To tell the truth, Wondering Now,

It is a difficult journey. I find comfort in God's Word and in prayer, especially during those times when I begin to have doubts about the local church. I am thankful for each of you. Your Father Loves you. Thank you, both, for your heartfelt posts.

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TurningPointReject

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Phun with Pharisees
I stand corrected Christine, I have used generalizations. I have not read ALL of the threads. I have wrongly lumped some into the group that don't deserve it (namely Northwest..and I'm sure there are others) but for the sake of my time(it would take a long time to read each post and subsequest response) and my sanity (I have sampled enough of the more venomous posts..the Cliff Notes version) that it would be painful to read. Remember there is some boasting going on about hitting the 100k mark on this thread so once again...I HAVE NOT READ EVERY SINGLE POST. Therefore I used broad sweeping generalizations about the authors of some of the more nasty posts..you know who you are. Yes Christine, I am a liar and a hypocrite. The difference is I recognize it and can admit it. By the way the "boat" you speak of will continue to remain afloat as long as there are people. I appreciate your sarcasm though.

Phun Pharisee, This is Allen. I see you misconstrued the following, which I sent to you, as boasting. It is neither boasting nor celebrating.

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The Turning Point thread just hit the 100,000 view mark. Thank you for your contribution. Without you it would have never happened.

It was a statement of fact. The truth is your post generated several views that might not have occurred otherwise. Its ironic.
I do thank you for your contribution. For without yours and that of many many others there would not be so many views. It sparked some thoughtful dialogue and added to the views of this thread.

Your contributions also underscored the very truths regarding the behaviour of spiritually abusive churches and their members. Thank you. For what you meant to be mean, demeaning, and hurtful God is able to use to reveal truth.

I am not surprised that you havent read all the posts. Your posts made it clear that you were speaking from an uninformed position. I believe your fear is what keeps you from reading each post. My question is, "What do you fear"? Do you fear being made an outcast by your spiritual leaders? Do you fear losing your place of honor? What do you fear?

Again...your desire to intimidate and bully people on this forum into silence will not work. If you care to dialogue about the concerns and issues raised on this forum then man up and do so. But we will not sit back idly and allow you to cow us into silence. So...man up.

Phun Pharisee,

This forum ebbs and flows with activity. Things had just started to begin to ebb again when you came along with your flame thrower and started blasting away. I told you, that as a result, the forum would most likely hit 99,000 views in a week ( at the time there was 98,000 views). I was wrong. It took a couple days longer. It took even less time to hit 100,000 views. But it would have been even longer had it not been for your posting. The very thing you dont want happening , you caused--more people reading this forum. But---as you said about yourself---it is because of this forum you decided to attend Turning Point Church. So you should be rejoicing that we are causing your church to grow. You should tell others who dont attend Turning Point Church to read this forum. Perhaps they too, like you, will be convinced that Turning Point Church is just what they are looking for.

Now, you understand why your leaders forbid you from reading and posting here. Not only do they not want you to think and speak for yourself, they dont want you to provoke others to do the same. So I dont blame you for remaining anonymous. You would be in big trouble with your leaders at Turning Point Church in Marysville if they find out who you are. So remain anonymous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2010 01:22PM by TurningPointReject.

Now that you've had your phun, lets clear up a few things, shall we?

Phun, I think that you brought to light some truth about this board. You brought a new perspective, one that most of us don't have.....that as a person who not only attends TP, but supports them. I know that when I post, I do so with the understanding that it's a public message board. I post my thoughts and feelings, in part, b/c it's therapy for me, but also in hopes that people just like you will read what I have to say, and start asking questions of their own. It is never my intent to anger, inflame, insight or mock others. I believe (though I could be wrong) that the majority of others here feel the same way. I think it would be a good idea for all of us to consider why we post here, and check our hearts before we do, each and every time.

