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barabara
What exactly is the connection between MKP and the various 12-step groups?
I keep seeing AA mentioned here, as in a statement that "MKP is 12-step graduate work", (at least, I though I read that on this thread, but it might have been another). I would like to know more.

There is no formal association between MKP and 12-step groups that I know of. I've never seen it advertised and I've never heard about it through talking with people involved in MKP.

As you noted, indivduals (such as sponsors) may recommend MKP at a personal level. I've never seen a formal relationship established or claimed. I've met people that went through NWTA that were there at the recommendation of clergy (I should note that I've been told at least one church has banned such recommendations, due to complaints of "pagan" activity). I've met people who were there at the recommendation of professional therapists. I'm not suggesting that such recommendations were right or wrong, I'm indicating that the recruitment I know about has been done at the individual level.

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rrmoderator
Hey everybody-- this thread is about MKP, not AA or Scientology.

Let's try to focus on the topic.

True enough... however, in my experience it is useful, enlightening, and sometimes breathtakingly revealing when you trace the geneology of ideas...[b:9e41503650] where do these things spring from ? What sources inspied the creators of these couses/events/trainings ??? [/b:9e41503650] ... IF (that's an IF) this work has a heritage in the EST and Lifespring trainings, and that has a heritage in the Scientology and strange language philosophy schools, and that in turn had a heritage in occultism, Crowley, and continental philosophies of the primacy of the will, authenticity, and so forth... then maybe there is a hidden thread that connects, and to some degree explains the choices, and tastes, and thought processes behind all of these things...

OK, but let's not get too far off track.

MKP recruits many of its members from 12 step programs-AA, NA, SA. 12 step sponsors seem to be a great source of recruits for MKP. I personally know 6 people in 12 step programs and they were asked to MKP's NWTA. I personally know 2 people who went to two separate 12 step programs a few months back and both were asked to go to the NWTA.

May not seem like a lot to some of you but these are people I personally know- not people I have just happened across or that I am simply acquainted with. The numbers would be very high if I included all the stories I have heard on the internet and second hand.

RR- I do not want to draw attention away from MKP but wanted to mention that 12 step programs are very significant in MKP recruitment.

cb1000rider said that at least one church has banned priests from recommending MKP to men. I do know of one for sure. The Galveston Houston Archdiocese (Catholic Church) has instructed all priests that have attended the NWTA to no longer participate in the NWTA and to no longer recommend it to anyone.

Thanks for pointing out that recruitment strategy truthsearch.

Question, with MKP recruiting men who are in other "self help, therapy, education" programs, are they not taking a chance that they will recruit men who have too many emotional problems for this weekend to be helpful? Could that be a strategy that could, in the long run, be harmful to these men they recruit? (and their families)

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truthsearch
MKP recruits many of its members from 12 step programs-AA, NA, SA. 12 step sponsors seem to be a great source of recruits for MKP. I personally know 6 people in 12 step programs and they were asked to MKP's NWTA. I personally know 2 people who went to two separate 12 step programs a few months back and both were asked to go to the NWTA.

May not seem like a lot to some of you but these are people I personally know- not people I have just happened across or that I am simply acquainted with. The numbers would be very high if I included all the stories I have heard on the internet and second hand.

RR- I do not want to draw attention away from MKP but wanted to mention that 12 step programs are very significant in MKP recruitment.

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frank_d
Yeah, Girl Scouts was all I could think of at the time of writing. I am only trying to point out that we need to properly define what 'preoccupied' means.

According to the Encarta® World English Dictionary (not that this is the "ultimate" source for defining words), preoccupied means to be "completely absorbed in doing or thinking about something else, sometimes excessively," so if we are talking about being preoccupied with money, no, I don't think that mkp is, as I think that they have other goals that they are concerned with meeting, not just their finanncial goals. And I would certainly say that the Girl Scounts aren't preoccupied with money either. I would say, though, that mkp is more concerned with greater amounts of money than the Girl Scouts.

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As far as I know there is no 'Vice President in charge of getting men to give money'. so, I would argue that they NEED to raise money but it is not the focus or purpose of the organization - that's all.

But are you certain that there isn't a Chief Financial Officer? I'm sure the Girl Scouts organization has one, and I am sure that each chapter of the mkp has someone in charge of the finances of that organization--any well organized group should.

My main concern with the money is that mkp is making money. It is not a non-profit organization as it touts, as there are real profits being made above and beyond the money used to rent the location, buy the granola and apples, and photocopy their manuals. Girl Scout leaders are paid nothing. The rewards of mentoring girls is enough. Nor do the Girl Scout leaders have to pay to staff Girl Scout functions.

