IMPACT Trainings
Posted by:
Rswinters
()
Date: July 14, 2007 08:23AM
This by far is the most clearly stated post about LGAT effects that I have read so far.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Quote
corboy
RSwinters wrote:Quote
I for one have found each and every LGAT topic thread very good information for all LGAT's.
This is important. Because...nearly all human potential groups/LGATs
claim to be unique.
A very important step in recovery takes place when it is possible for a person to see that his or her group experience was [b:b63d109fac]not [/b:b63d109fac]unique and that it can be compared with other groups.
This insight is very difficult to arrive at, because when we've given our hearts to a group and have the awful discovery that we've been seen and used as objects/income generating-units, this feeling of betrayal is painful and shaming. One way to defend against the shame of finding oneself used and betrayed is to cling, to convince oneself that the experience was special, educational, or a great adventure.
Its a come-down to face that one was had, and that the experience is far from unique. But...if you can stand the pain of recognizing this, you then get to find out loads of people have been through it too, which means, you have a community you can reach out to.
It is a liberating eye opener to find that your particular group is not unique because with that mindset, you then become able to study the 'comparative anatomy' of different groups and see that the external plumage ( verbiage, doctrine of groups) has quite a variety of colors but underneath, the skeleton (recruitment process, room set up, lack of informed consent, signing away rights to seek damages if harmed) ..all that remains quite similar underneath the seeming diversity.
A seminary professor who taught a course on the conversion process had a favorite phrase:
"Same hardware, different software"
* Claims to be unique and often, subtle put-downs of all other groups, and also subtle put downs of all other methods for healing or self development
* Recruitment through friendship networks or work relationships--which means the risk of stressing valued relationships if you dont want to participate or have misgivings
*Being given the bum's rush/hardsell
*A tightly scripted social set up disguised as a spontaneous one
*May include a very, very anal retentive room set up with chairs in precise rows. all external stimuli blocked out, chairs re-arranged when
people depart, having to sit closer together than what is considered normal distance for your culture's physical distances between individuals.
*Demanding intimate, private information from subjects without any written contract from the group promising to safeguard confidential information--very different from professional health care providers and psychotherapists who are legally accountable for confidentiality and who arrange for clients and patients to sign paperwork defining and protecting their confidentiality
***LGAT subjects often sign away their rights, as citizens to sue for damages in event of their being harmed by participation in the LGAT event. No medical or therapy patient EVER signs away his or her right to seek damages if harmed by treatment received.
Thus many LGATs use the language and powerful techniques of psychotherapy and accept no responsibility for thier use of such power in event that subjects are harmed.
Professional healers wield their power in a context of accountability and responsibility
LGATs wield their power and refuse to accept accountability for use of that power and for any harm done.
*Subjects are made to feel powerful, but are not given actual preparation or any encouragement in the LGAT to think consciously about power itself or the way it is exercised. For subjects in an LGAT, power is just an induced mood, a rush. The LGAT keeps its own mits on the actual process of exercising power. If subjects dare to examine the process, they are shamed for being negative--when what they are doing is trying to become conscious of the very thing the LGAT does not want them to actually see.
In LGAT's power, for subjects is an induced and addictive mood.
In reality, power is about process, relationships, resources and information--and who has more and who has less. LGATs control this
and dont want subjects to look closely at the process dimension of power--they only want subjects to get lost and dependent on the mood of feeling powerful.
Subjects are made to feel powerful but actual power remains with the LGAT. You are only free to speak up if you validate the LGAT. LGATs speak the language of power but retain it for themselves.
LGATs speak the language of accountability but in practice LGATs dont seem to feel themselves accountable--but they do make sure to make subjects feel accountable--and subtly, for subjects 'accountability' in an LGAT is separated from personal power and agency and accountability in the LGAT is linked to deep feelings of personal shame, and fear of failing in relation to the LGAT.
LGATs speak of caring and compassion but do not in practice demonstrate an ethos of care in relation to their subjects. If you fail or feel messed up by the LGAT, you are made to feel it is your fault. In professional healing, the provider takes this as a signal to question the treatment strategy, perhaps seek more information by ordering additional tests, and brining other providers in for consutation.
*If there is success, the LGAT takes full credit. By contrast, a true professional healer assists clients and patients to identify their role in the process of healing so clients can retain as much personal agency and autonomy during the process and then the same or increased personal agency and autonomy afterwards.
