Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: March 05, 2011 12:06AM

Cult like church groups seem to have this incestuous mentality. It would not be surprising if Calvin Bontrager or someone else "on the inside" becomes the new cult leader....

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: seentoomuch ()
Date: March 05, 2011 11:59AM

I’ve been thinking a lot about the remnant left at TPC. There have been glimmers of hope and opportunities for real change but none have taken the opportunity to do what is right. They claim that there is change, but when I have asked “what has changed?” no one can tell me. There has been professed hope in this new group of elders but they lack conviction, knowledge and ability to think independently. It appears that the remnant left is both deaf and blind.
I think about the missed opportunities to ‘right the wrongs’ that have been done to so many, especially the Singer family. I know that once the Barnes’ leave that there will never be reconciliation to the truth. Jeff and Kim are the only ones left that have the information and leadership to resolve this. I understand that they believe that they have done what they can and that it is time to move on but I disagree. How can the church be expected to move on, grow and be strong when the foundation is built on lies, cover ups and pride? Jackie was accused and convicted in a public setting and without a public apology to Jackie, her family and the church, there will always be doubt and unrest. There was attendance taken at that meeting, there is a list of names and addresses that exists. It would take very little effort on the part of Jeff Barnes to write a letter, absolving Jackie of wrongdoing, explaining that there was misconduct among the leaders in dealing with this persecution, and genuinely asking for forgiveness. If this does not occur, the remnant will continue to trudge forward, dragging the baggage of the past like a carcass. Most of the remaining leadership only know portions of what has transpired over the years, except for possibly Koellmer’s and Olin’s, and have only been given information on a need to know basis. There is no way this group could ever take responsibility for the past.
I know for myself that I am desperately trying to move on and put the past where it belongs.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Calvin Bontrager ()
Date: March 05, 2011 11:52PM

Quote
TurningPointReject
The following questions come from the book: Recovering from Churches That Abuse, by Ronald Enroth, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Zondervon, 1994. They are helpful when discussing your own experience and evaluating the comments of others as they post here.

1. Does a member’s personality generally become stronger, happier, more confident as a result of contact with the group?

In an abusive church, the use of guilt, fear, and intimidation to control members is likely to produce members who have a low self-image, who feel beaten down by legalism, who have been taught that asserting oneself is not spiritual.

One of the first disturbing characteristics to be reported by relatives and friends of members of these churches is a noticeable change in personality, usually in a negative direction.


2. Do members of the group seek to strengthen their family commitments?
Nearly all unhealthy churches attempt to minimize the commitments of their members to their family, especially parents.

Young people may be told that they now have a new “spiritual” family, complete with leaders who will “re-parent” them.

Church loyalty is seen as paramount, and family commitments are discouraged or viewed as impediments to spiritual advancement.


3. Does the group encourage independent thinking and the development of discernment skills?

Control-oriented leaders attempt to dictate what members think, although the process is so spiritualized that members usually do not realize what is going on.

A pastor or leader is viewed as God’s mouth piece, and in varying degrees a member’s decision making and ability to think for oneself are swallowed up by the group.

Pressure to conform and low tolerence for questioning make it difficult to be truly discerning.


4. Does the group allow for individual differences of belief and behaviour, particularly on issues of secondary importance?

A legalistic emphasis on keeping rules and a focus on the need to stay within prescribed boundaries is always present in unhealthy spiritual envionments.

Lifestyle rigidity in such groups increase a member’s guilt feelings and contributes to spiritual bondage. This rigidity is often coupled with an emphasis on beliefs that would not receive great attention in mainstream evangelicalism.


5. Does the group encourage high moral standards both among members and between members and non members?

In intense, legalistic churches and religious organizations, the official, public proclamations usually place special value on high moral standards.

In some instances, there is a double standard between those in leadershp and those in the rank and file membership.

Abusive churches tend to have incidents of sexual misconduct more often than most conventonal churches; leaders sometimes exhibit an obsessive interest in matters relating to sex.


6. Does the group’s leadership invite dialogue, advice and evaluation from outside its immediate circle?

Authoritarian pastors are usually threatened by any outside expression of diverse opinions, whether from inside or outside the group. When outside speakers are given access to the pulpit, they are carefully selected to minimize any threat to the leadership’s agenda.

Coercive pastors are fiercely independent and do not function well in a structure of accountability.

For the sake of public relations, they may boast that they are accountable to a board of some sort, when in actuality the board is composed of “yes-men” who do not question the leader’s authority.


