Hello

My name is Kate and I live in Sydney Australia. Just before Xmas my sister did a course called Turning Point. My Internet investigation shows that this is very similiar to Landmark Forum which operates in Sydney as well. Both have "est" as a base and all descriptions of what goes on closely match.

My sister did this couse Sat and Sun 17, 18 Dec. Her husband found her a bit strange on the Monday. At work on Tues 20 Dec she was euphoric and trying to get everyone to do the Turning Point course. Sometime in the late afternoon she slipped into a deep psychosis. She took her clothes off, heard voices etc etc.

Despite work collegues and the ambulance people being there she "flew" out the window (old fashioned building where windows could be opened.

My sister died on 20 Dec at 7pm.

She had no prior history of mental illness or disturbance. She had seen a cousellor about issues such as whether to have a baby. Counsellor says she was not mentally ill.

This does not seem to be the first incident of the type after a Landmark type course.

The State Police and Coroner are investigating and interviewing all the Turning Point people.

I have seen bad outcomes from Landmark before but not this. I knew my sister was doing a course but I did not realise the nature of it.

I simply blame the incidious course for killing my lovely sister.

Does anyone have any comments or advice in relation to my story?

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KateLH
Hello

My name is Kate and I live in Sydney Australia. Just before Xmas my sister did a course called Turning Point. My Internet investigation shows that this is very similiar to Landmark Forum which operates in Sydney as well. Both have "est" as a base and all descriptions of what goes on closely match.

My sister did this couse Sat and Sun 17, 18 Dec. Her husband found her a bit strange on the Monday. At work on Tues 20 Dec she was euphoric and trying to get everyone to do the Turning Point course. Sometime in the late afternoon she slipped into a deep psychosis. She took her clothes off, heard voices etc etc.

Despite work collegues and the ambulance people being there she "flew" out the window (old fashioned building where windows could be opened.

My sister died on 20 Dec at 7pm.

She had no prior history of mental illness or disturbance. She had seen a cousellor about issues such as whether to have a baby. Counsellor says she was not mentally ill.

This does not seem to be the first incident of the type after a Landmark type course.

The State Police and Coroner are investigating and interviewing all the Turning Point people.

I have seen bad outcomes from Landmark before but not this. I knew my sister was doing a course but I did not realise the nature of it.

I simply blame the incidious course for killing my lovely sister.

Does anyone have any comments or advice in relation to my story?

I know a Landmark participant (he was in Landmark for several years and was doing the ILP when he ...) committed suicide about a year ago in Toronto (Ontario, Canada). He developped marital problems and problems at work, and certainly his participation at Landmark had something to do with it (after all, it is supposed to "Transform" every aspects of your life, doesn't it!).

My Landmark ex-friend who knew him personally said Landmark had nothing to do with his suicide and she added (and I quote): "That's his problem!".

That's sort of my experience too. When i went through the EST training and the follow up couses, the six day and others, they were outrageously cavalier about serious problems that participants had. Their model is anything that doesn't fit their worldview is either a racket, a drop out, a withold, all not getting "it" was interpreted as a naegative act of will, people chose not to get it, not to experience enlightenment, to suffer. The weirdest part of their theory is that all suffering is chosen on some level because the sufferer has not taken responsibility for their suffering. There is absolutely no allowance for the idea that some persons are not in full conscious control of their thought processes.

This belief, if internalized, is horribly onerous because it defines every mental operation as a moral choice, if one has a mental breakdown then one must have been "out integrity" and the breakdown was "payback".

The concept of neurotransmitters and agonist-antagonist relationships among neural nets that are chemically mediated is something they just don't compute. Not sufficient serotonin ? You "created" insufficient serotonin, you see, oh yes you did, on some level, you, personally chose not to have adequate serotonin, and if that made your though processes go all wacked out, you have noone to blame but yourself.

In my original EST training, the trainer explicitly stated that our integrity issues would absolutely, positively cause us to die of cancer. Interesting hypnotic fear installation there... not doing things their way, by their rules would put us at risk of dying of cancer.

Then that had this ludicrous, and I do mean ludicrous, piece of the most ass backwards epistemilogic idiocy called The Model Of The Mind where the trainer started drawing wildly all over a blackboard until it was covered with chalk... this was an accurate representation of how the mind worked, got it ? Are there any questions ? No ?

