In AA, or LGATs, or the Haris, for that matter, no one [b:c1227f060c]goes[/b:c1227f060c] looking for approval.
But group approval is one way group members are controlled and made to stay in the group.
The fear of group disapproval also keeps people from speaking up, challenging the group leader, and blabbing group secrets to the outside world.
Just like the "disfunctional" family dynamic; "don't tell anyone how you got the bruises, say you fell off the swingset", and preserving the public image of "the perfect family".
Within the destructive group, it's "don't tell anyone what happened here", and "don't say anything bad about the group".

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RU?ing
With regard to the AA - its the placing of the power to change in a higher being, rather than the individual, that disturbs me. That is not an anti-religious/god statement, it is just I believe that there are alternatives that are perhaps more valid, in approach and results.

True. The more I read about the cultic quality of AA the more I see that it operates toward the cultic side of the continuum.

That also bothers me that you are supposed to surrender your will and turn it over to HP. That is too absolute/B&W for me. There is a place for willpower and personal power, and there's a middle road. The lgat I wasted 6 years with went to extreme the other way: it's all about personal power/omnipotence.

AA is a way to keep adherents down and dependent. They are powerless. And if they leave the program, they will relapse. In AA, ego is badbadbad and in lgats it's all about ego.

Weird, isn't it, with cults?

It seems like it's either "give up your ego" completely, or "you are in charge of your entire universe", IOW, total dedication to ego.
***********************************************

I know that this is slightly off-topic, but I just found it and can't quite figure out what it is.
Is it run by renegade 12-steppers revolting against crass commercialism within the organization of AA?
Is it a farce?

[www.aagso.org]

A truly hilarious website about how AA prosecutes those who try to muscle in on the profits?

www.aagso.org/

Anybody got any ideas?

Symbolic of the cultures you find these in I guess.

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bonnie
Is it run by renegade 12-steppers revolting against crass commercialism within the organization of AA?
Is it a farce?
www.aagso.org/

Just more of the same?:

Quote

This includes the necessity to perform God's will to the best of our understanding and gain deep spiritual experiences in order to become and keep sober.

So you can only recover from alcoholism with the aid of god? Theres no hope for someone like me if I become an alcoholic... I only have me to help me :?

Hah - I've only just noticed that to post this (and any other message) I have to 'submit'.... ooooh the irony on a board such as this!

Let me start by saying I am not a member of AA or any other self-help group.

The difference between AA and LGAT is that AA is Free and won't humiliate members late or not coming to a meeting. I've heard varous stories of poeple who wouldn't commite to the next level of "training" so were escorted out of the first program.

My stance is that if Landmark or any of these LGAT felt that the value of this program was so life changing they'd do it free like AA or AlaNon. When I learn something I think might benefit my friends, I don't charge them a fee to talk with me. Maybe I should?

I'm all for personal growth, but everyone I know who's gone through the Landmark/Forum is less than a stellar example of what they do for you. One girl is a timid little mouse who is terrified of her potential job promotion, the other is an alcoholic who joined AA until she had to face the 4th step. The funny part of it all is that from the I've heard, her Landmark stuff is similar to the 4th Step, so she has essentially paid THOUSANDS of dallars to do what AA would have let her do for free. And with AA she'd ideally no longer be drinking and upsetting her children who've told her they don't like when she drinks. Another woman is deeply depressed after having Landmark dregde up all sorts of "stuff" without any follow up. They tried to sell her the Advanced Course but her finances are such that she can't afford it right now - so she's left to fend for herself; barely able to get out of bed some days.

Another difference between LGAT/Landmark and AA is that AA is very open and transparent about what they do. Everyone I know who's gone to Landmark (thankfully the only LGAT I have to deal with) can't give me a specific, clear and concise explanation of what goes on and what exactly the "techonology" is. I've asked questions, asked for reference material, etc., and no one has anything to share with me. All my questions are again met with their rhetoric. To use one of their phrases, I only get "inauthentic" answers to my specific, valid questions.


--------------
There is a guy being allowed to preach on the AA topic, here on the cult education forum, right now.

AA is IMO an LGAT. It's a program of group therapy run by amateurs, not professionals.


A licensed professional would seem better qualified, educated, accountable and less problematic in dealing with personal issues, such as those identified, explored and examined through an MP weekend.

Why do you think a man should give his valuable time to MP rather than spend that same time more conventionally with a licensed marriage and family therapist or through individual or group therapy with a clinical psychologist?

Doesn't that make more sense time-wise and practically?

Time is valuable, so woldn't it be more proudctive and safe for someone concerned about personal issues to schedule scarce and valuable time with a qualified professional licensed in their rather than a philosophical group like MP?[/quote]

Wouldn't all of this apply to AA as well?

AA is condoned and endorsed by the American court system, the American public, and the cult education forum moderators, apparently.

[b:6896d73863]Why?[/b:6896d73863]

There have been many abuses within this program, experienced by many people, but, despite that fact, it is not considered harmful in the least by the moderators and would seem to be beyond question.

There are other sacred cows. Anti-white hate, I noticed, doesn't deserve recognition or acknowledgement, but that doesn't really bother me all that much.

Anyone notice any other "Sacred Cows" out there in society, or here on the cult forum?[/quote]

I find it ironic that so many do not see the problems with AA/NA/Alanon/Nar-Anon and so on. I am very knowlegeble in cults, I have been reading about them since I was ten (I remember celebrating my tenth birthday while everyone was watching the news which was basically a body count at Jonestown), and I swore I would never get involved in a cult. HA! I went to several 12 step meetings and what did I get?