7. Does the group allow for development in theological beliefs?

Another hallmark of an authoritarian church is its intolerance of any belief system different from its own.

They tend to measure and evaluate all forms of Christian spirituality according to their own carefully prescribed system, adopting an “us-versus-them” mentality.


8. Are group members encouraged to ask hard questions of any kind?

A cardinal rule of abusive systems is “Don’t ask questions, don’t make waves.”

A healthy pastor welcomes even tough questions. In an unhealthy church disagreement with the pastor is considered to be disloyalty and is tantamount to disobeying God.

People who repeatedly question the system are labelled “rebellious”, “unteachable”, or “disharmonious to the body of Christ”.

Persistent questioners may face sanctions of some kind such as being publicly ridiculed, shunned, shamed, humiliated, or disfellowshiped.


9. Do members appreciate truth wherever it is found even if it is outside their group?

Whether they admit it or not, abusive churches tend to view themselves as spiritually superior to other Christian groups.

This religious elitism allows little room for outside influences. There can be no compromise with external sources, who, the leadership will say, really don’t understand what is going on in the ministry anyway.


10. Is the group honest in dealing with nonmembers, especially as it tries to win them to the group?

Sometimes abusive groups illustrate a “split-level religion”. There is one level for public presentation and another for the inner circle of membership.

The former is a carefully crafted public relations effort, the latter a reality level experienced only by the “true believers”.

Recruitment tactics are usually intense, even if they are not actually deceptive or fraudulent, they can be manipulative or exploitive.

Sometimes high pressure religious groups are evasive about there ture identity: “We really don’t have a name, we’re just Christians.”

A healthy Christian group should have no qualms about revealing who it is and what its intentions are.


11. Does the group foster relationships and connections with the larger society that are more than self-serving?

First impressions are not always correct. Sustained contact with an First impressions are not always correct. Sustained contact with an unhealthy church, however, will usually reveal a pattern that is consistent with the characteristics we have identified.

Members will be requested to serve, to become involved, to sign up for a variety of activities that, upon closer inspection, appear to maintain the system and serve the needs of the leadership.

Abusive churches thrive on tactics that promote dependency.

Emphasizing obedience and submission to leaders, these churches often require a level of service that is

overwhelming to members, resulting in emotional turmoil and spiritual breakdowns.

I would have to say that the questions you have posed in this thread are super important in any healthy church. In my experience these truths and practices should be foundational to all ministry. What we want is to encourage the development of seeking and foster environments where people can express themselves and find love and acceptance without judgment. [...] In our leadership class I teach that one of the first keys to becoming a great leader is to be just as excited to find oneself wrong as right. This is core to any real dialogue. [...]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2011 11:58PM by rrmoderator.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Calvin Bontrager ()
Date: March 06, 2011 12:05AM

Recently i was contacted and made aware that my name has been mentioned on this site. So I thought it may be worth while, out of respect for those who carry sincere concerns, to make myself available for any discussion that may be on there heart. Given that I do not believe any of you know me or my church I would gladly intertain any questions. [...]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2011 12:09AM by rrmoderator.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: March 06, 2011 12:08AM

Calvin Bontrager:

It is against the rules of this message board, which you agreed to before posting here, to post contact information on the board.

If you sincerely want to address concerns and questions about TPC you can do so here on the board openly.

Please don't post your personal email information again.

Perhaps some very basic questions regarding the objective facts about TPC should be addressed. And since you are teaching a leadership you should know the answers.

1. Is there a board at TPC, which is elected by ballot as mandated by bylaws by the general church membership. If so, do board officers serve fixed terms, stand for regular re-election and have the power to fire staff (e.g. pastors)?

2. Is there an independently audited financial report published annually and distributed to all TPC contributors, which discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds?

These are simple questions and they afford the means for anyone to readily recognize if there is real and meaningful accountability and/or financial transparency regarding TPC and its leaders.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Calvin Bontrager ()
Date: March 06, 2011 01:39AM

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rrmoderator
Calvin Bontrager:

It is against the rules of this message board, which you agreed to before posting here, to post contact information on the board.

If you sincerely want to address concerns and questions about TPC you can do so here on the board openly.

Please don't post your personal email information again.

Perhaps some very basic questions regarding the objective facts about TPC should be addressed. And since you are teaching a leadership you should know the answers.

1. Is there a board at TPC, which is elected by ballot as mandated by bylaws by the general church membership. If so, do board officers serve fixed terms, stand for regular re-election and have the power to fire staff (e.g. pastors)?

