tpcwocattender:

What do you think TPC is doing wrong and how would you advise correcting it?

Does TPC have democratically elected church government, i.e. a general elections with board members or elders elected to fixed terms by the congregation, which casts votes by secret ballot?

If so, can the elected board fire TPC pastors and/or other staff?

How can a pastor be disciplined and/or dismissed?

What specific provisions for this exist within the TPC constitution?

Does TPC have an annually published budget that discloses in detail any and all compensation paid out from church funds to each staff member, church expenses, total tithes paid in and is it published annually and independently audited?

Who sits on the TPC corporate board, which controls church assets?

To answer the questions of the rrmoderator:

1. They are not being transparent and therefore are causing speculation. This speculation is sometimes based on fact, personal experience or just rumor. That is dangerous. I think the church should be more open and accessible to the congregation.
2. There has only been one reason that I know of since I started attending that called for ratification by the congregation. My assumption is that they do run their church democratically.
3. I don't know the specifics of the bylaws and what they cover.
4. From my questions asked to a member of the elder board the elders have the authority to remove or discipline a staff member or fellow elder.
5. That is being looked into by me.
6. Yes, I have attended two budget meetings. They are held after the second service with the elders and staff on hand to answer any questions. I don't know about the audit. I have not seen payroll broken out in detail.
7. There are three pastors, two staff members, one laymen who has a spouse on staff and one laymen on the elder board, there is no distinction between the elder board and corporate board that I am aware of (it is not made known to the congregation, I have not asked). I am not aware of who has control of assets other than my understanding the assets are controlled by the board. I have been told that the senior pastors wife approves money, could be her.

about TPattender.


I think that we shouldn't read to much into what he/she is saying. If you look back at TPattender's answers to allot of the questions they are more than honest and fair.If you feel that tp attender is attacking you feel free to send a private message to clear things up or ask to talk to them on the phone. - most likely it was a mistake or unintentional.

When I was in the process of leaving tp I asked many questions and brought up many different arguments on this forum and to people i talked to in person. I didn't always believe all the arguments I brought up, but wanted to see how that people here would respond to them. I found this was a great place to ask questions I had and it helped me in the process of deciding to leave.


I have personally contacted this person on the phone and don't believe that they are here to disrupt the forum or attack anyone. They are simply trying to think through these issues.

tpcwocattender:

Based upon your response it appears that TPC pastors have little if any meaningful accountability.

And no tithing member actually knows in any meaningful detail, where all the money goes.

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rrmoderator
tpcwocattender:

Based upon your response it appears that TPC pastors have little if any meaningful accountability.

And no tithing member actually knows in any meaningful detail, where all the money goes.

I have to agree that if there is accountability it is skewed and/or a serious conflict of interest exists. The only comment I would have to your statement about 'meaningful detail' is that I have not asked so it could be available. If someone has asked and found it not available they would be able to speak more directly to this point.

The church has in their bulletin the tithes verses the budget MTD and YTD. They use to have the stewardship campaign money listed but that has been removed. If there is an issue with how the stewardship money was spent then this would be where my request for transparency would be relevant. If the church needed to use the stewardship money to run the daily operations of the church that is when you call a special budget meeting and speak to this issue. Let the congregation in on how the church is doing. Don't hide it.

Thanks NORTHWEST for posting on my behalf - I have PM both LP and Brokenhearted and gave them my name and phone number to try and erase the idea I am on a 'secret mission'. Since I am still on this journey of discovery and most of you are not I would like to stay under the veil of anonymity for the time being.

I would like the opportunity to respond to the moderators questions:

1. What do you think TPC is doing wrong and how would you advise correcting it? An independent audit of the Turning Point Books as well as any seperate accounts related to the Stewardship Campaign and SOMA. Removing all elders and deacons who are on or have a spouse on the payroll. Term limits for elders with all current elders being removed and new elders being elected by the body without any input from Pastor Mike, with an independent committee of responsible members who will not rubber stamp or give in to Pastor Mike to nominate new Elders and Deacons.

2. Does TPC have democratically elected church government, i.e. a general elections with board members or elders elected to fixed terms by the congregation, which casts votes by secret ballot? The answer is no, Pastor Mike has on more than one occasion announced from the pulpit that TPC is an elder led church and they will make decisions. There are no term limits for Pastor Mikes handpicked group of cronies.

If so, can the elected board fire TPC pastors and/or other staff? Under the new form of church government with the new umbrella entity that Pastor Mike is setting up there is no way for elders to rid them self of Pastor Mike even if they wanted to without legal proceedings in court.

How can a pastor be disciplined and/or dismissed? All pastor's except Pastor's Mike and Cindy can be disciplined or dismissed.

What specific provisions for this exist within the TPC constitution? As we speak Pastor Mike is having bylaws rewritten to put all TPC church plants under his new umbrella entity and all will be required to pay 10% of their tithes to Mike.

Does TPC have an annually published budget that discloses in detail any and all compensation paid out from church funds to each staff member, church expenses, total tithes paid in and is it published annually and independently audited? The annual budget is absolutely worthless as money is shifted to fund whatever Mike wants it to fund. Ministries have funds when the budget comes out and as soon as it is ratified funds are stripped from ministries and shifted wherever leadership wants them to go.

Who sits on the TPC corporate board, which controls church assets? Pastor Mike and the TPC Marysville Elders control both Marysville and Skagit Valley. I would assume that the elders here also influence Oregon.

Busy day!

I just wanted to comment on a couple of things.

One, the doubt about people being *sent* here to dispute the things being said. Attender, I happen to believe that you were not sent here, however, it is true that certain people HAVE in fact been told to, by elders. I'm guessing though, that this may just be a select few. I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't ask anyone whose loyalty to the leaders they are not 100% confident of. If you've been asking questions, then your *loyalty* has come into question.

