Question.

Do you think these people intentions were malicious from the very start or whether they were brainwashed themselves?

It is ultimately impossible to know what someone's intentions are.

The best use of our time and energy is to study this information

[culteducation.com]

compare it with what you've observed of a group or relationship that concerns you and draw your own conclusions.

Quote
howi
Question.

Do you think these people intentions were malicious from the very start or whether they were brainwashed themselves?

By all accounts they were both liars and were both manipulative sociopaths. They both felt superior to others and that they had every entitlement to use, abuse, and exploit people.


Ellen

Howi,

To answer your own question, look at personalities you work wit, run into during the week or casually know...lok for the power hungry, manipulative type and controller - types..the road should be clear after...

PAX

U

It is perfectly obvious from the EARLIEST writings of L Ron that he created the Co$ to [i:709c8badc5]"MAKE MONEY, MAKE MORE MONEY, MAKE OTHERS PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MONEY"[/i:709c8badc5]

Werner no doubt was of a similar nature and saw a good thing...

[img:709c8badc5]http://membres.lycos.fr/xenu/money.jpg[/img:709c8badc5]

[b:709c8badc5]www.scientomogy.info[/color:709c8badc5][/size:709c8badc5][/b:709c8badc5]

I just finished reading a "biography" of Werner Erhard.

I don't know much about L. Ron Hubbard except I have read some of his science fiction books plus a long long time ago when I was probably 15 read Dianetics after seeing a television commercial about it. I've heard some quotes about L. Ron Hubbard indicating he thought making a religion was a great way to make money.

I became interested in the Landmark Forum because four of my "friends" in the past six months have tried to get me to take it. I "almost" signed up for it but got lucky and they got my credit card information wrong and after visiting this site (some friends of mine over at www.upsizethis.org pointed this place out to me) became very wary of the whole thing. Out of the blue I met another Landmarkian a month or so ago and he has been involved in the thing since the whole [i:2cde8815da]est[/i:2cde8815da] days in California. I tried to talk to him about the things I have read on this website. He encouraged me to read the "biography" and that it changed his life. So I figured why not read the book. I couldn't make any sense out of the book other than the parts which described Werner Erhard's life story. Half of the book attempted to describe how the [i:2cde8815da]est[/i:2cde8815da] transformation program works. It was as if it was written in another language because I couldn't figure out what the hell the "biographer" was talking about. It's not English. Lot's of bizzare jargon. In any case, I wasn't "reached" by the book. The guy who lent it to me treats it like a "bible" and has been very uncomfortable without it and wanted it back as soon as humanly possible even though he tells me he hasn't picked it up in ten years.

According to the story, Erhard, after abandoning his immediate family for 12 years (4 children too), comes back, makes peace with them and (this is after he has started with [i:2cde8815da]est[/i:2cde8815da]) convinces all of them to take the course and every one of them undergoes a transformation under his tutelage including his mum and dad, brothers, sisters, etc. From reading the book I got the feeling that he himself was hooked on the authenticity of his methods. Perhaps this was a bias of the book. Any comments?

I presume you read W.W.Bartley's "biography." There are plenty of used copies around that shouldn't cost more than a dollar. The only real market for it was the captive audience of est graduates. No one else thought anything much of it.

Bartley was on Werner Erhard's payroll when he wrote it. Also, he was a scholar and philosopher, another of the "legitimate" professionals Werner hired to make his "programs" seem more "main-stream." He learned, at some point, to distance himself from scientology, though Bartley speaks of it is his book so it is impossible to deny. Most esties and Landmarkers will try to minimize the connection, however.

Authenticity? Yes, I guess if you mean that hypnosis works on some people. Influence tactics work on enough people. Many people are fooled by all sorts of intellectual legerdemain. I suggest you read Cialdini's "Influence." It's not about cults, but many cults use the tactics he writes about.


Ellen

Someone extracted these Hubbard quotes as referenced in "Bare Faced Messiah" and posted them on ARS;

[b:b1e75c43e9]"Whenever he was talking about being hard up he often used to say that he thought the easiest way to make money would be to start a religion."[/b:b1e75c43e9]
Neison Himmel: quoted in "Bare Faced Messiah" p.117 Pasadena, fall 1945.

[b:b1e75c43e9]"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way to do it would be start his own religion."[/b:b1e75c43e9]
-- "Bare Faced Messiah" p.148 spring 1949.

[b:b1e75c43e9]"I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is!"[/b:b1e75c43e9]
Lloyd Arthur Eshbach's autobiography, "Over My Shoulder: Reflections on a Science Fiction Era" pages 125 and 126 (re events of 1948 and 1949):

And of course his bulletin to lieutenants:
[b:b1e75c43e9]"Make sure that lots of bodies move through the shop. Make money. Make more money. Make others produce so as to make money.... However you get them in or why, just do it."[/b:b1e75c43e9]

Seems fairly "clear"! :wink:

my sister, who has taken Landmark, quoted the "true is what is true for you" line made up by Hubbard.

[i:84dd24190c]Werner Erhard -- The Transformation of a Man[/i:84dd24190c], an authorized biography which I bet Erhard had commisioned, quotes him as saying that he admired Hubbard and Scientology.

"I don't know much about L. Ron Hubbard except I have read some of his science fiction books plus a long long time ago when I was probably 15 read Dianetics after seeing a television commercial about it. I've heard some quotes about L. Ron Hubbard indicating he thought making a religion was a great way to make money. "

if u do some research on hubbard u will find that his guru
was alistair crowley. do a search on alistair crowley and u
will one of the more bizarre people on the planet.