Hi to all of you - i'm on a regular pc for a moment! LOL. Umm i have been working on my translation for the web - im actually working on the text pubblished on angelfire and he states (or she) that Arnold Fruchtenbaum is really concerned about MacArthurism. So i google and find that he's preached in a Grace Community recently....
so what is on? i dont want to get wrong facts on the web. any ideas?
i shall be in touch with each one of you who has pmed me asap. at present my mum has serious health problems. but im still around! dont loose faith!

teacher -- The authors of that website on angelfire don't give citations for the quotes they attribute to people. I did a quick look around the web and discovered that Arnold Fruchtenbaum is a messianic dispensationalist with a Masters of Divinity from Dallas Theological Seminary. He's the founder of Ariel Ministries. He recommends a few of MacArthur's books on the ministry website. This, plus the fact that I've spent many years in a MacArthur network church and I have friends who go to GCC, leads me to believe that the angelfire site authors are very inaccurate in their assertion that MacArthur is anti-Semitic.

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Lass o' the Glen
teacher -- The authors of that website on angelfire don't give citations for the quotes they attribute to people. I did a quick look around the web and discovered that Arnold Fruchtenbaum is a messianic dispensationalist with a Masters of Divinity from Dallas Theological Seminary. He's the founder of Ariel Ministries. He recommends a few of MacArthur's books on the ministry website. This, plus the fact that I've spent many years in a MacArthur network church and I have friends who go to GCC, leads me to believe that the angelfire site authors are very inaccurate in their assertion that MacArthur is anti-Semitic.

Actually, I can back this up. John MacArthur may be a lot of things, but antisemitic is not one of them. He has Will Varner (A converted Jew) on staff and as a teacher at the college. Will Varner is a huge proponent of the Jews for Jesus movement and has written many books about how Jewish theology points to Christ. I even had dinner with Varner several times and I know he is very good friends with MacArthur, so any rumors about MacArthur being antisemitic are unfounded.

Also, IBEX (the Jerusalem campus), has many Jews that have converted to Christianity on the staff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 07:12AM by bjw.

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gracetowho?
Hi Mark,

I am using JMs full name in my posts, so that when people google
anything about him our discussions will come up.

As to whether his wife is this or that or his house size or
calling his people goons, I would humbly ask you to
remember we are trying to reach these people who are in
this horrible bondage,
some of them are sweet people, I love them dearly and I think
calling them all goons is not conducive to the discussion.

I am making some bold statements concerning the logical
conclusions of his condemnation theology in hopes that some of
his followers will wake up and get out.

Being the wife of JM must be a horrible job so I am truly sad for her.

He's sold lots of books so he's entitled to whatever mansions in this
world he wants, but it is only in this life, his eternal destiny
my be much more uncomfortably, and I say that in all seriousness
and without malice.

Very Truly yours,

gtw?

gtw? -
Some clarifications: By "goons" I'm not referring to his followers, but to those in his inner circle who serve as his apologists.
The reason I ask about his wife, mansion and lifestyle is because many/most authoritarian leaders like him fit a similar mold. Others have said he has made a LOT of money off selling his books and I don't think that is right, ESPECIALLY if one is preaching/teaching an unbiblical message that places people in bondage. Just because America is the land of opportunity doesn't mean it's o.k. for a pastor to rake in the bucks, especially when pastors in Africa have been nailed to the walls of their church for preaching the Gospel.
I will come off as harsh to some because of the way I say things. Having been in a real cult ( see [www.eth-s.com] for my report ) I know first-hand the depths that legalism/authoritarianism can sink to. And frankly, when it comes to the leaders of cults and the leaders of CULT-LIKE churches I am infuriated by what they do - and I will speak as I want. Believe me, when people wake up to what they've gotten involved in at MacA's enterprise, and then come out, there will come a time when they reach the "volcano stage", i.e. they will be furious at what happened to them AND at what MacA continues to do.
Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 07:49AM by Mark Scheiderer.

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Mark Scheiderer

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gracetowho?
Hi Mark,

I am using JMs full name in my posts, so that when people google
anything about him our discussions will come up.

As to whether his wife is this or that or his house size or
calling his people goons, I would humbly ask you to
remember we are trying to reach these people who are in
this horrible bondage,
some of them are sweet people, I love them dearly and I think
calling them all goons is not conducive to the discussion.

I am making some bold statements concerning the logical
conclusions of his condemnation theology in hopes that some of
his followers will wake up and get out.

Being the wife of JM must be a horrible job so I am truly sad for her.

He's sold lots of books so he's entitled to whatever mansions in this
world he wants, but it is only in this life, his eternal destiny
my be much more uncomfortably, and I say that in all seriousness
and without malice.