It saddens me to think that you would read only a few posts, some of the more inflamatory ones, and make sweeping judgements about all of us from them. It saddens me that you've stated you really have no interest in reading all of the posts. Not only have you missed out on some very important information, but you've also missed the heart of the men and women who post here, the anguish they have felt making the decision to leave their church home, and the way that they've been treated after leaving. The hope, and the disappointment while searching for a new home. The love for those who stay behind. The passion for truth. The heart break.

Phun, you said in your first post that we should just "get over it". Well, the truth is, for many people, TP was their entire life. They devoted all of their time and energy to serving the church, they alienated their families, and TP became their center, their friends, their family. When people started leaving TP, they left all of that behind. They've been shunned, they've been mocked, they've been slandered. It's hard to move forward, when everything that you know and love is staying behind. It's difficult to move forward, when you fear for the salvation of those you love. You made a point of bringing up that many of us left months or even years ago. I hope that you realize taht many of us spent years at TP, and it's going to take years to heal from the lies, the deciet, and the abuse.

Phun, I pray for you, and for others like you, who've been indoctrinated into the life of TP. I pray that God would reveal His truth to you (to all of us, really). And I pray, that if the day comes that you no longer feel that you can call TP your home church, that you will find the love and support that you need to get through.

Dear CMP,

Your postion as a pastor makes of acceptance of Mike and Cyndi is understandable,and I want to thank you for coming on and aknowledging the pain, hurt and most of all the confusion that surrounds TPC. Although, I do want to address what you call non essentials...is in fact heresy. I think we all agree that scripture is of the highest authority when it comes to Christianity. Unfortunately at TPC it isn't. It is the revelation that Mike has. Its his words that the church hangs on, not Christs.

-Their doctrine of "Covering" (which I believe to be counter productive to the gospel) is the trigger for this type of behavior. It goes like this you want God to protect and bless you, but in order for that to happen you must be under the "spirtual" covering of that leader. You are not allowed to disagree with your covering or God takes your covering away. You are not allowed to question the leader, of whom is covering you because it is not honoring him (this comes from a convoluted postion that honor=money). This is a very performanced based theology, and if we are saved by grace through our faith...than this is a very dangerous doctine that will continue to hurt more and more.

Others like "Word of Faith" is a very complicated doctine... I will tell you my run in with a high up leader when I sat down to ask questions about this doctrine. I said "So I am not buying this Word of faith thing". He then looked shocked and instead of talking me through it very clear and slow, he made this comment "You believe the bible don't you"? "You believe God wants you to prosper...don't you? The fact that this pastor made this comment to me was shocking and offensive. Not only did he imply that I was an idiot for not believing in what he did, he implied that if you don't believe the way he did you were an idiot. Not only was I shocked because of his naive postion, that doesn't aknowledge that seminary (which does way more intense study) teaches otherwise, he flat out didn't answer my question.

Thank you for your post in aknowledgement of our stuggles.
I pray that you will continue to post
and encourage us.

Dear Phun,

I am glad you decided to post again. I mildly regret the tone I took with you last time, I feel enough people lambasted you for the regretable tone you posted with.

I would like to encourage you to continue to ask questions, for what do you have to fear. I had invested 4 years into the church and my justifications of what they were doing ran dry. I knew that what they were doing was wrong, but I didn't ask questions for about a year. When I started to get into leadership I realized how messed up it is(if you are in leadership i respect you ananimity and there is no need to state). I was giving the same justifications they gave me, and when they just stopped answering my continuingly personal and pervasive questions, they said that I was just devisive and that they didn't need to answer my questions. You see, when a church believes it is above reproach then they have truely fallen off the deep end. Even Paul wasn't excused from that, but they believe they are greater than Paul. Well the leadership does, and maybe some of them wont say it...but they sure act like it.

I also wanted to address the statement before you made about "judge a tree by its fruit"
Your train of logic was look at our church look at how many people are getting saved in our ministry, look at how much "good" we are doing. This postion is faultly cause you only can see good fruit. If however we are as evil as you say we are then there is a whole lot more "bad" fruit produced by yours truely, Mike V.

