Thank, M&M for this good post. I think that what you are doing is one of the ony things concerned Christians can do at this point when they see the aberrations of Turning Point and other like-led/minded churches . . . and that is to keep putting the truly biblical and "normal" (i.e., the wise and prudent practices that have helped preserve the integrity of the church over time) realities "out there" for people to compare with what they are experiencing. Then people must choose for themselves.

I keep thinking of the rebuttals I've heard from Turningpoint-ites and others whose churches don't care much for biblical truth in its proper context. They use experience and "love" to trump the need for truth. But recently I recalled a book--I think it was written by Randy Alcorn--that I read a long time ago about the indispensible nature/qualities of both truth and love. They're like the two wings of a bird. The bird can't fly with only one of its wings; it must have both. So it is with Christians and God's truth and love.

If you can easily dismiss that mataphor, then think of an airplane. Would you get on a plane if it was missing one wing and say to the other people as you got on the plane, "Well, at least it has one wing, and it's the wing I think is most important"? Neither should we attend a church that says, in essence, "We've got love, we don't need to worry so much about truth because love will cover it all."

Truth and love are two essentials. Neither one works without the other. Beware of any church that downplays the need for sound truth (doctrine).

M&M, I appreciate how you consistently seek to fly with BOTH wings attached to your faith.

LP

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M&M
It has been awhile since I have written.

There is an interesting website called Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (you can google ECFA. It outlines seven standards for financial accountability that seem so common sense but seem to be missed by many organizations including TP.

What is of specific interest to me are the basic tenets of healthy financial practices and secondly, it has a section on principles for an independent board. The most obvious are that no board member can be on staff, or family of staff, or blood relation to the leader.

This seems so obvious and full of common sense. It also advises the planned turnover of the board on a regular basis. The need to maintain continuity but also fresh perspective.

These two principles it seems to me, clear regular financial practices and an independent board can save all church or Christian ministries enormous pain and scandal and public derision.

I just read again II Corinthians, it is informative I think in regards to Turning Point but also any ministry. There were two things that hit home to me. Paul was, along with Moses, one of the most influential men who ever lived (I am not including Jesus of course). He was brilliant, well educated, deeply spiritual, yet what is so obvious in reading 2 Cor is that there was absolutely no cult worship of Paul. In fact it was exactly the opposite. At times reading the text Paul has to appeal to them, to explain to them, this occurs again and again in both 1 and 2 Cor. How different this is to the current concept of apostolic royalty.

Marty

I think I have decided that it is better to attend a church where the pastor is a shepherd rather than a guru of a spiritual leader. I visited a church today where my daughter attends and the pastor delivered a good message. He was not a powerful orator, rather, was a lover of God's word and reminded me of what Paul must have been like. He is not involved in the movement afoot in marysville that I know of, and actually left his fathers church because they became unbalanced in the laughter movement. I don't want to be part of a movement. I want to be God's child and able to minister as He leads me. Not as the church leaders instruct me. I want God to be my leader.

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tell the truth
I think I have decided that it is better to attend a church where the pastor is a shepherd rather than a guru of a spiritual leader. I visited a church today where my daughter attends and the pastor delivered a good message. He was not a powerful orator, rather, was a lover of God's word and reminded me of what Paul must have been like. He is not involved in the movement afoot in marysville that I know of, and actually left his fathers church because they became unbalanced in the laughter movement. I don't want to be part of a movement. I want to be God's child and able to minister as He leads me. Not as the church leaders instruct me. I want God to be my leader.

Amen Tell The Truth, so say we all!

D of D

Read this excerpt from Jim Bakker's book: I Was Wrong
www.spriritwatch.org/firejbwong.htm


Jim Bakker says that all his years of preaching the "Prosperity Gospel" was WRONG!

I think I know the church you are speaking about Tell the Truth and the church of his father. However, I have a friend who attends the father's church and he told me that the father announced from the pulpit late last year that he had been seeking after signs and wonders, but God convicted him mightily and now he just wants to seek and save the lost. That's exactly what Jesus came to do and that's the kind of church I want to find. Thank God he LISTENED AND OBEYED.