*Confrontati0n, pushing rapidly for intense emotion, instant intimacy, hectic pace, not enough time to sleep little or no opportunity to think, and possibly being shadowed by a minder
*Pushing people to spend more money than they are comfortable with
*Shaming and ridicule for anyone who disagrees or hesitates--which reproduces/re-enacts life in an abusive family--which can cause persons already harmed by prior abuse to re-enact, either as bully/perpetrators or by submitting to the abuse and intenalizing blame. THe presons in an LGAT who re-enact as bully perpetrators end up wanting to become leaders in the organization. The ones who re-enact as recipients of abuse become the people who work themselves to nervous collapse trying to please the organization, the way a desperate child tries to satisfy a miserable parent.
*Not being told how the process works, which means you dont have any way to give informed consent--a very important matter for persons who risk having physical or psychological health destablized by stress, confrontation and lack of sleep.
--------
(Retired Moderator)
IMPACT Trainings
Posted by:
Rswinters
()
Date: July 14, 2007 08:26AM
Quote
SaneAgainQuote
Impact is no different from Klemmer and Asses
LOL!!!!! :lol:
Did I do a typo? If so, I am sorry. I don't like to swear and it was done unintentionally if I did so. It should have been Associates and not *****.
IMPACT Trainings
Posted by:
Rswinters
()
Date: July 14, 2007 08:30AM
Quote
Philips
Formerimpact wrote:Quote
I'm quite certain that many current trainees would call my posts or even the entire thread complete garbage, but what makes you think that any of the regulars on this thread care in the least what a brainwashed and conditioned trainee thinks about what is going on here?
That is my whole point. If you don't care then they won't listen. There is a reason they came here! I don't see Hopeful Soul posting here anymore. Scared away? Indifferent? Who knows. Confused and brainwashed? Most likely. The Impact speech from him/her was painfull evidence that he/she had been fully indoctrinated in Impact 'Theology'.
fatherof3, there are many ex-impact people here, with various degrees of training from Quest only to TIT3. I will answer any questions you have, or you can read through the old posts and see if your questions are answered there. I will do my best to stay neutral and give information only, or my opinion, but not tell you that you are crazy or defective. I am all about open discussion with out the in-your-face approach. Beware, it may get blunt though. Be open to the things that are shared. Impact has a way of making you open...to THEIR way of thinking, and closed to all other possibilities.
I am not sure, but it sure feels your not open to negative feedback in your posts. Just an observation on my part.
I still am interested in hearing your motivation for being on this website as I previously asked.
IMPACT Trainings
Posted by:
skeptic
()
Date: July 14, 2007 09:40AM
I was thinking about why I have no desire to talk to lgat believers and perhaps it stems from my attempts to talk with my sister.
For example, my sister takes the lgat at face value and says that what was taught are philosophies that are ancient and well accepted. She says also that some of the lgat teachings are found in the field of psychology. Etc. As if this legitimizes the lgat. And that's as far as she sees: the overt "teachings"/the facade/the illusion.
She takes it at face value. She has no clue about the covert thought reform, and not for lack of information. which I've given her.
I don't know how to have any kind of discussion with someone like that. What's the point?
skeptic
I just want to SCREAM when I hear the brainwashed talk! (That's about the level of maturity I have with respect to lgats!) It's so maddening to see the effects of lgat programming on people.
For example, my sister takes the lgat at face value and says that what was taught are philosophies that are ancient and well accepted. She says also that some of the lgat teachings are found in the field of psychology. Etc. As if this legitimizes the lgat. And that's as far as she sees: the overt "teachings"/the facade/the illusion.
She takes it at face value. She has no clue about the covert thought reform, and not for lack of information. which I've given her.
I don't know how to have any kind of discussion with someone like that. What's the point?
skeptic
I just want to SCREAM when I hear the brainwashed talk! (That's about the level of maturity I have with respect to lgats!) It's so maddening to see the effects of lgat programming on people.
IMPACT Trainings
Posted by:
exImpact
()
Date: July 14, 2007 11:39AM
Quote
rrmoderator
Philips:
There you go again.
The reason some critics repeat themselves is most often because apologists raise the same defenses over and over again.
fatherof3 is listed as an active member.
BTW--"Philips" you are banned for breaking the rules, by posting under more than one name (aka "Otter").
Thanks for illustrating how Impact devotees repeatedly try to subvert this thread.
This type of attempted subversion of a public message baord seems to demonstrate how fanatical and bizarre Impact apparently makes people.
RsW,
Philips and Otter is the same Impact troll and has been banned by Mr. Ross for yet another violation of the terms of use for this forum.
Also, If you look at every time I have mentioned Klemmer in all of my posts on this site, he is immediately followed by Asses.
fatherof3,
Justin is Hans Berger's creation, as is Pamela, Terry and all of the rest, including Sally and David. I do not believe Hans Berger is sane, and I believe they are all under the spell of a madman that is under a spell of his life experiences and of his own creation. As a former member of that zombie troop, I should know. He went and graduated from Lifespring, decided he could do it better and instilled his own religious and philosophical beliefs into his new Landmark LGAT ripoff. Impact was not an immaculate conception.
