Truthtesty

Interesting you mentioned Amarillo. This is where I came from and was my first exposure to Thieme. The exposure was not the meeting in the 60's you mention but I WAS a friend of the family there that has been the most associated with Thieme over the years.

For the past few months I have been reading this post but last weekend finally registered to participate.

To perk:

I am just an "equal" member on this forum. Is there anything thing you would like to share? about your experiences with Thieme? or what you have read on this forum?

<sup>Previous address to Glenn:... Have you ever heard of the Fulbright memorandem? Entered into the congressional record in 1961? Entitled "Propaganda Activities of Military Personnel Directed at the Public" ? In which "extreme right radical speakers" were undermining the Kennedy adminisration? And propagandizing the public in schools, churches and other venues? In seminars, "freedom forums", alerts etc... In which Thieme spoke at the "Amarillo Life line Freedom Seminar"? on Nov. 8th at 2:00 PM? Thieme's speech was entitled "Communists' Greatest Weapon: Brainwashing".

Speaking of hanging military pictures on the wall, that's kinda wierd in a church, but not hanging a cross on the wall? that's even wierder.

So where do you think Thieme's loyalties were? The Word of God? or to the Pentagon?

Also, a Military program to propagandize the American public is a violation of the United States Constitution. Ironically, all soldiers swear an oath to defend the US Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Truthtesty</sup>

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2008 09:58AM by Truthtesty.

I happened upon this site send this link serendipitously while doing some research and though is something I would usually blow off, I was compelled to put forth some input.

From 1971 to 1976 I was a faithful and dedicated Jehovah Witness, but my father-in-law was the first Baptist. Almost every day we would argue using scriptural bullets and every night I would go to bed wondering why God who is supposed to be not ‘the author of confusion’ apparently was, since many of the things my father-in-law said were on target as were some of the things I said. Apparently the only answer was to intensely know the original languages which of course I determined to take.

About the same time (1978) my wife began to listen to R.B.Thieme on cassette tapes; coming from a background such as the Jehovah witnesses I found him to be most repulsive, but couldn't avoid the intensity of his exegetical pursuit and was especially fond (again coming from the Jehovah Witnesses) with his financial policy. Soon, I began to sneak tapes out and take them to work listening to as many as five takes a day. This is isn't too brag, this is to say that the issues I found so complex before were now nonissues and I continued to listen to him from the basics through his Ephesians series at which time I began to go to a local church that was doctrinal, because R.B.Thieme, the man many here claim as teaching that only he was the "right pastor teacher" instead said to my hearing at least, something to the effect that if you should find a pastor teacher in your area who will help you to grow spiritually, it is your duty to attend that local church. Let me see, what's the definition of a cult, isn't it to keep people from going anywhere else? And lo and behold, no one came from Berachah church to force me to listen to his tapes!

I am amazed that people are actually willing to condemn someone based on sensationalistic hearsay from something as stupid as the Internet! Indeed even if R.B.Thieme would be guilty of some kind of sin, please show me any human that you know who is not and I will show you the humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ! I can tell you up someone who was guilty of watching over the death of at least one Christian named Steven. I can tell you of someone who struggled in the flesh not doing those things he wanted to do but instead always doing what the sin inside of him would force (Romans 7:16-18). I can tell you this person also referred to himself as chief among sinners (1Timothy 1:15) and I can also tell you that you wouldn't dare not speak badly of him!

It is also amazing that people will think less of R.B.Thieme's teaching because they have suddenly become, debating the manuscripts from which he obtained his information. My masters is in biblical languages and I can also tell you that these types of debates have been going on for almost 2000 years and you are not going to help someone grow in Christ by thinking that you have something that no one else has discovered!

I have since come to know the man on a personal basis and can say that I have never met anyone as gracious, dedicated and faithful to the accurate teaching of the Word of God even though I do not agree with him on every point. It is safe to say that I don't agree with anyone and never will 100% else we would have need of only one teacher!

The recent messages be great R.B.Thieme with being "a cult" and I defy anyone to objectively tell me what a cult is as universally accepted by all, but having been in the Jehovah Witnesses, I do have some ideas that I except as a cult, though there are more:

1. Cults constantly are in your business wanting to know every detail of your days, whereas R.B.Thieme taught "spiritual autonomy" in which one didn't need to depend on the pastor for every decision.

2. Cults will propagate that they alone have the "corner on God" and I never heard R.B.Thieme insinuate such a thing.

3. Cults are always after your money, perhaps not at first, but they want it in as much quantity as possible once you have become part of their cult.



If you think I am "brainwashed" as you insinuate R.B.Thieme does I invite you to come to my house in Prospect Pennsylvania and see just how far I am from being brainwashed! As I said above, I don't agree with him on everything, but he opened the doors for literal grammatical historical study of the Scriptures I would not have had otherwise and is also why I and everyone I know who studies(d) under him thinks for themselves (acts 17:11). I also know upwards of 1000 people who have either consistently studied under him, or at least in part over the last 30 years and not one of them refers to themselves as a "Thiemite" as you call it. Of course there are always morons who are exceptions, but that isn't his fault!