Very Truly yours,

gtw?

gtw? -
Some clarifications: By "goons" I'm not referring to his followers, but to those in his inner circle who serve as his apologists.
The reason I ask about his wife, mansion and lifestyle is because many/most authoritarian leaders like him fit a similar mold. Others have said he has made a LOT of money off selling his books and I don't think that is right, ESPECIALLY if one is preaching/teaching an unbiblical message that places people in bondage. Just because America is the land of opportunity doesn't mean it's o.k. for a pastor to rake in the bucks, especially when pastors in Africa have been nailed to the walls of their church for preaching the Gospel.
I will come off as harsh to some because of the way I say things. Having been in a real cult ( see [www.eth-s.com] for my report ) I know first-hand the depths that legalism/authoritarianism can sink to. And frankly, when it comes to the leaders of cults and the leaders of CULT-LIKE churches I am infuriated by what they do - and I will speak as I want. Believe me, when people wake up to what they've gotten involved in at MacA's enterprise, and then come out, there will come a time when they reach the "volcano stage", i.e. they will be furious at what happened to them AND at what MacA continues to do.
Mark

I think the real "goons" are the ones higher up the pyramid. You can take a look at the list that we mentioned earlier that has the requirements for a Lordship believer to be saved, but those at the top of the pyramid have no problem breaking these rules if it means helping the organization or furthering the cause. Note how the third list mentions "protecting and guarding" the "Gospel" (Lordship Salvation). I have had MacArthur supporters get physically violent with me because they were defending their "Gospel." The higher up the pyramid is the more illegal and unethical it gets, definitely resembles "goon" like behavior.

The innocent people that get roped in to the scam, mostly young adults and those that attend churches that have adopted the doctrines, are the ones that aren't the "goons" but are victims that need to be protected from the "goons." I know me personally, I was cheated out of thousands of dollars by these people, and when you multiply that by all the people that have given their life savings to this ministry, you know they have to have taken in a lot of money. The teachers they hire work dirt cheap from what I've heard, and the college charges thousands for tuition, I know it was in the double digits when I was in.

Mark & Bjw

Let's always go to the root of the problem
it's not his wife, it's not his underlings
it's not his house or dogs or museum that's
the problem.
The Problem is John MacArthur's
false gospel and demonic control of people
through means of mental, emotional and
spiritual terrorism.

I think that's succinct enough.

gtw?

So he is not against the Jews having a Church of their own? and he doesn't believe that a new Jerusalem is going to come? I think there is a lot of confusion in this area as well... Now I would like to know who the authors of AngelFire are because I need to get facts translated properly - obviously! I mean the idea is to inform not to slander anyone. I am in contact with a friend who actually met Arnold F. and when he asked him about Mac A. and what he thought about him the answer was pretty vague - that is not good either. I believe that if you are convinced in what you do then you don't go hiding behind bushes or beat around them!
Anyways - my work is going for proof reading. I shall PM.
Anyone tell me what they teach in Sunday School in the Grace Churches? Is the Bible taught? Is Mac A.'s Bible taught? Both? Or maybe books written by him or his followers? I know one church taken over by the sect where the Bible teachings are no longer done through the Bible but through "books".

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gracetowho?
Mark & Bjw

Let's always go to the root of the problem
it's not his wife, it's not his underlings
it's not his house or dogs or museum that's
the problem.
The Problem is John MacArthur's
false gospel and demonic control of people
through means of mental, emotional and
spiritual terrorism.

I think that's succinct enough.

gtw?

gtw? -

It can be argued that the "root of the problem" is MacA's "false gospel and demonic control..." But there's no point in focusing on just one dynamic of "the problem that is John MacArthur".
Hitler said, " How fortunate for leaders that people don't want to think!"
Laziness on the part of (primarily) American Christians is what places them in the position where MacA can bring people under the control of a false gospel. Also, proper discipleship of new believers is virtually non-existant in the American church, which, when combined with America's consumer mentality, and America's love of "experts" (whether it be Oprah, Oz, or Orman, etc.) you get a culture where a "man with all the answers" can become popular.
I've heard Reform-friendly Christian radio talk show hosts somewhat jokingly refer to MacA as "the evangelical Pope." That is an outrage! And it's an acceptance of letting someone else tell you what to think - which is the very thing MacA learned at Bob Jones University. Go to [www.studentsreview.com] and read all the negative reviews of BJU. One thing that is said over and over is that people are expected to just blindly accept whatever is taught. Questioning is verboten! I visited that cursed place when I was a freshman in high school in the fall of 1975, and the one phrase I heard over and over and over again was "Dr. Bob (Jones) says...." This mentality is what MacA's fans have. MacArthurism is cultish, and it must be confronted on every level.
By focusing on others issues - besides MacA himself - such as the mansion, $, etc. , it gets people to see the commonalities that MacArthurism has with other cults. If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck....

Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 12:31AM by Mark Scheiderer.