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One thing to remember, though, is that most other organizations are more upfront about what they are all about BEFORE initiates pay to become members.

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Yeah, that's one of the more difficult arguments to resolve, at least for me. Here is what I think: On the one hand MKP wants to help men with their weekend warrior thing. On the other hand their weekend warrior thing has in it some aspects that AMERICANS find uncomfortable. Mostly the nudity.

Yes, nudity is a part of it, but I also think that the psychology community would be up in arms about the carpet work, the lack of after care, nutrition and sleep deprivation, etc. I actually think that the nudity is one of the lesser problems--except for those attending the weekends who have been previously sexually abused. I don't think that pressured nudity is a good thing for them, as it retraumatizes them. Even if the man does not feel that he has to take his clothes off, being around others who are taking their clothes off in front of him without his permission can retraumatize a man who has a history of sexual abuse. A lisenced counselor would never do this, and if he/she did, there are repercussions for him/her, whereas mkp has not accountability boards. it's all internally regulated--annd that does not make for an unbiased or ethical system of checks and balances.

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If I were to go to Europe - or to a nudist camp and say the same thing you'd be likely to think it is a good idea.

Perhaps, perhaps not. But if you read RU?ing's posts (he is from the UK), it doesn't appear that he is supportive of the groupthink mentality that leads to the disrobing. The taboo of nudity does vary from culture to culture--you are correct. But again, for me, it is not the nudity per se. It is that their are men who have a history of sexual abuse who are attending these weekends, and whether he is from the US or Europe, uninformed consent for nude activities can lead to severe psychological stress. This is not a way to empower and heal men. Initiates should know up front. Informed consent is empowering. Secrecy is not. And frankly, Frank, the argument that "I wouldn't have gone had I known" isn't a valid or logical excuse/reason for the secrecy.

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I can understand why MKP feels they have to keep it 'low key' so that they can GET us amreican men who have issues with emotions and our bodies to actually GO and take that leap of faith, that risk.

But the risks that some men (as reported on these boards) have had to endure are too high to pay, don't you think? I agree many American men could stand to deal with issues of emotion and bodies, but I think that there are safer therapies with less risk taking.

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Now, in the groups I could see the 'groupthink' attitude but I would ask "if you were a member of any other 'club' (Knights of Columbus, Freemasons) wouldn't THEY have their own 'groupthink? If you started to oppose their ideals and traditions you'd be disliked too.

I'm not sure, as I am unfamiliar with these groups. But it certainly doesn't take place in traditonal therapy groups (such an out-patient licensed, accredited mental health agency) or in other mentoring groups (like the Girl Scounts).

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Yes, the 'respect' level goes down after the 'break up'. Neither side is very tolerant of the other but couldn't that be because the 'ex-mkp' person is usually unhappy with MKP, and the 'pro-mkp' person is not, so they feel like they are opponants? Just a thought.

Could be. But when I dropped out of my sorority b/c I didn't have the finances to stay in, nor did I really subscribe to some of its regulations, I was not shunned. I still had the same friends from the chapter and even lived with one of them my senior year of college. I respected her decision to stay and she respected my decision to leave. My hubby is not getting that same respect from those still in mkp.

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Nobady _makes_ you get 'naked'. The whole 'nakedness is a big deal in all these discussions.

I think that while the nakedness is certainly an issue, but it is not the main issue. It is the groupthink strategies of the mkp that leads to the nakedness of most of the participants. I think that it is the groupthink that is the biggest deal. And the lack of proper nutrition and sleep is what leads to more effective groupthink. Notice, too, that the naked events happen later in the weekend--after no protein intake (which is required for proper brain funtioning and logical decision making). To be honest, this is my main concern: groupthink which is facilitated via lack of proper nutrition and sleep. Although I'm not crazy about the money making either (on the backs on men who are looking for something and hope that this secret weekend can provide it for them).

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The certified / licensed counselors argument is something I think they should do more with AT THE WEEKEND and other times. I think there are going to be some people who are in an emotioanlly fragile time in their lives and the NWTA could be more than they can handle.

Good, I'm glad you agree on this one. Safety is crucial.

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When I went I was under the impression that they do have some kind of staff person there with some real training. I recall talking to a staff person at the dinner who was telling us the kind of costs they incur with insurance, licensing and other fees which included some special staff.