"Everything is connected to everything so there is NOTHING you can do about the thoughts in your head"... can you imagine the consequences of a roomful of people believing this drivel ? How it might effect their life choices, their attitudes toward therapy, towards questioning the validity of this so called "model"

It was just so pathetic, so intellectually bankrupt, and the room sat there and ate it up like it was the wisdom of the ages. Sad, sad, sad.

Kate, I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your sister in such a tragic, unexpected way.

Hi Kate,

I am sorry to hear of your sister's tragic death and you and your family's needless loss.

Being from Sydney too, I am interested in following this one. My search on the name came up with several local organisations from Clothing, Drug rehab, business training and counselling. Can you provide the correct link to this org your sister was involved in?

Oz

Kate, I am very sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how you feel.

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Concerned Oz



Being from Sydney too, I am interested in following this one. My search on the name came up with several local organisations from Clothing, Drug rehab, business training and counselling. Can you provide the correct link to this org your sister was involved in?

Oz

In case Kate can't reply right away, I found this link:
[www.peopleknowhow.com.au]

Sorry about your loss, a real tradgedy it appears. I would strongly suspect that some "mild" tranquilizor was used. I would not put it past some of these groups to spike a drink with something to "help" the potential convert along. A tox screening might show something, but then again it might not.

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nutrino
That's sort of my experience too. When i went through the EST training and the follow up couses, the six day and others, they were outrageously cavalier about serious problems that participants had. Their model is anything that doesn't fit their worldview is either a racket, a drop out, a withold, all not getting "it" was interpreted as a naegative act of will, people chose not to get it, not to experience enlightenment, to suffer. The weirdest part of their theory is that all suffering is chosen on some level because the sufferer has not taken responsibility for their suffering. There is absolutely no allowance for the idea that some persons are not in full conscious control of their thought processes.

This belief, if internalized, is horribly onerous because it defines every mental operation as a moral choice, if one has a mental breakdown then one must have been "out integrity" and the breakdown was "payback".

The concept of neurotransmitters and agonist-antagonist relationships among neural nets that are chemically mediated is something they just don't compute. Not sufficient serotonin ? You "created" insufficient serotonin, you see, oh yes you did, on some level, you, personally chose not to have adequate serotonin, and if that made your though processes go all wacked out, you have noone to blame but yourself.

In my original EST training, the trainer explicitly stated that our integrity issues would absolutely, positively cause us to die of cancer. Interesting hypnotic fear installation there... not doing things their way, by their rules would put us at risk of dying of cancer.

Then that had this ludicrous, and I do mean ludicrous, piece of the most ass backwards epistemilogic idiocy called The Model Of The Mind where the trainer started drawing wildly all over a blackboard until it was covered with chalk... this was an accurate representation of how the mind worked, got it ? Are there any questions ? No ?

"Everything is connected to everything so there is NOTHING you can do about the thoughts in your head"... can you imagine the consequences of a roomful of people believing this drivel ? How it might effect their life choices, their attitudes toward therapy, towards questioning the validity of this so called "model"

It was just so pathetic, so intellectually bankrupt, and the room sat there and ate it up like it was the wisdom of the ages. Sad, sad, sad.

I agree, unfortunately most common pop-psychological explanations of the mind adhere to the [i:8adccbf774] tabula rasa[/i:8adccbf774] hypothesis. That is the mind is made up of a blank slate that is written on over the course of a lifetime. Problem is that few people understand that the human brain is in fact a complex biological machine; which consequently has limitations and imperfections built into it. Simply put: you can't fix a broken machine with another broken machine.

Sorry for the digression, but the story smacks of a drug induced psychosis. People usually don't go from a functional state in life to suicidal by simply attending a few days of a LGAT session.

Thank you all for your responses - they were very helpful.

To concerned Oz - the company running Turning Point is called peopleknowhow.com.au.

There is also a UK company running it called soulpurpose.org.uk which has a history including how Turning Point moved from Oz to UK.

I am still struggling to understand what happened. Even if these courses are useful for some people, at a minimum more upfront and exit screening is required. I also wonder if the friends and family of people who found them good share that view - I doubt it in many cases.

Regards, Kate.

Wright Again:

I have never encountered drug induced psychosis linked to an LGAT.

This type of group can produce psychosis withou drugs and many participatnts have susequently required the care of doctor and in extreme cases some have been hospitalized.

But in such situations that I know of no one was found to have been given drugs during through the LGAT.

The manipulation within an LGAT, its dynamics and methodology can produce psychosis without drugs.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Hi

I was confused re the last post and seems to be a reply to a separate post. No drugs in my sister's case.