Hi skeptic,

Not to go off on a weird "conspiracy" tangent, but there has been ongoing speculation that those in power or with aspirations to power have used and are consantly using cults as a sort of open-air laboratory for purposes of discovering and testing new ways to influence, manipulate, and control people.

Think about it....in the absence of whips and chains, what works better than mental "enslavement," and who is better at enslaving people than those who run cults? Acutally, as has become obvious, mental enslavement is far superior to coercion. Coercion creates resistance and revolt. Those bound by invisible mental/emotional/psychological/intellectual chains are more cooperative, work harder, and don't complain. Every power tripper's dream, eh? A bunch of loyal, eager, industrious, and untiring slaves.

Also, in a free society people are free to make mistakes. And there will always be those who hide inside "freedoms" to practice their nefarious deeds; as the Co$ uses the First Amendment as both weapon and shield.


Ellen

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elena
Hi skeptic,

<snip>

Also, in a free society people are free to make mistakes. And there will always be those who hide inside "freedoms" to practice their nefarious deeds; as the Co$ uses the First Amendment as both weapon and shield.


Ellen

Well done!!

I might add that calls for legislation, while the intent I understand is good, may do more harm than any good. If laws are created against certain forms of speech, those same laws may one day be used against those that initiated them. This is certainly a negative potential consequence for everyone.

Liberty requires vigilance.

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MarkusWelch

I might add that calls for legislation, while the intent I understand is good, may do more harm than any good. If laws are created against certain forms of speech, those same laws may one day be used against those that initiated them. This is certainly a negative potential consequence for everyone.

Liberty requires vigilance.

This gets tricky. Is mind control simply a form of speech? In our "free" society we do have regulations. The rights of one are balanced against the rights of another, and someone is ALWAYS infringed on. I think the consumer's right to be protected from con artists supercedes con artists' right to exploit, deceive and rob. The fact of conning must, of course, first be ascertained.

From what I understand, LGATs are clearly in the business of mind control, and I see this as a serious issue. Are the victims of these scams making honest "mistakes" when they lose years of their lives, their minds, their families, etc? Do they freely make the choice to be scammed? Do they deserve some protection from thieves? There are laws against stealing property. LGATs steal minds and souls.

I think the issue of regulation vs. liberty is incredibly complex. Many, many factors need to be considered and weighed against each other, and reconsidered and reweighed. Your point needs to be included in the process, for sure.

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skeptic

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MarkusWelch

I might add that calls for legislation, while the intent I understand is good, may do more harm than any good. If laws are created against certain forms of speech, those same laws may one day be used against those that initiated them. This is certainly a negative potential consequence for everyone.

Liberty requires vigilance.

This gets tricky. Is mind control simply a form of speech? In our "free" society we do have regulations. The rights of one are balanced against the rights of another, and someone is ALWAYS infringed on. I think the consumer's right to be protected from con artists supercedes con artists' right to exploit, deceive and rob. The fact of conning must, of course, first be ascertained.

From what I understand, LGATs are clearly in the business of mind control, and I see this as a serious issue. Are the victims of these scams making honest "mistakes" when they lose years of their lives, their minds, their families, etc? Do they freely make the choice to be scammed? Do they deserve some protection from thieves? There are laws against stealing property. LGATs steal minds and souls.

I think the issue of regulation vs. liberty is incredibly complex. Many, many factors need to be considered and weighed against each other, and reconsidered and reweighed. Your point needs to be included in the process, for sure.

Hi Skeptic.

Thank you for your comments.

It is a complex issue and it has been discussed and debated previously. The authors of the USC felt that religion was best left out of political matters, and this perhaps was not without consideration of previous affairs regarding both religion and government.

For the record I am an athiest and I despise lgats, etc. Fraud is already illegal, as you know. Are we discussing the differences between what is accepted as fraud and what is accepted as a religion or legitimate business under First Amendment? :)

I am wary of any call for new legislation against lgats and the like, for reasons I mentioned previously.

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MarkusWelch
Hi Skeptic.

Thank you for your comments.

It is a complex issue and it has been discussed and debated previously. The authors of the USC felt that religion was best left out of political matters, and this perhaps was not without consideration of previous affairs regarding both religion and government.

For the record I am an athiest and I despise lgats, etc. Fraud is already illegal, as you know. Are we discussing the differences between what is accepted as fraud and what is accepted as a religion or legitimate business under First Amendment? :)

I am wary of any call for new legislation against lgats and the like, for reasons I mentioned previously.

Thanks for your reply. I missed the previous discussion/debate. I'm new to this whole nightmare. So, maybe lgats (I Iike the small letters :) ) can be regulated with laws already on the books(?). I have lots more to learn, but, on a gut level, something seems terribly, horribly wrong with the whole mess.

What is USC? And, is the previous discussion still accessible? If so, where can I find it?

Thanks, again.

Skeptic

In the next few days, Landmark Education" will hold a one its "Special Evening" events, which is, in fact, a sales event, to which Landmark "graduates" are "invited" to bring their friends. They have sent me three postcards and called me five times over the past few weeks with people in the Landmark Assistance Program trying to get me to attend. Now I will block their number.