I'm glad that your weekend appeared to be staffed well. The weekend my hubby attended had a "safety coordinator," but this person had no counseling licesure, and thus IMO no professional skills in determining whose emotional or mental safety might be at risk. Plus, even if he did have the proper licesure, one person looking out for 50 initiates is not a very good ration for ennsuring safety. And as for what you were told about the insurance and licensing, mkp is not licensed, so I am confused by this statement. And as for insurance, from what my hubby has been told, it may be for legal insurance, as I know there have been some lawsuits regarding personal harm done to some of the recruits.

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First, I don't think that you can come to the conculsion that his meds were not working, as you don't know what he was taking or whether he was taking them as directed. And as for therapy, if you are not clicking with a therapist, you can tell them that and they are legally required to assist you in finding another if you need one (they don't shun you for your decision). But I do agree that some men are happier in their lives post joining mkp. I'm still not sure that the end justifies the means, expecially for those who are survivors of abuse. There are much more empowering ways of helping people through hard times available to MKP but they choose not to use them.

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Oh come on, you're normally excellent debating skills got lost in the first part of your response.

Thanks for the compliment. I was just trying to say that you were making assumptions about the meds and therapy--that you cannot state these opinions as fact. I don't think that this point negates the rest of your pointt. I am sorry that my organization of my thoughts gave you that opinion. In reality, I was just trying to vary my argument structure sinnce you had commmented earlier about my system for debating. So I thought I would mix it up a bit. ;-)

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That's not a rebuttal to the real question of 'how can we say that someone whose life sucked before MKP is being harmed?". It takes the focus away from the actual question.

I think that this is an individual assessment. I shouldn't really assess someone else's experience. I can only assess my hubby's experience from his sharing with me, and his life didn't suck before, but he thought that he would see if this weekend could bring any benefits to some of the relationships in his life since his family member highly recommended it and he trusted this person. And since being in the group, he has bridged some gaps in these relationships, but he (as a licensed counselor) doesn't feel that the end justifies the means. He knows from experience and research that there are more empowering ways of helping men to heal relationships in their lives. That's all I was trying to say. Sorry if it got muddled.

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I would not have gone. I would have thought they were silly or weird. But afterwards I was glad I went. I didn't like the few times my beliefs or attitude was 'challenged' but in hindsight it was like 'tough love'. Meaning their 'goal' wasn't to beat me up, it was to make me feel and think.

Again, I am glad that you got something out of the weekend, and apparently think that the ends did justify the means for you. But I will say that I don't think that the goal of the weekend is to make you think. If you look back at the excerpts of the guts manual posted on this board, it appears that the goal is to make men feel, NOT think. Further, my hubby said that he was kept too busy to think, and certainly was not provided the proper nutrition to think fully, logically, or completely independently.

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But who has the problem? Me because I find these things (nudity, talking about my feelings with other men, sitting in a sweat lodge) embarrasing? NObody 'coerced' me to go. I went because I was wanting to do something that was 'very different' and the people I spoke to who had gone (whom I respected) said it was, um, way different.

Now your normally effective debating style has been compromised. ;-) First, the mkp does use coercion, from the very start with the excuses (aka lies) for carpooling. To the confidentiality agreement (without informed consent). Coercion can take place without force. Lying and secrecy to get others to do what you want them to do can constitute coercion. Groupthink leads to coercion. And you questioning whether you (or other mkp initiates) have the problem because of an adversion to nudity suggests that it is okay for the mkp to keep the nudity a secret. And for someone who has been sexually abused before, this rhetoric suggests that the victim could be the one with the problem . . . which is a problem.

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If their goal was to BE abusive it would continue the whole weekend. It did not.

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So, are you saying that the 'abusive' weekend ends with the 'honeymoon' and that is ENOUGH to keep someone 'hooked'? I felt the 'honeymoon' feelings after the weekend in the form of an emotional high. I went to the I-Group training for aout 3 weeks and then stopped because it was boring. I guess they didn't abuse me enough. ;)

It is enough to keep some men hooked, primarily those with a history of abuse. It gets them back into a dependent relationship with someone/someone who has the power to control them. Some men do not have the wearwithall and confidence that you seem to have. And again, not all chapters abuse in the ways in which we have read about on these boards, but it does exist in others, and it certainly wasn't the victim's fault that it happened.

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I agree with this 100% and I think they could do this with an independent organization and still keep their 'process' private to the general public. I thought I saw a paper on thisn where they had interviewd a lot of MKP 'weekenders' and got their before and after impressions. SOme university study by a grad student.