It's also too bad that you have nothing better to do than to insult the very military that allows you to believe anyway you choose (though this may soon end) and instead, try to find fault in another believer!

A neighbor of mine who is an atheist and to whom I talk about the merits of being a Christian when the opportunity avails itself, has pointed out most poignantly that he doesn't "... want anything to do with a bunch of people who are constantly bickering over hairsplitting issues."

It is certainly apparent what he meant and makes me think of Romans 2:24.

I think that Christians have far more in common than they have in difference. What kind of witness are we being for Christ when all the world (kosmos) sees is Christians in constant debate? Isn't it better to focus what Christ did write, not on what (in our opinion) other Christians are doing wrong? Do you listen more objectively to a negative message, or to a positive message?

To Sonic_Oceab:


I too was involved with 2 other cults after the Thieme cult indoctrination. Thieme is/was a cult leader, but it is very subtle.

Thieme is considered a cult leader because he meets the cult criteria. Here's one for example: Right pastor.

Would you care to explain Theime's false doctrine of "right pastor"?

Masters? I will not hold that against you. but Masters or no, you will deal with the truth.


Truthtesty

To Sonic_Oceab :

No where in the Bible is Thieme's false cult doctrine of "right pastor".

The following is just part of what Dr. Wall said about Thieme. I suggest members open the Dr. Wall .pdf and search "right pastor", to see everything.

Part of Dr. Wall's dissertation: [www.texaswalls.org]

At the heart of Thieme's doctrine of right pastor is a questionable concept of church government. However, even if Baptist polity is accepted, Thieme has added some elements to the Baptistic view of the pastor which are clearly contrary to the biblical pattern and which produce some dangerous spiritual byproducts. We will examine Thieme's three basic distinctive concepts first; then we will list a series of dangerous implications of such a doctrine. Basic view. First, he has an unbalanced view of spiritual authority. Pastoral or elder leadership authority extends to the overseeing of the operation of church ministries, the maintenance of sound teaching in the local church and the protection of the believers' souls from false doctrine (I Pet. 5:2; Acts 20:28, 29; Heb. 13:17). It clearly involves leadership by example, not by lording over or "bullying" the flock (I Pet. 4:3; Heb. 13:7). Thieme has added to these clear biblical directions. He claims that he must be the final source of doctrine for all in his flock, and that the individual believer cannot study Scripture for himself. Not only does the Scripture not teach such a view of doctrinal learning, but it teaches the opposite. Spiritual growth, Paul says in Ephesians 4, involves two major ingredients that are contrary to the Thiemite doctrine: first, the gift of pastor-teacher is an equipping gift (verse 12, katartismon) designed to prepare all believers (the saints) for doing the job of ministering and edifying; second, maturing takes place as all the members of the body minister the truth of God to one another in love (verses 15, 16), not just one select, gifted person. Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary, there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3 John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock, forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ. Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes doctrine."

Third, he gives a false impression as to the believer's personal responsibility relative to testing the reliability of teachers and relative to his own personal study. For Thieme, once one joins a church fellowship, he is to unquestioningly respond to the pastor's authoritative teaching and rely on this pastor to do his study for him. This contradicts the biblical example of the Bereans (Acts 17:10-11) and the clear exhortations to test the doctrine of teachers (I Cor. 12:1-3; 1 John 4:1-3; Gal. 1: 6-1 0). It also contradicts the intent of the gift of pastor-teacher. According to Ephesians 4, it along with the gift of evangelist and the temporary gifts of apostle and prophet were primarily given to the church to prepare or equip the saints to minister and edify the body of Christ. It would seem strange indeed to think of one's being equipped to minister as a self-sustaining, contributing unit in the body of Christ, and yet unable to be selfsustaining in his own personal study of Scripture....

Fourth, the doctrine of right pastor produces an unhealthy situation for a local body. If the local body is exposed only to one spiritual gift, and that in the life of one personality, there will tend to be a one-sided mentality developed in the lives of the people.

Fifth, there are problems related to the basic humanity of the pastor. Every pastor-teacher is a sinner by nature.21 Furthermore, no pastor-teacher is perfect in his interpretation of Scripture. In view of the fact that the Scriptures indicate that an elder-pastor is to be an example to the flock (I Pet. 5:3), if a given flock is restricted to the authoritative teaching of one man in the body of Christ, there will be a large gap in the example lived before that particular flock. Also, Thieme's concept of authority discourages a critical evaluation of his teaching, so his students are not only limited by having only one pastoral example, but they must accept the errors which he teaches along with the truth without any functional means for discriminating between the two.