Another question I wanted to ask you is this

"Can you see the selfish with the train of logic your provided"?
You are taking credit for something that God is doing. God can and will use failed, unrightious people, to bring about salvation. He does it all the time at TPC. He does it at other churches too, the only difference is that other churches admit they are not the reason all this good is happening, it is because God is not to proud to use wicked people to acomplish what he wants done, but does that mean I shouldn't preach truth just because God is using your church and it is in sin. Not at all, God will find a way to lead people to himself whether that means having a chruch jump up and down during worship or that means being friends with them and showing them the gospel through my life. Or in some cases having a donkey talk to them....In any way God does what he wants. And the good you claim, is not yours. Its his.


Thanks again for posting.
I look forward to your responce.

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Brokenhearted
Phun, you said in your first post that we should just "get over it". Well, the truth is, for many people, TP was their entire life. They devoted all of their time and energy to serving the church, they alienated their families, and TP became their center, their friends, their family. When people started leaving TP, they left all of that behind. They've been shunned, they've been mocked, they've been slandered. It's hard to move forward, when everything that you know and love is staying behind. It's difficult to move forward, when you fear for the salvation of those you love. You made a point of bringing up that many of us left months or even years ago. I hope that you realize taht many of us spent years at TP, and it's going to take years to heal from the lies, the deciet, and the abuse.

I totally agree with this. And honestly, I think this is part of the problem at TP. It was our entire life. Weekends, during the week, small groups, discipleship groups, ministry groups, serving, so many things we did for so many years. And if we weren't doing enough, I know I was told to get more involved. When something becomes your life like that, it is not easily 'gotten over'. It takes time not only to readjust to having a life outside of church, but adjusting to not being around the same people and same routines you've had for years.

If you had dedicated your life to a person and finally figured out that the relationship was abusive, harmful to you and you decided to leave, could you just get over it? Or would it take time to find yourself again, figure out what went wrong, to make yourself strong again. Would you reach out to find help in healing and finding answers? Of course you would... just like we are.

Dear Truth After Disillusionment:

Please don't mistake my deep love for Mike, Cyndi, Jeff and Kim (as well as others in leadership at TP) for acceptance of the NAR, the Word-Faith Prosperity doctrines or for condoning teachings like the "covering", "double honor" or the like. I believe that the idea of covering sets up unhealthy, unquestionable authoritarian leadership that leads to a dangerous lack of accountability for those at the "top". Word-Faith Prosperity is simply not the message of the Gospel or the message of the Cross at all.

I was just listening to John Piper's video on the Prosperity Gospel and I agree whole heartedly with him. Some of his resources can be found at [desiringgod.org]. Just search "prosperity gospel" on his site and you will find great blog postings, articles, sermons and videos that refute the teachings of Prosperity Teachers

However, my love for them does NOT put me in their camp theologically anymore than their love for me puts them in mine. It is what it is - unapologetic love for them.

PLEASE please please - understand than my intent is not to stir up any more pain for anyone on the forum. I was just trying to reach out to some who I thought might want encouragement from a pastor. My heart was moved by Tell The Truth's post - I just wanted to encourage TTT and others who feel like there is not a place to safely worship. There is.

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ConcernedMarysvillePastor
Dear Truth After Disillusionment:

Please don't mistake my deep love for Mike, Cyndi, Jeff and Kim (as well as others in leadership at TP) for acceptance of the NAR, the Word-Faith Prosperity doctrines or for condoning teachings like the "covering", "double honor" or the like. I believe that the idea of covering sets up unhealthy, unquestionable authoritarian leadership that leads to a dangerous lack of accountability for those at the "top". Word-Faith Prosperity is simply not the message of the Gospel or the message of the Cross at all.

I was just listening to John Piper's video on the Prosperity Gospel and I agree whole heartedly with him. Some of his resources can be found at [desiringgod.org]. Just search "prosperity gospel" on his site and you will find great blog postings, articles, sermons and videos that refute the teachings of Prosperity Teachers

However, my love for them does NOT put me in their camp theologically anymore than their love for me puts them in mine. It is what it is - unapologetic love for them.