Cool. However, when other therapies or drugs are researched to prove their effectiveness, the processes (and ingredients) for creating them must be examined. I don't think that a mkp study could answer my prevailing question of the end justifying the means without studying the processes as well. If the paper you mention is the one that feldspar posted and asked me about earlier this week, then I have read it and have posted my response to it. If you've seen another one, please send it on. I welcome reading a more balanced research project on the mkp. You and me and our need for "balance." ;-)

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As always, a pleasure to debate with you!

And with you, as well. Have a good one.

I guess I do not understand the ??lack of respect?? for these forms of therapy by people. This is not a great example but as close as I can think of. It seems to me, that allowing men or women, who have no real training in these therapies to "play with your mind", would be like going to a "Dr." who has had a weekend workshop to do surgery on you. Would you let someone who is not licensed to "diagnose", "do surgery" etc on you? If not, why would you let someone who is not licensed to "diagnose, "do surgery (emotionally), etc on you? Going and talking to your friends is not the same. The NWTA weekend obviously (per what I have read and per what my husband has told me), has men doing some very intense therapy with each other. I would be afraid to have someone not trained doing these forms of "therapy/education" on me as it seems it could be detrimental to your health.

If I am wrong with this thinking please let me know as I am trying to understand MKP better so I can be more supportive of my husbands needs. He has become much more "himself" and is no longer abusive as he was the first couple months after his NWTA weekend. We have talked much about this and his thinking is that he was going through a form of a "learning curve". In a way this makes since to me but still feel some
?confusion/pain/anger? in regards to his emotional status that first couple of months.

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ginah
Thank you Anidawehi for replying. I kind of thought that was the case but was not for sure and did not know how to put it into words. Now, with education such an issue within this country, I still don't get how MKP can legally "claim" to be educational when they are clearly doing therapy work. Seems like a loophole within the therapy vs educational laws.

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Anidawehi

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ginah
What makes MKP Educational instead of Therapeutic? Are their certain guidlines that has to be followed to be regarded as Therapeutic instead of Educational? Is it just MKP making that judgement? I would be interested in further understanding the distinction between the two. Especially, as for me, when I read their manuals it points me in the direction of MKP being Therapeutic more than Educational.
Thank You

I agree, ginah. It certainly appears that mkp is doing so pretty intense therapy based on Jungian and Gestalt theories. However, in order for the group to claim that they are doing therapy, they must go through a licensing and accreditation process, and they simply do not have the training to do so.

Now, I'm not a therapist, but my hubby is, and this is the issue to the best of my recollection. The mkp leaders themselves would all have to get clinical psychology or social work degrees and take the state licensing test and pass it to become licensed to claim to do therapy. Further, the mkp organization would have to go through the state (and sometimes local) mental health accreditation boards to ensure that they are meeting the minimum requirements for safe and ethical mental health treatment (and that their records are indicating proper diagnosis, treatment, and after-care). Also, psychiatrists must review and sign off on all treatment done by therapists without an independent licensure, which takes at least a graduate degree, about 5 years of supervised treatment, and another test.

Even though some mkp leaders may have mental health backgrounds, they cannot meet the rigors of state licensure and accreditation to legitamize their "treatment." Thus, the mkp could be held legally (thus, criminally) liable for claiming any sort of therapeutic benefit, as they do not have the credentials to be engaging in mental health therapy. Thus, they must label what they are doing as "educational," as anyone with a knowledge of something can educate another on whatever it is they may know (or think they know). However, as an educator with an advanced degree, I find this problematic, as the mkp should also be skilled in proper educational techniques if they truly believe what it is they are teaching and want to do a good job at it (and I mean training done by licensed educators, not just in-house training). And I don't recommend this just for mkp, but any others who plan on educating others. And my first recommendation for mkp is to recognize that a one-size-fits-all LGAT approach is not the most effective way to educate--nor does it promote independent and critical thinking. Any educational model research in the last 30 years will tell them that. So perhaps mkp needs to do more research on effective educational techniques? ;-)

Thanks for your question. mkp's slippery rhetoric here goes unnoticed by many.

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Each "chapter" "area", has a fundraising ?officer. My husband has talked to me about this and was "thinking" of partaking in this as our area was looking for someone to take the position. He has decided against it since we read about the Houston Fundraising tactics which really turned him off.

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But are you certain that there isn't a Chief Financial Officer? I'm sure the Girl Scouts organization has one, and I am sure that each chapter of the mkp has someone in charge of the finances of that organization--any well organized group should.