Sixth, as much as Thieme emphasizes the importance of growing spiritually, the application of the doctrine of right pastor actually has a retarding effect on growth. With the dependency upon one's right pastor, one is moved a step beyond "milk," but he isn't taught how to carve the meat and to chew it up. Students of Thieme who consistently apply the doctrine of right pastor easily get hooked on a "bottle of strained meat," that is, doctrine that has gone through the Thieme grid. The job of the pastor-teachers in the body is to prepare or equip the saints (Eph. 4:12). This means that the individual believer should be trained so that he can be self-sustaining both in the spiritual combat of life and in his ministry to the rest of the body. Thieme, on the other hand, discourages personal Bible study22 and ridicules anyone who attempts it unless he is a trained pastorteacher. 23

Seventh, an extensive emphasis on the doctrine of right pastor can produce a fear of leaving a local church. If Bible doctrine is defined in terms of that which one's pastor-teacher communicates, then leaving his authority, in the minds of many, is tantamount to leaving God or moving into reversionism. This is similar to the emotional slavery developed by the authoritative leaders of some of the newer, false cults.

Eighth, we have already noticed that this extreme view of the pastor can result in a warped view of separation. Biblically, separation is not related to the issue of a pastor-teacher. Separation is for extreme immorality, a rebellious spirit, the causing of division in the body, and doctrinal heresy. Students of Thieme who break relationships with friends and/or family over the Thieme issue are totally out of line biblically.24
Ninth, this concept of the pastor can produce a false sense of superiority in a pastor-teacher. It can also engender an independence that hinders interaction with others in the body and that makes his own personal spiritual growth difficult in many areas.

Cults claim 1 authoritative all-knowing unquestionable leader.

Also see:Ephesians 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."

That's everybody, not just everyone excepting the pastor.

Thessolonians 5:11 "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

Again that's everybody edifying one another.

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2008 11:00AM by Truthtesty.

The focus I say, is on the wrong issues and I have no time for a continued obsession with proving myself right or you wrong, but only Christ right.

In a time in which it is certain that Christianity is going to be (or is as we speak) to the point of becoming illegal, it just seems of no consequence. This country will soon want to be rid what we as a whole represent as the secular world is now seeing the whole of it as the threat, much like in the times of Diocletian and it won't be long before the protests already seen by the homosexual this past weekend, will sprout into an outright persecution. I think it is therefore paramount to return to promoting Christ and stop allowing unbelievers room to accuse us by noticing that we bicker more than anyone else (Titus 3:9 et al.)

My questions are: how does this promote Christ? How does constant debate among the brethren edify the body? Is this trying to prove what Christ did right, or what R.B. Thieme did wrong?




P.S. (the name should be Sonic_Ocean not Oceab, sorry about the typo)

Sonic_Ocean,

I could not agree with you more. The witness of most Christians to the unbelieving world today is terrible. I suppose that we have always fought amongst ourselves but at least it used to be over important doctrines. Now we act like unbelievers with a theological vocabulary.

Glen_W:

Please refrain from personal attacks and professions of faith.

The specific subject here is Thieme.

rrmoderator,

You misunderstood my comment. I did in no way attack a profession of faith. I did attempt to show my distatste for Christians who make ad hominem attacks against other Christians. Ad hominem is not a profession of faith.

To the Forum:

Ocean quote: The focus I say, is on the wrong issues and I have no time for a continued obsession with proving myself right or you wrong, but only Christ right.

Truthtesty: Is that so? Also, prove where you proved me wrong. I would hardly call 1 post a "continued obseesion". Unless that's a "freudian slip" and you are actually and old thiemite poster with a new name.

Ocean: In a time in which it is certain that Christianity is going to be (or is as we speak) to the point of becoming illegal, it just seems of no consequence. This country will soon want to be rid what we as a whole represent as the secular world is now seeing the whole of it as the threat, much like in the times of Diocletian and it won't be long before the protests already seen by the homosexual this past weekend, will sprout into an outright persecution. I think it is therefore paramount to return to promoting Christ and stop allowing unbelievers room to accuse us by noticing that we bicker more than anyone else (Titus 3:9 et al.)

Truthtesty: Ye of little faith. So what if Christianity is outlawed? Really Was Christianity the official religion of Rome when Jesus walked the earth? God is in control, not man. Get thet through your head. You are concerned about an image of Christianity, not the truth of what the Bible says. I suppose with your rationalization, you could justify the Catholic Church being quiet about the thousands of molestations that occured, because it would hurt thier image. Which it did. It's true the Catholic Church is falling apart right now.

Ocean: My questions are: how does this promote Christ?

Truthtesty: truth.

Ocean: How does constant debate among the brethren edify the body?

Truthtesty: How does it not? Here's an example of how it does...

Here's a Christian who believes this forum helped them. [forum.culteducation.com]
UPGRAYEDD "quote: I too will bow out now as I feel I am only beginning my true study of God's Word..

Clearing up false doctrine has every thing to do with edifying the Body.

As for image? that you love? This forum centers on truth, not "false appearances".

Ocean: Is this trying to prove what Christ did right, or what R.B. Thieme did wrong?

Truthtesty: Both.

G-d is in control, You are just going to have to learn to trust G-d, not man. Do not confuse the perfect authority of G-d, with Thieme's corrupt authority(as Thieme taught). Spiritual maturity is with G-d's perfect authority, not Thieme's corrupt authority.

Truthtesty



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2008 09:19AM by Truthtesty.