It sure felt like a cult, sounded like a cult, and I know so many whose lives surrounded around their groups and the 12th step ( Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and [b:92637b018f]to practice these principles in all our affairs[/b:92637b018f].)

here are some basic thoughts I have on the XA groups based on the warning signs here on the site

Italics are either known slogans, or if mentioned, quotes from literature.

[b:92637b018f]Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.[/b:92637b018f]
Can you say "winners" and "sponsors"
[i:92637b018f]when all else fails,the directions are in the big book [/i:92637b018f]


[b:92637b018f]No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.[/b:92637b018f]
[i:92637b018f]take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth[/i:92637b018f]
[i:92637b018f]There are none too dumb for the AA program but many are too smart [/i:92637b018f]
People bragging about Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, if he said it, it was gold.
[i:92637b018f]another friend of bill w.'s[/i:92637b018f]
[i:92637b018f]We have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem[/i:92637b018f]

[b:92637b018f]No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
[/b:92637b018f]
I can't speak for other groups, but the ones I attended did not account for the funds. I hear that the headquarters does, but my local groups did not.

[b:92637b018f]Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. [/b:92637b018f]
The many 12 step groups for family to attend such as Nar-Anon, Al-Anon, Codependency Anon, and ACOA.
According to the Big Book, if you leave your alcoholic husband, you still need the 12 steps.[i:92637b018f]But sometimes you must start life anew. We know women who have done it. If such women adopt a spiritual way of life their road will be smoother.[/i:92637b018f]
Also for wives [i:92637b018f]We urge you to try our program, for nothing will be so helpful to your husband as the radically changed attitude toward him which God will show you how to have. Go along [ to AA meetings ] with you husband if you possibly can.[/i:92637b018f]

[b:92637b018f]There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.[/b:92637b018f]
[i:92637b018f]seven days without an aa meeting makes one WEAK [/i:92637b018f]
[i:92637b018f]If you think the program is too simple, go out and drink some more. By the time you get back you'll be simple enough for the program. [/i:92637b018f]
[i:92637b018f]jails, institutions, or death.
[/i:92637b018f]

[b:92637b018f]Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.[/b:92637b018f]
Stories of 13 stepping, those who are ignored by members of AA if they stop going to meetings, and many more are all over the web. I have heard them personally as well.

[b:92637b018f]There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.[/b:92637b018f]
Some but it is a bit of a sacred cow.

[b:92637b018f]Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
[/b:92637b018f]
[i:92637b018f]Fear is the absences of faith [/i:92637b018f]
From the big book: [i:92637b018f]Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.[/i:92637b018f]
[i:92637b018f]The program never fails anyone; people just fail the program[/i:92637b018f]

[b:92637b018f]The group/leader is always right.
[/b:92637b018f]
FoB= Friend of Bill
Reverence held to all words Bill W spoke.
Revernece held to the first 160+ pages of the Big Book.

[b:92637b018f]The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.[/b:92637b018f]
The way that you are told if you are not working the program you are a "Dry Drunk" is but one example.

dwest:

As the author of the "Warning Signs" you quote I don't think they apply to AA.

I also don't receive complaints about AA from families, professionals and concerned friends.

Only a few unhappy former participants have posted here.

I have spoken with a number of people that were active in AA and they also did not confirm or relate any of the criteria you have attempted to apply to AA.

AA is not organized like the controversial groups discussed at this site.

IMO--the most obvious reason there is not substantial media regarding AA, is that there no substance to report about it being destructive.

There have been charismatic personalities that have taken over AA groups or formed groups based on AA that have become destructive. But this happens with almost everything (e.g. politics, religion, philosophy) and cannot simply be blamed on AA.

Thanks for taking time to reply. I have seen marriages break up over 12 steps because the recovering spouse is too involved in groups. I have seen sponsors recommend they must leave their spouses because they are not involved in the program. (both XA and Al-Anon). Very cult like.

I can see where you are coming from and you wrote the warning signs! I once read a book titled AA Cult or Cure? This book was very anti-AA and even they stated that AA is not a cult... just dang near close.
I happen to side with that author. Without the meglomaniac leader, it will not be one, IMO.

Somethings, like the lovebombing, just set me off as a newbie. Having been informed of cults, my radar went through the sky when that happened. Does not make it a cult, but again, it felt really close to one.

However, there is one thing I will disagree with you about "IMO--the most obvious reason there is not substantial media regarding AA, is that there no substance to report about it being destructive. " The entire "take one drink/drug and go back to day one" attitude is destructive. I had more than one friend overdose after several clean years due to this attitude. Just this last year I lost a social friend over this.


South Park even did an episode on this whole subject. I also had another friend who had a seizure and died in "the rooms" because she followed the principles of the group and stopped taking her medication.

>Only a few unhappy former participants have posted here. <<

That is too bad. For several years I thought I was the only one who felt this way, and then I ended up in google to discover I wasn't. The worst was when I ran into family members of steppers who had been left in the dust because they did not participate in the steps.

Thanks again for the reply and I do believe we are more on the same page than not.

dwest:

On the other side I have spoken with many people that said AA saved their life and marriage, which had become strained due to drinking.

Many marriages have broken up because of drinking and at times AA has helped to avoid that.

Likewise, spouses that I have spoken with have discussed how Al-Anon greatly helped them.