomplete in its own way...

Is that arrogance, dishonesty, lack of true empathy, intellectual poverty ? What ?

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nutrino
Let's perform a little thought experiment:

Assume, instead that Myles had written

"He suggested that his father "John Wayne Gacy" is the only person in the whole world that is qualified to be "John Wayne Gacy". Then the leader agreed that what the father had done was terrible and no one will ever be likely to condone what he had done to his son and wife.

However, since "John Wayne Gacy" is the only person qualified in the world to be "John Wayne Gacy". He was being himself...

I've got another one:

Assume, instead that Myles had written

"He suggested that his father (and Landmark leader) "Darren Roy Mack" is the only person in the whole world that is qualified to be "Darren Roy Mack". Then the leader agreed that what the father had done was terrible and no one will ever be likely to condone what he had done to his son and wife.

However, since "Darren Roy Mack" is the only person qualified in the world to be "Darren Roy Mack". He was being himself... (killing his wife and shooting a judge!!!) That made his father perfect at being his father.


Lets give our Landmark leader friend Darren Roy Mack a big hug and say we love him and that he is perfect the way he is. After all, his wife is responsibe for creating her own murder, isn't she ?!!

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Myles

... The father was obviously a drunk who abused his family...Then, after all of this, the son looked over to the left side of the auditorium and said, "I forgive you dad."...The room went silent as his father and the guy's mother both walked up to the stage and hugged their son.

What I want to know, since the father was in the room, [b:210b0b2c53]where was [u:210b0b2c53]he [/u:210b0b2c53][/b:210b0b2c53]during all this? There's almost always someone who's been the victim of abuse ~handled~ in every Forum, but I don't remember ever seeing an abuser ask for forgiveness and change his ways. Why wasn't the father ~handled~? Why didn't the father apologize for what he'd done to his son?

estie

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estie

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Myles

... The father was obviously a drunk who abused his family...Then, after all of this, the son looked over to the left side of the auditorium and said, "I forgive you dad."...The room went silent as his father and the guy's mother both walked up to the stage and hugged their son.

What I want to know, since the father was in the room, [b:3b490b5578]where was [u:3b490b5578]he [/u:3b490b5578][/b:3b490b5578]during all this? There's almost always someone who's been the victim of abuse ~handled~ in every Forum, but I don't remember ever seeing an abuser ask for forgiveness and change his ways. Why wasn't the father ~handled~? Why didn't the father apologize for what he'd done to his son?

estie

Landmarkologists don't see that half of the story, do they? Landmarkologists see the father's story, and they see the son's story, but they don't see the father-and-son's story. They split it all up and promote a self-awareness that borders sociopathy. Just as Nutrino says: it's all split.