I was going to address the moderators questions, but D of D has done a great job. I would follow up on #2, b/c there may be some confusion. There are times that things are taken to the body for "radification" (not a vote). According to Mike, this gives leaders an idea of how the body feels about a subject, but the general body does not really have any say. For example, when the deacons were ratified, if a majority had said no to anyone of them, then in theory, the elders would go back and pray about it some more, to determine if they are in God's will. It is entirely possible that they would appoint the said deacon anyway, but they may not.

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tpcwocattender
'I don't believe' meaning the elders are united around the position that they are not to look at, post on, talk about this web site because it will give this web site credibility. I have spoken to elders who because they were asked have no idea what is on these threads.

Both TPR and Brokenhearted have stated in one form or fashion that I don't believe something just because it has not happened to me. Or that I have questioned something just because I have not seen it. I think we can all agree that our past experiences effect how we process things. It can be quite dramatic too. I have seen one person flit out over something that someone said and I perceived something completely different and was not offended at all. I have been told that it is hard to be completely objective. PLEASE don't read into this that you are not objective that is not what I am saying. That said, I am trying to be completely objective and it is hard. Not only for me but when I post something it appears that I either don't care, don't believe or am blind to something. That something to someone else is as clear as the nose on your face. I KNOW that there are some things that don't take a world-class detective to see and you don't need to have a PHD to understand what you saw.

I asked if I could 'ask questions and if necessary challenge' people on this new thread in a post I made. That might be something I want to do, challenge your perspective or thinking. Not to tear you down or discredit you. That is not what healthy debate is about. If we can keep emotion out of it as best we can and just talk about stuff you could help me and possibly I could help you.

Thank you

TPC thank you.

I think I would encourage you, again, to take time to read the posts on this site. They will help answer a number of your questions-though not all. I would also encourage you to share your story.What, if any, concerns and questions do you have about TPc? What have you witnessed or experienced that has brought you to the point of investigation. These insights would help. And if you have had only a positive experience then share that as well.

I would also encourage you to ask questions. Be specific in who you address your questions to. Please realize that there have been those who have come to this site simply to flame, to argue, etc. There are those who want to cause dissension among those here and there are others who want to post made up inaccuracies in an effort to discredit those posting here-more so their testimonies and stories. By doing so they can point to those inaccuracies and say, "see-its ALL just a bunch of lies". Surely you understand. I hope this brings light to some of the apprehension.

To my fellow posters here, I would ask that you move ahead with caution. I remember when Northwest first started posting. Northwest came with some of the same questions. As have others-Forgiveness 101 comes to mind. I think we should be wise. If TPCattender is truly seeking truth that will become evident over time. If TPC is here to sow seeds of confusion, that too, will become clear. Lets see what God does through this process. Lets do so with caution.

I guess I have a diferent perspective since I am on the outside of TPC.

I am wondering from those of you still attending the church, why are you going there?What I mean is, why do you chooe tpc to attend over any other church? What makes it so diferent for you?

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TurningPointReject

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tpcwocattender
'I don't believe' meaning the elders are united around the position that they are not to look at, post on, talk about this web site because it will give this web site credibility. I have spoken to elders who because they were asked have no idea what is on these threads.

Both TPR and Brokenhearted have stated in one form or fashion that I don't believe something just because it has not happened to me. Or that I have questioned something just because I have not seen it. I think we can all agree that our past experiences effect how we process things. It can be quite dramatic too. I have seen one person flit out over something that someone said and I perceived something completely different and was not offended at all. I have been told that it is hard to be completely objective. PLEASE don't read into this that you are not objective that is not what I am saying. That said, I am trying to be completely objective and it is hard. Not only for me but when I post something it appears that I either don't care, don't believe or am blind to something. That something to someone else is as clear as the nose on your face. I KNOW that there are some things that don't take a world-class detective to see and you don't need to have a PHD to understand what you saw.

I asked if I could 'ask questions and if necessary challenge' people on this new thread in a post I made. That might be something I want to do, challenge your perspective or thinking. Not to tear you down or discredit you. That is not what healthy debate is about. If we can keep emotion out of it as best we can and just talk about stuff you could help me and possibly I could help you.

Thank you

TPC thank you.

I think I would encourage you, again, to take time to read the posts on this site. They will help answer a number of your questions-though not all. I would also encourage you to share your story.What, if any, concerns and questions do you have about TPc? What have you witnessed or experienced that has brought you to the point of investigation. These insights would help. And if you have had only a positive experience then share that as well.

I would also encourage you to ask questions. Be specific in who you address your questions to. Please realize that there have been those who have come to this site simply to flame, to argue, etc. There are those who want to cause dissension among those here and there are others who want to post made up inaccuracies in an effort to discredit those posting here-more so their testimonies and stories. By doing so they can point to those inaccuracies and say, "see-its ALL just a bunch of lies". Surely you understand. I hope this brings light to some of the apprehension.

To my fellow posters here, I would ask that you move ahead with caution. I remember when Northwest first started posting. Northwest came with some of the same questions. As have others-Forgiveness 101 comes to mind. I think we should be wise. If TPCattender is truly seeking truth that will become evident over time. If TPC is here to sow seeds of confusion, that too, will become clear. Lets see what God does through this process. Lets do so with caution.

That is true, I have not shared my experience and why I am here. That would have been a good place to start. Better late than never. This post should really go on the other thread. I will answer it there.

I didn't know about those who were trying infiltrate the site with less than honorable purposes, NW shed some light on that for me. I can see how my approach was one that could be interpreted as a 'wolf in sheep’s clothing'.