As far as the language of increase is concerned, it is semantics. It was brought up a few times when the logic of it was questioned in TIT that the language of increase (simply because when you say "working" and "not working" you are simply plugging in those words for ideas that "right" and "wrong" are equally suited for.) is for the core trainees so that they can start thinking in the way of the light. Actually it is a device used by the LGAT format for the classical conditioning of the trainees so that they can mold you as they see fit. It is an example of, "You cannot change what people think feel or believe. But if you can change their behavior, the rest will follow." I can't remember where I got that quote. Oh well. If you knew the conditioning was working, it wouldn't work now, would it? :wink:
IMPACT Trainings
Posted by:
exImpact
()
Date: July 14, 2007 11:59AM
Quote
fatherof3
I want to apologize to anyone that thought i was judging them...I dont know what to think and would love some feedback.
Thanks,
fatherof3
First, a response to the subject of this quoted post. I thought understanding was the booby prize, so if you believe the Impact jargon, why do you care if you were misunderstood or not?
Judge away. We all do it. Heck, you can't escape it. An opinion about someone you don't know very well is a judgement, and we make them all the time. All you have to do is look at someone you don't know and your mind will do it unbidden. Positive judgment, negative judgment, it is all judgment. Right/Wrong, Working/Not-Working, help/assist. You know what a synonym is, right? Semantics for with to change and control your brain-thoughts this all is. Do or do not. There is no try. Actually, yes, there is. That process that happens between failure and success. All that work you did to eventually reach your goal. That was all trying, whether it ended in success or failure. That is why the english language has a word for it. Try, attempt...lets open up MS word...Try: transitive and intransitive verb to make an effort or an attempt to do or achieve something. There.
I will say it, the sci-fi muppet was WRONG! Yes, every muppet cannot always be as wise as Dr. Teeth. I miss Jim Henson. :(
Also, please don't go looking for feedback here. Just know you have been duped, we are here to support you, and try and get rid of that self-doubt mechanism they conditioned you with called "seeking feedback". It is self-defeating, literally. They condition you with it so that you can defeat yourself so they don't have to do it. It makes their job [b:26daac673c][i:26daac673c]SO[/i:26daac673c][/b:26daac673c] much easier!
IMPACT Trainings
Posted by:
formerimpactgrad
()
Date: July 14, 2007 12:08PM
fatherof3,
Please go back and read the thread. You are bringing up the same tired issues that have been discussed time and again by every new Impact apologist too self-possessed to go back and read the dialogue from the beginning. ExImpact was kind enough to address the so called language of increase yet another time. Personally I can't stomach the thought of taking more time to address the same issues.
On a more positive note, I'm glad that you have chosen not to attend the TIT trainings. You will be far better for it in the long and short terms. The trainings are about repetition and continued reinforcement. Since you are still in Lift-off they have been working on you non-stop for several months. While you may not realize it Impact has taught you to respond to certain types of stimulus with responses that are favorable to them and have led to you putting more money in their pockets (either through your own trainings or by referring others). Like Pavlov's famous dogs, Impact rings a bell and you start to salivate.
I wish you luck in this process and I hope that you can find the answers that you are seeking. Much of what you would probably ask has been addressed several times already. Please take the time to read what all of us have added to this thread. It is currently the only source of information of its kind on the web. While I cannot vouch for everything on here, I do think that the content is genuinely good.
Please go back and read the thread. You are bringing up the same tired issues that have been discussed time and again by every new Impact apologist too self-possessed to go back and read the dialogue from the beginning. ExImpact was kind enough to address the so called language of increase yet another time. Personally I can't stomach the thought of taking more time to address the same issues.
On a more positive note, I'm glad that you have chosen not to attend the TIT trainings. You will be far better for it in the long and short terms. The trainings are about repetition and continued reinforcement. Since you are still in Lift-off they have been working on you non-stop for several months. While you may not realize it Impact has taught you to respond to certain types of stimulus with responses that are favorable to them and have led to you putting more money in their pockets (either through your own trainings or by referring others). Like Pavlov's famous dogs, Impact rings a bell and you start to salivate.
I wish you luck in this process and I hope that you can find the answers that you are seeking. Much of what you would probably ask has been addressed several times already. Please take the time to read what all of us have added to this thread. It is currently the only source of information of its kind on the web. While I cannot vouch for everything on here, I do think that the content is genuinely good.
