I was thinking I'd recommend this group as a legitimate alternative for what you've said you'd like and, lo and behold, here's an article about them in today's newspaper. I've never seen anything negative written about them. (I think Werner Erhard may have disengenuously tried to postition himself and his "programs" as something similar at one time.)

Ellen



[www.latimes.com]


For Thousands, Toastmasters International Is More Than Talk
The educational organization, whose goal is improving the speech of its 206,000 members, functions as a self-help group, fans say.
By Nicholas Shields
Times Staff Writer

August 22, 2005

Blushing slightly but otherwise unruffled, engineer Kris Vaughan one recent Thursday afternoon faced his peers and fears.

The Seal Beach Speech Bums member began speaking in a conference room at Boeing's Seal Beach complex shortly after noon in front of about 20 club members. His delivery of "More Quantity, Less Quality Communication" was seamless to the untrained ear.

But not to Mary Romero. As the club's official "ah" counter for the day, she tallied 37 ah's and five um's in the 7-minute, 3-second speech.

"In college, communication is not something that is stressed in engineering," said Vaughan, 24, a UC Irvine graduate. "You realize it's a very important tool to communicate with other people."

Vaughan and the Speech Bums are part of Toastmasters International, an organization dedicated to improving everyday speech, public speaking and self-confidence.

Toastmasters is an 80-year-old educational organization with roots in Orange County. Based in Rancho Santa Margarita, the organization has more than 206,000 members, 40,000 of whom have joined since 1994. Some say its continued success is due to the club's self-help philosophy.

"I do think they could be considered more of a self-help kind of group," said Jeffrey Charles, associate professor at Cal State University San Marcos and an expert on service clubs. "They have the appeal of a service club but they also have the self-development appeal."

Toastmasters has more than 450 clubs in Orange and Los Angeles counties and about 1,200 clubs statewide. Many have names denoting members' interests or professions, such as Talking Tacos Toastmasters, Singles by the Sea Club and the Toastmasters 4 Writers. Some clubs meet weekly, others more frequently.

In February, film composer Alan Derian joined Toastmasters 4 Writers in Glendale after looking for a few months for ways to improve his public speaking.

"As a teenager I was really shy," he said. "You wouldn't know it, but I was. I basically had to learn how to be social with people."

At a recent meeting, Derian proved how far he had come. In a soothing tone, he spoke confidently for seven minutes on how to pitch a screenplay and how to ask a woman out on a date.

He opened with "What I've discovered is that flirting with a woman and approaching someone in the film business is actually very similar."

The audience immediately warmed to him.

Derian said he was enjoying his newfound confidence. "They're enjoying my speeches and laughing even when I'm not trying to be funny," he said.

Traditionally, most one-hour meetings begin with announcements by the club president and the introduction of the day's Toastmaster, who is in charge of the meetings and delegates tasks such as the "ah" counter, speech evaluator and timer.

At least two prepared speeches are given at each meeting.

The assigned evaluator critiques speech organization, voice, language, gestures and persuasion. Awards are given to the day's best speakers.

After his last speech, Derian was named most improved speaker and given the best-speech award.

Toastmasters was founded in 1924 in Santa Ana by Ralph C. Smedley, who believed young men needed better communication skills. He called the group Toastmasters Club because the activities resembled a banquet with toasts and after-dinner speakers. Women were admitted in 1973.

Jon Greiner, the group's president, said he had seen subtle changes in speeches in his 33 years as a member. "Today, everybody wants to be entertained," he said. "Years ago, humor wasn't even a part of the equation."

Toastmasters International considers itself an educational organization and not a service club. Fundraising is against the bylaws, unless used for educational purposes.

Eileen Hayden, who has cerebral palsy and is legally blind, says the group is a great benefit to the disabled. She joined the Orange County Braille Toastmasters Club 11 years ago and is now the club's vice president. "I thought I could help other people and help myself at the same time," she said. "I've met quite a few friends and learned quite a lot."

Susie Gulick, who says she has lupus and three types of arthritis, recently won Toastmaster of the Year for the Founder's District, which covers most of Southern California.

"Nobody even knows I'm in pain," she said, referring to when she gives a speech. "I don't even notice it myself."

Thanks for all the replies. I'm taking them very seriously and am strongly considering just getting a refund. So far Landmark hasn't contacted me at all since I registered (I mailed the tuition over a week ago and still haven't received my "packet") but I'm sure that will change once I tell them I want my money back, right? Oh well, I'm prepared, I guess.

I also had another idea and please feel free to be brutal if this sounds like a bad idea. Supposedly the refund is an option until the end of the first day. I'm thinking about going to that first day (leaving during the dinner break) just to satisfy that part of me that wants to know firsthand what Landmark is like. Also, that way I could tell my friends that I honestly at least tried it. Do you think even that would be more trouble than it's worth, though...and that I should get out now while I still can?

elena, that Toastmasters group does sound like a good thing and probably much better for me than Landmark. The only thing is, I didn't see anything in the article that indicated it met outside of California? I'm in Washington state...