PLEASE please please - understand than my intent is not to stir up any more pain for anyone on the forum. I was just trying to reach out to some who I thought might want encouragement from a pastor. My heart was moved by Tell The Truth's post - I just wanted to encourage TTT and others who feel like there is not a place to safely worship. There is.

CMP,

Thank you for posting. Your concern for those who are discouraged by the church is appreciated.

I believe one reason why some are discouraged and leery of the church in your community is because of the deathly silence (all in the name of unity) in regards to the issues that have been raised on this forum thread as they relate to Turning Point Church in Marysville. You are...as best as I can recall...the first pastor from the area to dare venture into the discussion. And I would say please do not be surprised if some where down the road you are not accused of being divisive and attempting to create dissension within the "body" by the leadership of Turning Point Church. They seem eager to play the "unity" card any time people raise valid concerns and attempt to "speak the truth in love". Also, you should be aware, that your the intent of your posts more than likely will expose you to charges of trying to "steal sheep" from Turning Point Church. You will not be the first one accused of this by Turning Point Church nor will you be the last. Just dont be surprised.

Your concern for TTT and others is greatly appreciated. Your willingness to clearly state your rejection of Word of Faith, NAR, Prosperity Gospel, and Covering here on this forum is something we dont see pastors doing at all. I commend you for the risk you are incurring by being on this forum and for speaking out. Your genuine love for Mike, Cyndi, Jeff and Kim is also appreciated. Speaking for myself, I do not equate your love for them with acceptance of their teachings and their behaviors. Thank you, for your words are a reminder to all of us that, we too, are called to love.

There is a teaching at Turning Point Church based on the scripture out of Peter, "love covers a multitude of sins". As it has been explained to me, this teaching allows those in leadership to engage in destructive behaviors and these behaviors are overlooked and even covered for by others. So lets say I discover you are lying or stealing. Rather then turning you over to the appropriate authorities, I, instead, maintain silence and even engage in lying to "cover" for your sin. In doing so I am practicing love. And "love covers over a multitude of sin". When you look at the warped teaching of such a scripture, you can begin to see why some may be hesitant and perhaps even make a connection between your statement love for Mike and Cyndi with acceptance of their doctrines and teachings.

Thanks for your encouragement. I hope you will not be a stranger around the forum.

Thank you CMP for responding.

I think TPR said it best.

The reason I was unable to separate my feelings about love and not agreeing with their doctrine. Is that every person I have met who has questioned them has ended up being "divisive" and or a "wolf". If you confront them you are suddenly outcast and suddenly unity doesn't matter.

So my main point is that Unity with Christ does not equate with Unity with TPC, and this I fear is the state of most Marysville churches, they are aligning themselves with the false teachings of the church and totally ignoring the fact that TPC has crazed doctrines that are at best mildly destructive to the gospel. I can understand differences on eternal salvation, predestination, should women be pastors. Those are all non-essentials, but when you have other pastors preaching doctrine that is counter productive to the gospel, then aligning yourself with a lie and unity with them seems a lot less than what Christ had intended.

Thank God you have recognized this

CMP I would like to thank you for your post. It brought healing and the ability for me to start to think maybe the fear is inside of me. I may be seeing things that are not there, but I may be seeing things that are there. I am unclear. Your compassion touched my heart. While my past church was dead, our pastor was a shepherd and a wonderful man of God. He was a scholar and delivered the word of god powerfully. The problem with the church was it was a family church i.e. started by families over 40 years ago and no change was allowed. The Holy Spirit was stomped out. We have tried to go back there a few different times, but well, once you have experienced God in all His glory, nothing else will do. We have been to so many churches in Marysville we may have visited yours. Perhaps you could pm what church you pastor. I appreciate your pluck in coming on here and ministering to the brokenhearted. While we may become passionate and perhaps steamy in our posts, it comes from brokenheartedness and a fear of it happening again. My brokenheartedness isn't from a church, but from how we, man, cheat God out of His glory.