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teacher
So he is not against the Jews having a Church of their own? and he doesn't believe that a new Jerusalem is going to come?

John MacArthur is not a Reformed theologian, he has plagiarized various views from many different backgrounds. He has some elements of Reformed theology, but he rejects their eschatology. In fact, he teaches that amillenialism and preterism are heresies. He claims to be dispensational but has an element of covenant theology in his doctrine. However, he is a staunch premillenialist and dispensationalist. He believes that the rapture, Great Tribulation, millenial reign, etc. is all still to come with Israel playing a role in the end times. You need to remember there are many elements of many different systems in Lordship theology to make it easier to reel people in to the scam.

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Anyone tell me what they teach in Sunday School in the Grace Churches?

Definitely not grace. Usually they use books with study guides from either MacArthur or various other authors that have jumped on the Lordship bandwagon. He has authors all over the country that come speak at the college, and their books are sold in the cult's bookstores (In Sun Valley and Santa Clarita). Often there is a reading assignment, and a pamphlet-sized study guide comes with the book with questions that are discussed during the class.

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Is the Bible taught? Is Mac A.'s Bible taught? Both? Or maybe books written by him or his followers? I know one church taken over by the sect where the Bible teachings are no longer done through the Bible but through "books".

Good points. The MacArthur study bible was put together by MacArthur and his staff while I was in the cult. The church and campuses were all using NASB at the time, and GCC had just spent big bucks supplying all the pews with NASB Bibles. (It's an allegedly 10,000 member church, and has lush carpets, elevators, the works). For some unknown reason the NASB people refused to allow MacArthur to do his study bible in NASB, so he was forced to do it in NKJV. I haven't been back to the cult since I left so I don't know if they are still using NKJV, but I can imagine the members were probably forced to switch Bibles, and it managed to keep the Ryrie Study Bible (NASB and non-lordship) out of MacArthur's follower's hands.

Even a casual reading of the Study Bible will reveal there is far more commentary than Scripture in the text. In addition, the cult sells an encyclopedia-like reference library written by MacArthur, one for each book of the Bible that fits on your shelf, each one hard-covered. I was forced to buy the one on Romans when I took the course on Romans at Masters.

MacArthur uses a technique called "Expository Preaching" where they take a portion of the Bible (usually out of context) and give a verse by verse commentary of the passage during the sermon, thus doing it verse-by-verse in the order that it appears in the Bible. They brag that this is the only "Biblical" way to preach and it gives the followers the illusion that the cult's teachings are Biblical because they use this technique, thus frowning on "topical" preaching. For instance, let's say we are having a sermon on sanctification, which is treated in Romans 8. We would start the sermon by taking verse one of Romans 8 and going verse-by-verse giving commentary, preaching on it until we are at the end of the passage. That may be an over simplification, but usually that is how MacArthur's sermons are written, and how they train their preachers at the seminary.

Mark --

I read your report and completely understand why you are so passionate about exposing cult-like groups such as GCC/TMC/TMS. I don't have any first hand knowledge of how JM's organizations handle their properties, donations or other funds, but the word on the street among JM fans is that he donates all proceeds from the sale of his books to charity. Whose charity is anyone's guess. I might ask my GCC friends if they get to attend business meetings and receive annual financial reports from the church. If they don't that would be a bit of a red flag.

You said, "Laziness on the part of (primarily) American Christians is what places them in the position where MacA can bring people under the control of a false gospel. Also, proper discipleship of new believers is virtually non-existant in the American church, which, when combined with America's consumer mentality, and America's love of "experts" (whether it be Oprah, Oz, or Orman, etc.) you get a culture where a "man with all the answers" can become popular. I've heard Reform-friendly Christian radio talk show hosts somewhat jokingly refer to MacA as "the evangelical Pope." That is an outrage! And it's an acceptance of letting someone else tell you what to think - which is the very thing MacA learned at Bob Jones University."

This is the thing that absolutely scares me the most: Calvinists appointing themselves as the Protestant Magisterium and JM as the pope. The way that most American Christians lap up everything the RBDs dish out, it won't be too hard for them to pull it off, either. Over the last 10 years I've watched the RBDs coagulate into associations such as The Gospel Coalition and Together for the Gospel. Calvinists have nearly completed their takeover of the SBC thanks to Al Mohler, that dear friend of JM who was just in town for the Shepherds Conference at TMS. Through books, conferences, podcasts, blogs, radio and from their pulpits the RBDs have systematically marginalized and denigrated Christians who do not subscribe to their pet doctrines. In the minds of the RBDs and their followers, if you're not one of them you're not a real Christian. As if it wasn't bad enough that this nonsense has nearly taken over the American church, now they're exporting it with such events as Rezolution (http://www.rezolution.co.za/Home.html) and CrossCon 2013 (http://crosscon.com/).