Can an outside troubled church consultant really help TPC? Why or why not? Thoughts from others on this topic. Does anyone really think that Pastors Mike and Cindy will agree to a realistic salary and compensation package? I did some research, rule of thumb is that a (senior) pastor should be paid the average living salary of the area they work in. For Marysville that would be between $62,000 and $70,000 a year. Does anyone think Pastor Mike is going to accept a 70% pay cut given his recent behavior? What are the thoughts of others on this forum on what it would take to put TPC back on solid ground?

Daughter of Dorcas

I believe Pastor Mike needs a lower salary and SOMA should be free of charge! Pastor Mike needs to renounce Tony Cunningham and give up all the false teaching(covering of the apostle, double honoring, spiritual parenting, shepherding movement(discipleship),New Apostolic Refromation, Word-faith movement, Health and wealth prosperity gospel,positive confession false teachings, etc. Pastor mike needs to stop inviting false teachers to preach from TPWOC pulpit. Pastor Mike needs to repent and renounce of all this all in writing and in front of the church! Pastor Mike needs to pull people from leadership positions who teach any of these false teachings! Elders should not have any connection with being on the payroll! Pastor Mike needs to be held accountable by Elders who are gifted in apologetics so that this doesn't happen again! Pastor Mike will have to under go counseling from a outside sourse for long period of time! Pastor Mike needs to meet with people he has hurt and say he is sorry! Pastor Mike needs to give up all outside side jobs and just be a Pastor! I am sure I can think of more. If this happens TPWOC will be saved and you would see real revival! If not TPWOC will become real messy and things will be worse! Then Pastor Mike could leave the State and take over some other church or start his own! Or the TP people who have left could start there own church! Whatever happens TPWOC is going to be an embarrassment to Marysville! For those of you who chose to stay and fight,Praise the Lord! For those who won't change, we love you and pray for your eyes to be opened! We will never give up the fight for truth!

I am not qualified to say the five fold ministry is wrong even though the more I find out the more I wonder how TPCWOC Leadership could buy into it, I found an article from a Biblical Scholar on the topic and the word that popped of the page at me was -- heresy. However, for me, it refutes the teachings and doctrine that Pastor Mike is feeding his flock as weill as reinforcing the decision for my husband and I to leave TPCWOC.

The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry
by Robert Bowman

It has recently become popular to speak of "the five-fold ministry," a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal "Restoration" movement and its offshoot, "kingdom now" teaching, claims that one of the things which God is "restoring" to the church is this five-fold ministry. The sole prooftext used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13, which states that Christ gave "some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,...until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God." The word "until," it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers. However, it is the "building up" of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith..." The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in "equipping the saints" was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.

Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has "been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Eph. 2:20) and that Christ's mystery concerning the church was "revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" (3:5). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century.

The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26; 5:32; Luke 1:1-4; 1 Cor. 9:1). Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8). The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet. 1:12-15; 2:1; 3:2, 14-16; Jude 3-4, 17 ). Peter and Jude did not say, "Listen to the apostles living today," but instead urged believers to "remember what the apostles said."

I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6; 1:1), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7 ) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6). However, none of these persons was chosen as a successor to an earlier apostle (Matthias was Judas's replacement, not his successor, since Judas had forsaken his apostleship, Acts 1:21-26).

There are other senses in which the word "apostle" is used in the New Testament. Certain individuals, including Epaphroditus, were "apostles of the churches" (2 Cor. 8:23; Phil. 2:25). These "apostles" had no authority over the church; they were messengers sent by and subject to their churches. In this latter sense it would be perfectly legitimate to speak of church representatives as "apostles," were it not for the confusion which might result from such usage.

Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the "foundation" laid in the first-century church. This is not to deny the continuing validity of the gift of "prophecy," since Paul does refer to prophesying as a basic activity in which all Christians are urged to participate to the extent God gifts them (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 11:4-5; 12:10; 13:2, 8-9; 14:1-6, 20-33; 1 Thess. 5:20), and in a general functional sense persons exercising this gift are even called "prophets" (1 Cor. 14:32, 37). Yet Paul also speaks of specific persons who occupied an office of "prophet" which was second in authority only to apostle (1 Cor. 12:28-29 ). It is this office of "prophet," not all prophecy, which I am arguing passed away around the end of the first century.