I have been out of Landmark for about a year now, and still they chase me. I was in the "Introduction Leaders Program" for about three weeks. This is where they teach you lead the introduction to the Landmark Forum (sell it) and the way they teach you is by having you harass your friends over and over again about coming to introduction events. I watched, with my own eyes as people became little Landmark robots, doing things that rational human beings don't do. the ILP is the gateway to Landmark's other Leadership programs. Going through it for several months can certainly change one's perspective. When I said I was dropping out of the ILP, they pleaded with me to not leave, offering me different deals to stay connected. The more I resisted, the more they bargained with me to stay. Of course, my leader was trying to get enough enrollments to make it to being a Landmark Forum leader.

Do they brainwash you in Landmark Education? Not only do they try to brainwash you, they do it while telling you that you are making up your own mind. And they seem to manage to get you hooked on their "technology" before they teach you any of it.

Truthfully, I can't figure it out. But I am glad that I am not one of them any more.

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Out.Of.Landmark
In the next few days, Landmark Education" will hold a one its "Special Evening" events, which is, in fact, a sales event, to which Landmark "graduates" are "invited" to bring their friends. They have sent me three postcards and called me five times over the past few weeks with people in the Landmark Assistance Program trying to get me to attend. Now I will block their number.

I have been out of Landmark for about a year now, and still they chase me. I was in the "Introduction Leaders Program" for about three weeks. This is where they teach you lead the introduction to the Landmark Forum (sell it) and the way they teach you is by having you harass your friends over and over again about coming to introduction events. I watched, with my own eyes as people became little Landmark robots, doing things that rational human beings don't do. the ILP is the gateway to Landmark's other Leadership programs. Going through it for several months can certainly change one's perspective. When I said I was dropping out of the ILP, they pleaded with me to not leave, offering me different deals to stay connected. The more I resisted, the more they bargained with me to stay. Of course, my leader was trying to get enough enrollments to make it to being a Landmark Forum leader.

Do they brainwash you in Landmark Education? Not only do they try to brainwash you, they do it while telling you that you are making up your own mind. And they seem to manage to get you hooked on their "technology" before they teach you any of it.

Truthfully, I can't figure it out. But I am glad that I am not one of them any more.

Thanks for writing. We'd be interested in hearing more. One thing that always intrigues me is to know what was going on when you first started to doubt the organisation, i.e., what were your first clues that something was not right?


Ellen

This is somewhat embarassing. I registered for the Landmark Forum when I was going through a transtional time in my life. I did not attend an introductory session. I decided that I would simply go and see what happened. I wanted to be openminded.

In the first 15 minutes, they basically dare you to leave and spend lots of time explaining to you that you are there of your own free will, and that they are not brainwashing you. They talk about the enrollment of others from the very beginning. It is like a pyramid that isn't a pyramid.

I doubted Landmark from the get-go, but I talked myself out of the doubt because I feel that I needed what they were offering. I did the Landmark Forum and six months later did the Advanced Course. The Advanced Course is where you are supposed to deal with human relationships. So I did that, and I actually forgot that I didn't trust them.

At that point one of the "leadership" people called me to tell me that I was sort of special, given that I am very well educated and personable. Would I consider doing the Introduction Leaders Program. They told me I was special, I felt special. I had illusions of being a Landmark Forum Leader. (yikes)

When I got to the first meeting of the ILP section I was in, I expected to see a lot of very interesting people around. But the room was filled with all sorts of special people who didn't seem very accomplished or interesting to me. I got it quite quickly that I was just another head of cattle whom they would coerce into bugging all my friends until they came to an Introduction. I knew I was not going to be able to talk myself into doing that. They gave me a coach. The coach wasn't a very good communicator. I wanted to teach him how to coach me!

I went to the first big powwow of the ILP. The room was mobbed with about 200 people who had dressed up to sit in straight back chairs for almost three days. They locked us in and gave us an introduction. The leader was like a QVC salesperson. And they told us some stuff, and that once we accepted the teaching materials of the ILP we were a part of Landmark Leadership. Oh, gag me.

They gave everyone a chance to leave. Then they passed out the secret stuff and I was one of them.

I had driven to the thing with friends, so I stayed the whole weekend. But I never went back.

I am happy to answer any questions that you have.

Skeptic,

I meant the US Constitution and the debates concerning the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, and with emphasis on what made the First Amendment. I recommend findlaw.com for some detailed history and I suggest a reading of some of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine.

Best Regards,

Markus Welch

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In the next few days, Landmark Education" will hold a one its "Special Evening" events, which is, in fact, a sales event, to which Landmark "graduates" are "invited" to bring their friends. They have sent me three postcards and called me five times over the past few weeks with people in the Landmark Assistance Program trying to get me to attend. Now I will block their number

Landmark continually have special events, their latest being the "graduate events. This is the newest draw card to get grads back in the door.

Everything landmark does is a sales event. Every course is a sales event, every conversation.

I have had numerous postcards and eventually wrote a very strongly worded email numerous times and now they promise me no more marketing or calls.. I won't hold my breath