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kickedinthehead

I also had another idea and please feel free to be brutal if this sounds like a bad idea. Supposedly the refund is an option until the end of the first day. I'm thinking about going to that first day (leaving during the dinner break) just to satisfy that part of me that wants to know firsthand what Landmark is like. Also, that way I could tell my friends that I honestly at least tried it. Do you think even that would be more trouble than it's worth, though...and that I should get out now while I still can?
.

Leave as soon as you can. Period.

I attended very recently with the idea that I'd just get up and leave, and get the refund as well. About an hour into the first day they DO give people the option to stand up and leave with your refund. Naturally, it's preceded with a speech in how it takes so much "courage" to "enroll" in "Possiblilty", and "courage" to attend in Landmark. Very crafty.

I'm a pretty strong willed person, but I chickened out, because I had employment considerations and other such BS.
You have none of those. Don't go.

Fortunately, due to reading alot about Landmark on this site I came out untainted (It helped that at every point, I knew what was coming, or what the big pseudo-intellectual punchline was going to be.), and I just marvelled at the "leader's" ability to play many in the audience like a violin.

My observation is that Landmark is a place made for "emotion junkies". Especially the volunteers. What a creepy group they are (It was fun to dick with them as much as possible. :lol:). They're the kind of people you imagine having dozens of hours of Dr. Phil, TVo'd at home.

Kickinthehead - If you are thinking of doing the first day just to satisfy your friends that at least you tried it, you WILL NOT be able to resist the manipulation that will be applied to you to stay once you are in the room. Please check the thread - Manipulating the rooms environment. Also, if you get a lift there, (which is a landmark tactic), you are at the mercy of the other person to get you home - you can't leave if they remain.

On the first day you are heavily indoctrinated that "you are not worthy" to "get it". In LE logic, by walking out, they will use this as evidence against you that you are not worthy. You will sucome to this together with the participant / peer pressure of leaving the group of 100 or so people.

The Forum Leader has all the answers to your doubts. You will be further questioned at the door and down the hallway. They will do everything to make sure that you do not leave and if you are a sensitive person that is concerend about what people think about you, (as you have indirectly suggested in your writings), then, you are a prime target, (or meat as they refer to new recruits), to be totally manipulated and stay.

You can't just give yourself a little heroin...

Oz

I think if you familiarize with the philosophy and psychology behind the forum, then you'll probably escape unscathed .. Who knows, you might even make up with an estranged relative or come out of your shell or benefit in some other way .. My feeling is that if I can sit in a room for 15 hours for 3 straight days, I might as well visit Australia for the weekend..

Attending a seminar is not something to take lightly. Even with foreknowledge of their methods and tactics, if you aren't very confident and you tend to relent to peer pressure, you will have a difficult time leaving. A lot of the forum is also very persuasive. It will all sound very reasonable in the beginning, I assure you.

I think if you go you may well end up wanting to stay.

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Dynamix
Attending a seminar is not something to take lightly. Even with foreknowledge of their methods and tactics, if you aren't very confident and you tend to relent to peer pressure, you will have a difficult time leaving. A lot of the forum is also very persuasive. It will all sound very reasonable in the beginning, I assure you.

I think if you go you may well end up wanting to stay.

......which is what they are counting on. That is, being able to pique your curiousity with one or another of their tactics which they've had thirty some-odd years of practice doing. Doesn't work on some people. Many see right through it. But if you a vulnerable in some way you perhaps haven't admitted to yourself, they may find that access route and grab hold of some desire you harbor in your heart. Many otherwise intelligent people have been fooled. There are lots of excellent books and articles written in the last few decades about cults and cult mind control. May I suggest reading as many of these as you can before hand if you still plan to go? And remember, the seeds of indoctrination are sewn covertly.


Ellen

Logical thinking after entering the forum will be too late because of the subtle cult -group techniques used...uncinsciously breaking you down with room plants, the uncomfortable subtle stress, the chairs ever - so - close, the room temp (controlled by them), no outside window views (so you are forced to look at the (b)leeder, /installing subconsciously of the gropu think, then defensiveness, recruiting of relatives & friends for the strong subtle sell on Tues so-called grad (from what? ) night.

Because they are trancing you, unknowingly your logic side will be chained & locked away to prep room for the lec cd player to be installed to play the "talk" on demand as needed.

You have a right to do what you want & all of these posters (pro & con) would prob. agree with this..but b4 you make any decision, make sure you are fully educated on what it is you are lookin' at. DO you buy the 1st car you look at or gather info to form a baseline to compare to? DO you buy an item online instantly if you haven't held it it your hand in a retail store & asked numerous questions, beforehand? Why would you act different with an entity that is afraid to advertise or muffles people who have filed lawsuits & won?

Just thoughts for food (get it or RU Stuck? HA!)

PAX