Finally, some errors on this matter are worse than others. The loose use of the world "apostle" to refer to missionaries or church planters is not a serious error as long as this usage is sharply distinguished from the concept of an apostle who brings new doctrinal revelations and wields unquestionable authority. Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to "apostles" in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith.

On the other hand, to interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15).

The teachers of the "five-fold ministry," in seeking to "restore" a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ.

Daughter of Dorcas

I attend a church that believes in a "Five fold ministry." While I don't fully believe in this, I don't feel I need to leave my church. I enjoy the church very mush so. I have seen many people helped at the Pastor's expense. I have observed these people for many years. They are good aquaintances of mine and friends. We differ on some views. I would like to have a job with the church. I know for any organization it would be the right thing to be cautious/ or err on the part of caution before letting someone lead who has differing views. However, I would understand that there are things I can do and not while in leadership under their roof. Sometimes, it is difficult getting involved, but I try. It is a good time to practice patience and humility. I would never cause a church split, but I know it would be on the mind of those in charge. Hmm, I think I was deabating with myself. Well, do you think it would be okay to stay in a church, worship, and fellowship even if you don't agree with everything?

Walter............here we go.................it depends on what the issues are. If they are the twisting of the word of God like Turning Point and Radiant Life do then I would say you should do everything to correct them and help them to see the truth and if they are not willing to be the truth then leave. If it is about administrative stuf you do not agree with like for instance whether ushers should wear suits or not or what time the services are or how long the services are then I would say no.

And PS..........before we get to deep into your question and issue what does it have to do with "Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Debate the Issues". Are you just trolling on here or did you want to debate some issues at Turning Point?

whatajoke,

Believe you me, it has something to do with TPC. Don't fret, as I am not a troll.

They wont debate the issues They will use the tactics of a false authority to appear to be above reproach.

There attitude typifies this false teaching of forgiveness. according to the theology of Tony and Mike and using there logic;

person "A" the abuser, can abuse people then go about his life continuing to abuse people with no consequences. And according to Tony's belief system person "B" the abused, some how needs to just get over it and forgive person "A". Right?

Forgiveness occurs when person "A" the abuser goes to person "B" the abused and asks for forgiveness. the act of asking for forgiveness is when person "A" dialogues or reasons with person "B" admitting to the specifics abuses and wrongs that person "A" has perpetrated upon person "B."
person "A" also goes to person "B" with a humble and contrite heart and opens up to person “B” regarding any other grievances that person “B” would have and that person “A” is not aware of.

The act of repentance is two fold
1. Be sorry
• to recognize the wrong in something you have done and be sorry about it
2. Changed ways,
• to feel regret about a sin or past actions and change your ways or habits.

When person “A” comes to person “B” and flippantly says “oh I’m sorry about all the ______” but person “A” goes back doing the same thing it is obvious that person “A” was never sorry or remorseful for what they did. Person “A” is like a dog returning to its own vomit.

You people may disagree but you need to break the argument you can not pick and chose what you accept out of the Bible.

Now going back to the analogy of person "A" and forgiveness do I understand Tony's Sycophants explanation of forgiveness to be more like this?

Person "A" is standing before God. God looks at person “A’s” life and says; “I see that you have some sin here...actually quite a bit! Let’s see…you have hated me, taken my name in vain, lusted, you have lied, coveted, disobeyed your parents and stolen things. Hmm you have broken my rules and that has hurt me a lot…
According to Tony's theology, God is going to just forgive person “A”? like God is Going to say; Well guess what today is you lucky day cause I’m in just a great mood, ever since I started drinking decaf I’m not all that judgmental any more...come on into heaven I will just forgive it all.”
Is that the theology you follow? Because when we stand before God he is a righteous Judge. If we are standing before him with that pile of sin he has no other choice that to condemn us to Hell. Oh and I have heard people say well I don’t believe in Hell. Sir, you can stand before a judge and say I don’t believe in Jail, but if you are guilty you will go to jail.