IMPACT Trainings
Posted by:
Rswinters
()
Date: July 14, 2007 12:44PM
Quote
exImpactQuote
rrmoderator
Philips:
There you go again.
The reason some critics repeat themselves is most often because apologists raise the same defenses over and over again.
fatherof3 is listed as an active member.
BTW--"Philips" you are banned for breaking the rules, by posting under more than one name (aka "Otter").
Thanks for illustrating how Impact devotees repeatedly try to subvert this thread.
This type of attempted subversion of a public message baord seems to demonstrate how fanatical and bizarre Impact apparently makes people.
RsW,
Philips and Otter is the same Impact troll and has been banned by Mr. Ross for yet another violation of the terms of use for this forum.
Well at least this is making me realize the deprogramming that I have been working hard at in me is working.
I smelled the crap in Phillips posts starting at his third post that was made by him.
There definitely is a certian stench the the interactions with such people.
STINK-O. My sniffer is getter keener.
LOL
IMPACT Trainings
Posted by:
army-of-me
()
Date: July 14, 2007 02:12PM
I understand that it must be very difficult to see that people were harmed in something that was so valuable to you. I can understand where you're coming from.Quote
fatherof3
I want to apologize to anyone that thought i was judging them.
I feel this way most of the time, too. :PQuote
fatherof3
I have a hard time putting on paper what is in my mind most of the time.
I'm sure this contributed (along with a number of other things) to you coming out of it relatively unscathed, and I really do hope that you stay unscathed. I wouldn't wish the aftermath of my experience on my worst enemy, (and there are much worse things that have happened to others than me.) What makes it so much worse is I, nor others on this board's experiences were completely unique. If you read up on some of the LGAT's, this is a recurring problem.Quote
fatherof3
I am not affraid of other peoples opinions even if i dont agree with them. That is the same way i took on Impact trainings. I didnt agree with a lot of what they taught but the parts i did agree with were the issues of making one self positive about life.
I was curious what other people thought about Justin. He seemed so sincere while I was there, yet, when I think back it all makes me so ill, I wondered if he's just a good actor. You could be right though, perhaps he really believes it all. While that would make his intentions good, in the end, the product is still harmful.Quote
fatherof3
It is interesting when i went throught Quest i truely feel that Justin is doing what he feels is right.
This is how my friend felt after I told her all that I'm going through. Again, I truly hope that you can keep what truly positive things you got and throw the rest of it out. (No sense throwing the baby out with the bath water) However remember that Impact operates by sacrificing, and if you got anything it was at a great cost. I'm in NO way trying to throw blame out there, however I think that it's OK to acknowledge lessons you've learned from this entire experience and accept Impact's flaws and true intents. We learn things from flawed or bad sources in our lives all of the time. Does this mean we have to reject what we have learned? No, we learn and move on. Does this mean that we should recommend this flawed or bad source to others as a source of learning? That would be irresponsible. It's dangerous to subject ourselves to bad influences, especially if we are fully informed.Quote
fatherof3
I am somwhat struggling though because i felt that the three classes were in my perspective good in the fact that it lets you get rid of some crap that you have stored.
I know that your intentions in enrolling those you love are pure, as it is a sign of love to share things that are good with those around you. That also explains my intentions for posting here on this board. After my experience with Quest, I knew that I didn't want anyone else to ever have to go through what I am dealing with. After I found out I was not unique in my experience I knew it would be irresponsible and uncaring of me to not share. It would help bring me ome peace if I can help prevent this for someone else. That's why this message board is so valuable. It is the only place I have found where free speech is openly allowed regarding Impact. Many of the websites that come up in a google search for Impact Trainings are owned and censured by Impact, creating this false sense of only positive "results".Quote
fatherof3
I have enrolled my mother and motherinlaw but am having second thoughts. I guess what i am struggling with is if they will have the experience that i had or one that is scaring like i have heard some of you mention.
As far as your mother and motherinlaw: My friend and family members who attended before me all know me very well and neither they nor I forsaw what would happen to me. There really wasn't a way to predict, it's like rolling a pair of dice. I hope that you don't take this decision lightly. In my opinion it would be a smart idea to try safer venues for self-improvement for your family members.
I'm glad you've joined the discussion here. Let's all work towards finding and exposing the ultimate truth about Impact.
IMPACT Trainings
Posted by:
exImpact
()
Date: July 14, 2007 02:45PM
Oh, come now RsW! I know you like to avoid cursing, but not even a "LOL" out of you for me calling them "Klemmer and [u:01e0c1430e][i:01e0c1430e]Asses[/i:01e0c1430e][/u:01e0c1430e]" all this time? I've been doing it for [i:01e0c1430e]YOU[/i:01e0c1430e] my friend! :D
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