2. Is there an independently audited financial report published annually and distributed to all TPC contributors, which discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds?

These are simple questions and they afford the means for anyone to readily recognize if there is real and meaningful accountability and/or financial transparency regarding TPC and its leaders.

I apologize about the email rule I have only just joined the forum and I had overlooked that issue.

In regard to your question

I am not sure which bylaws you are referring to but we have our own bylaws and are an independent 501. If you will check out the Oregon Corporate Registry you will note that we were established in the 1940's or 50's as a part of the Church of God Anderson movement. A connection that remains in good standing with a credintialing committee that I submit to and am ordained with for more than 10 years. Our connection with TPC in Marysville was always a voluntary connection seeking to be more effective in moving the kingdom of God forward. We worked with the church.....largely through Jeff Moores and the youth program.....to learn how to better reach our community and be open to God's leading.

I have always maintained an open book policy at our church.... We have always had a vote by ballott board election system.....until this past two years where we changed it to an elder ratification system given that as the church grows it becomes nearly impossible to get a quorum that represents even a 1/4 of the church population. We do have checks and balances developed into our bylaws that allow the board of elders to remove pastors or even that allow the membership to remove elders or pastors.... We are completely open with all of our records and have a CPA that directs all of our financial affairs ..... For the entire 12 years of my ministry here in Lebanon I have maintained a policy where any church member can attend any board meeting and all of our financial records including an actual copy of a check by check register.... Are available to anyone upon request at any time... We publish a annual corporate report to our people each year, annualizing and gaining approval for all transaction and ministry activity.

In 12 years we have had only one no vote on any issue that we have moved forward on in our church. We strive for unity without asking for uniformity.....encourage and openly handle differing opinions and I am certianly just on of the congragation who happens to have a bit different calling. We are a team and do not promote a top down, rulership, style of leadership......

Thank you for your question I hope I have answers them. If you have others I would gladly answer them

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: March 06, 2011 03:06AM

My question calvin is I was told you stated that you werent hearing from God and then you realized that you didnt need to hear from God because He sent mike villamore, the apostle, who could hear from God and transmit Gods word to you. is this a true statement? and if so did you realize your mistakes or were you caught up in the kool aid drinking also, or was this just pastorbation, the stuff that usually goes on amungst leaders. can you speak the truth about you and mike. I know mike probably thinks hes a victem of evildoers, gossips and slanderers. and will probably never just be honest, about his ambitions, his entitlement as a leader, his thinking he was the only one who knew the truth. and the justification of ungodly behaivor, but calvin can you be honest about who you are, I do not know you but from what I've heard about you , you are a stand up guy. I know jeff barnes,is not an evil person, he was just taught to protect the reputation of the church, well not exactly the church but his church. to protect mike and cyndis reputation, at the expense of the truth. but after knowing the truth , he justifies himself by saying he was decieved. heres the problem I have with that. if I'm being taught by a decieved person, then this person obviously is not in fellowship with Christ. the Holy spirit is not guiding him , but deception. so how can I trust anything they say. I dont think the wrong is in being decieved , I think the wrong is not taking responsibility for the deception, and admiting a lack of personal ralation with Christ. and starting over. can you be honest, transparent about your ambitions at turningpoint. The fact is if there is any hope for that body of Christ called turningpoint church. it will come from absolute truth and repentence. not from justifing actions by blaming them on others.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Hector_Ragnar ()
Date: March 06, 2011 04:12AM

Dear Calvin and anyone else still empathetic to the teachings of Mike Villamore or Tony Cunningham.

In all humility and an open hand, not a clenched fist, unwilling to listen, but wanting to hear sound reasoning.

I have to ask you
How much false teaching has to come out of a man before you call him a False Teacher Or False Preacher?
25% truth, 60% mediocre teaching and 15% bad??? or 30% bad 65% mediocre teaching and 5% truth???

Remember, Every false teachers weaves in a little truth.

The Christian church has been under attack since the first century, read the epistles by Paul, Peter, John & Jude they helped establish the foundations of the Christian church, addressing issues then!
LOOK in Revelation chapters 1-3 Jesus has some hard words to the 7 churches because they were already being infiltrated with false teachings. In Revelation 2 Jesus complements the church for testing the false teachers.
I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.


The problem we Christians are having today, is we have let the wolves come in and play with the sheep, and Christians have not been equipped to know how to study the bible. What most people know of their faith comes from some lyric's of a song or something they read on a "T" Shirt.