I am not going to water down the Bible, nor am I going to lower my standards, so up yours!

Quote
buddy
False Apostle Mike Villamors new series is on Heroic Christianity. Mike Villamor you are a coward, lets get together and debate the false doctrines you teach. You are a coward who spends to much time in Seattle so you won't run into any ex-Tp members. Pretty bad when you have to leave town to avoid people. You preach how you want TPCWOC to be a model church for the other churches in the world. Give me a break, Mike you modeled your church after toilet bug false apostle your spirtual father ( I lost my church) Tony Cunningham of Radiant Life Church! I forgot that you said Ted Haggard had a huge impact on the way TPCWOC turn out to! And now you have false teachers Casey Treat coming in his helicopter and the next Dr. Increase ,Dave ( I want to be just like Tony Robbins) Martin coming to Turning Point. You say you want people to be producers, producers of what Mike, (Money) so you can move into a more exclusive fancy neighborhood with a bigger house so you can have more young spiritual slaves live with you and worship you. You must feel really like some hero when you have alot of your inner circle brain washed kool-aid drinkers sucking up to you and twittering you to tell you how thankful they are that you are their hero.During your sermon you used 9/11 and the terrorists to convince people to be hero's, Mike you are a terrorist against the Christian faith and the City of Marysville. You sneak around hiding behind the God of unity while you plot your false doctrines and deceive people in thinking your some great apostle of the new testament. I pray that hearts and minds will be opened to the deception which is taking place at Turning Point Church World Outreach Center. I Love all the people at TPCWOC and even Mike and Cydni, they have drifted so far away I hope and pray they find there way back! Mike Villamor feels that he has been mistreated and so instead of listening to the heathy criticism and repenting and making things right, Mike says he is going to Love you and that he will win you over! So next time your walking down the street and some insane weirdo comes up to you and says he Loves you, It might just be false apostle of Great Faith Mike Villamor!

Buddy, You are absolutely right on with your assessment. Mike is a coward and he has to hide behind this falsehood of authority that he parades around with. Mike is one of these guys still trying to play Mega Church..
What is next for Mike? Maybe he could bring in Todd Bentley and just maybe Todd could do a full blown frontal tackle on Mike and then say he got a demon out of Mike.

Why can't pastors preach the gospel?

NICE!!!
AT LEAST WITH THIS CHURCH GROUP,
THEY ARE HONEST ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT $$,$$$,$$$.$$

I want to be a Billionaire, So F###ing bad... This is what the original song says. here is the original acoustic Track if you don't believe me but be warned they make no attempt to white wash this video.

The language in the original uses the old prevail “F” bomb. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to know that the word frickin is a less offensive phrase with the same meaning.

So basically this Church (I hate to use the term church) Group is saying to its youth...Hey its OK to talk like the world.

I find this offensive and inappropriate for even a pseudo-Christian church group like TPC to use a song like this!
I mean if your going to act like your a Christian group then at least act more Christ like.
It is all smoke and mirrors

This is highly inappropriate for a Church group the youth. This lip sink is done by the worship leader to promote the Prosperity speaker Ken Ralston so my first question is why: would TPCSV subject There congregation and youth to this song and or this teacher? Why would you embrace this prosperity preacher?

If the Church Lady from Saturday Night Live was doing a review on this I could only imagine the questions; Hmmm what would posses the little youth pastor to do a song like this?........Hmm....Could it be.....SATAN?


I have another video that I would like you to check out
This has no bad language, and it is brutally honest especially when it comes to presenting the Gospel. Compare this message to what TPC offered for there Bulletin

Every time you take out the heart of the Gospel ‘Sin, Righteousness and Judgment’
you end up with legalism!
It happens every time with out fail.
If you remove the Law, Sin, Repentance and Faith you turn God into the cosmic vending machine,
and you will replace it with Rules.

It appears that the leadership is setting TPC church up for spiritual failure! They are turning you (The Congregation, the Sheep) over to the ravenous wolves to come in and lead you away from faith in Jesus. They are teaching the membership to see god as some cosmic god Genie that you need to rub?

That is not grace and you cannot access grace unless you have repentance!