I can totally understand people going off into these movements when at first it's because they truly do WANT GOD. But then, when God warns them through people that they're off just a little and they don't listen that's when I get angry. I've also been there -- I've fallen into churches -- yes Turning Point -- where they were edgy because I wanted God. But when it became clear they actually fell off the edge I had to leave. And that was a high price to pay as we all know -- the loss of friends and family is not easy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2010 12:38AM by WonderingNow.

Has anyone noticed how much TPCWOC's model resembles that of Amway!?

I'd say they resemble an vacuum cleaner company . Their product sucks , makes lots of noise , packaging and promotion are essential and their product is touted as the latest and greatest by people who don't care if it does what it is supposed to or not as long as it makes them money . Filth is gathered and stored in a compartmentalized unit with the initial waste rising higher and higher as more waste is introduced !

That's really good OstrasizedOne. I don't think they resemble Amway other than their new "bring 2" plan. They're not doing that to save souls but to bring in more tithers so they can afford to keep the sinking ship afloat. And what's with 2 services? I guess they're doing that "in faith" to produce more tithers. I wonder if Jeff Barnes will ever preach the original gospel or if he will perpetuate the "come to Jesus to get all you can get" gospel. Disgusting.

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UndeniablyLivid
That's really good OstrasizedOne. I don't think they resemble Amway other than their new "bring 2" plan. They're not doing that to save souls but to bring in more tithers so they can afford to keep the sinking ship afloat. And what's with 2 services? I guess they're doing that "in faith" to produce more tithers. I wonder if Jeff Barnes will ever preach the original gospel or if he will perpetuate the "come to Jesus to get all you can get" gospel. Disgusting.

people come...................... "give all you can give"

From the site biblelight.net:

The Bible on False Prophets

The Old Testament

The True Prophet Hears From God Through Dreams:

Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

The True Prophet Preaches Repentance And Obedience To God's Law

Jer 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
Jer 23:22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

Jer 26:4 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you,
Jer 26:5 To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, but ye have not hearkened;
Jer 26:6 Then will I make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.

Jer 35:15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Defining The False Prophet And Their Fate:

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Jer 23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

The Motivation of the False Prophet Is Money:

Micah 3:9 [NIV] Hear this, you leaders of the house of Jacob, you rulers of the house of Israel, who despise justice and distort all that is right;
Micah 3:10 [NIV] who build Zion with bloodshed, and Jerusalem with wickedness.
Micah 3:11 [NIV] Her leaders judge for a bribe, her priests teach for a price, and her prophets tell fortunes for money. Yet they lean upon the LORD and say, "Is not the LORD among us? No disaster will come upon us."
Micah 3:12 [NIV] Therefore because of you, Zion will be plowed like a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of rubble, the temple hill a mound overgrown with thickets.

Jer 6:13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
Jer 6:14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
Jer 6:15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

Ezek 22:25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
Ezek 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they showed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
Ezek 22:27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.
Ezek 22:28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered mortar, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.

Many People Actually Prefer False Prophets:

Isa 30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
Isa 30:11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?

The Fate Of False Prophets And Those Who Follow Them:

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Jer 14:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
Jer 14:16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.

The Prophecies Of False Prophets Do Not Always Fail:

Deu 13:1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
Deu 13:2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
Deu 13:3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
Deu 13:5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

The New Testament

Wonderful Works Are Done By False Prophets In The Name Of The Lord:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity [lawlessness].

False Prophets Will Be Numerous, And Very Successful:

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity [lawlessness] shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Pet 2:2 [NIV] Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
2 Pet 2:3 [NIV] In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Many Prefer The False Prophet:

2 Tim 4:2 [NIV] Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

True Prophets Are Always In Harmony With Other Prophets Of God And Scripture:

1 Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

False Prophets Work Impressive Miracles That Deceive:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.