Cunningham still promotes himself as being an apostle and prophet of God, yet the fruit of what he teaches has hurt hundreds of people, the testimonies are overwhelming and people like you ignore the facts.

In Acts the Berean's were complemented for testing what Paul taught. Christians today have a big responsibility to test everything according to scripture.. Because we have not been testing things we end up with a Benny Hinn, Todd Bentley, T.D.Jake's and Rob Bell.

People are so quick to quote Matthew 7:1 & 2
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

But why don't they read the whole chapter,

in context? Using biblical hermeneutics????


"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits."

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.


or look at Verse 13 &14
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7

Today the church today is looking more and more like the wide path

So Calvin please be honest here, share with us what your theology is and don't just copy and paste something you think will tickle our ears

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: buddy ()
Date: March 06, 2011 11:19AM

Dear Calvin, I was told by Deacon Orval Bontrager the time you made your first trip up to TPCWOC with your church people that you had a church split or some kind of problem for people to leave. Could you please explain what happened, and Orval I believe said something about knowing false Apostle Mike when he worked in Edmonds. Could you explain how you fell into the deception of the false Apostle Mike and decided to be one of Mikes plant churches? At the time that you decided to be one with TPCWOC they where teaching and promoting false doctrine. Did you confront Mike about the teaching on one of his many visits to your church? Why would you model your church after TPCWOC when they practiced cultic behavior and have caused many to suffer spiritual abuse? How come three of your Elders have the same last name? How come two of your deacons have the same last name? How did you meet false Apostle Mike? Do you believe your mental state is in tact after following and naming your church after false Apostle Mikes church? Could you release all of the sermons false Apostle Mike Preached at your church. How many times did Mike visit your Church and did you ever give him double honor or treat him like King Tut? Did you ever give Mike money or gifts of any sort? Do you think TPCWOC should give the money back that they conned from everybody for the buiding fund? Do you Calvin want to be the new leader of TPCWOC? If what Orval told me is true, was that the reason you joined up with Mike because of knowing him from the past and that your church problem put you in a weak state of mind? You then fell for his delusional mind of being some kind of great Apostle who was going to lead you into the promised land? Thanks for your time, look forward to your response.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Calvin Bontrager ()
Date: March 06, 2011 12:20PM

Quote
buddy
Dear Calvin, I was told by Deacon Orval Bontrager the time you made your first trip up to TPCWOC with your church people that you had a church split or some kind of problem for people to leave. Could you please explain what happened, and Orval I believe said something about knowing false Apostle Mike when he worked in Edmonds. Could you explain how you fell into the deception of the false Apostle Mike and decided to be one of Mikes plant churches? At the time that you decided to be one with TPCWOC they where teaching and promoting false doctrine. Did you confront Mike about the teaching on one of his many visits to your church? Why would you model your church after TPCWOC when they practiced cultic behavior and have caused many to suffer spiritual abuse? How come three of your Elders have the same last name? How come two of your deacons have the same last name? How did you meet false Apostle Mike? Do you believe your mental state is in tact after following and naming your church after false Apostle Mikes church? Could you release all of the sermons false Apostle Mike Preached at your church. How many times did Mike visit your Church and did you ever give him double honor or treat him like King Tut? Did you ever give Mike money or gifts of any sort? Do you think TPCWOC should give the money back that they conned from everybody for the buiding fund? Do you Calvin want to be the new leader of TPCWOC? If what Orval told me is true, was that the reason you joined up with Mike because of knowing him from the past and that your church problem put you in a weak state of mind? You then fell for his delusional mind of being some kind of great Apostle who was going to lead you into the promised land? Thanks for your time, look forward to your response.

Buddy this is not the kind of question I will normally deal with because it implies that I know what everyone says however I can tell you that we have never had a church split....so I am not sure what that is about.... My brother did know Mike as a youth pastor. Typically, doctrine is a stated set of beliefs, at least when we talk about churches. WOC's doctrinal statement is and has been listed on the web site.....please specify what statement you are asking about. There is a big difference between the stated doctrine of a movement and the individual practice of an individual implementing that doctrine.... I believe your issue is with the teaching, practice and application more than the stated doctrine. Given that I have only attended less than a dozen WOC services in my life I would be rather ill equipped to talk about the supposed delusional state the church was in when I came on board. I will refer you to some of my other replys for a better understanding of our situation and how we came to WOC

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