Ifellaway, refresh your browser - we must've been posting at the same time and I seem to have 'stolen' the post just before the one you just made.. so you can "read all about it" if you refresh your browser and look above your recent post.

PS sorry, will try not to mention the BP word again - wouldn't want to be the cause of your backsliding! :-)

I can't say when the women wearing hats rule was dropped since it was still well in force when I left the church! :-)
xx

Sorry E.Ray, I meant to say, don't remember grace really, but, truthfully I do recall Jennifer as approachable and patient. I actually don't remember being on the receiving end of her discernment.
Was pretty young though and can't speak for others. Obviously I wasn't aware of much more than I needed to be.
Sure there were times we acted up and she would look at the floor. We read this as time to behave. She was a headteacher after all. But, like I have said, I do not doubt anyone's opinions or accounts here, and many would have to honestly tell you different about JJ. I never myself felt mistreated by her. Which actually makes it harder to hear how some have been ignored by her. I originally came here to defend the outrageous claims against my childhood curch leaders. Then I began to look at the bigger picture and realise some horrible truths. I'm still struggling to reconcile fond memories that hid harsh practices.
Us young uns thought that the Glasgow, Greenock, Cumbernauld etc leaders were just hot air and exhibitionists and frankly full of bs. I can't remember who, but someone at camp, who was a respected member of our group, told me to not listen too much to them as they were "a bit rad". Very diplomatically put..
Cbarb, I see you've answered my question above. For some reason I didn't see that post when I began writing.
Going to read now..
Ifellaway

After reading this I am shocked at the nerve she has now to tell people they should not expect to get married! Clearly she expected to very much after setting her sights on someone..what disgraceful behaviour. This is also a sign of her questioning the leaders if they approved of the first couple like you said, cbarb, and she should have immediately gone for deliverance ministry!

Cbarb, well that is a sad story of duplicity and betrayal. Interesting too, but a good example of smc at its finest.
Heehee, it's not my browser. I visit here from a tiny, weak but effective machine. Paranoid about when they start to fight dirty. Cyberwarfare is a possibility, this machine is expendable. My cobbled Frankensteined monster however, is primed, target-ready and unconnected, also expendable but any attack is logged, traceable and can be used in evidence legally. "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you" etc. :)
Caught up now, thanks!
Anyway, some chores don't seem to be doing themselves, soooo...
Have a good weekend and, hey, talk about great minds thinking alike, that was funny.
Take care.x

Interesting reading on the forum.

Lots of you are able to go into the finer details of things because you know the people concerned or were SMC members for a certain time, or still are.

(I came into contact with SMC and their teaching through a third person who was/is herself an avid follower. I went to 1 conference and that was enough!!)

I was just wanting to say that what stands out again and again besides the individual instances of "spiritual abuse" is the fact that (in my opinion) they present a wrong view of God, they lead people astray , in my heart i didnt percieve Him like they were presenting Him.
I remember thinking i could get closer to God through them ,by reading copious amounts of their books , listening to their tapes etc, but trying to put their so called standards of holiness into practice just left me feeling empty and puzzled.
The thought process goes like this :- " God isnt the one in error , they cant be either, because they seem to be preaching the truth , so that leaves me
I must be getting it wrong somewhere , or i'm just not good enough , or i must try harder .... Or the classic,... i must have a demon... or be lesbian. "

Does that about sum it up sisters ?

I suspect that the over-concentration by the leadership on the supposed lesbian tendancies of the female population of SMC is to be expected seeing as the leadership are largely female singles.

The same phenomena would be apparent if the leaders were mostly male singles with a tendancy to teach that singleness was the higher calling . There would then be accusations of homosexuality amongst the men.

Accusations of this sort often come from the ones who actually struggle with it themselves, but dont admit it, they just see the problem in other people.

Having said that, if you take into account the level of sexual frustration created with the singleness preaching , and the discouragement and control of opposite sex relationships , then add the so-called discerning of demons in every corner , its perfectly normal to have a degree of sexual orientation confusion .

However you explain i, its unhealthy and unhelpfull .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2013 05:14PM by clare.

Hi Clare, can I be the first to welcome you to our little discussion (99 pages of it!!) ? Welcome!
I still don't really understand the emphasis on leading women. and no I don't have a problem with girls (or boys) telling me what to do.
Nor do I care if people are homo, hetero or "internally struggling" ... I do have grave reservations about the way sexualization is dealt with in smc. I mean, just look around, most churches are or have accepted homosexual members, some churches are now happy to ordain their ministers, regardless of orientation. Ultimately this is just professionalism and keeping up with the times.
Whether or not you believe in God, a god, or not; we have to reproduce as a species. I've contributed my seed to the human race and that is enough of that. I now look after others' kids, because it is sad but there are surplus children compared to caring, responsible adults.
So it is unsettling to see so many people steered away from human parterships.
And yes I do believe we are just (higher) animals, so we have urges and tendencies. Mostly these are allowed.
Sex aside, we are allowed to have companions in life to share experiences with. Suppression just doesn't work. If you have to be alone against your will, something will give.
I don't want to say that God is NOT enough, but I believe pretty much that. OK, if you're stuck on the space station and feeling a tad isolated from humanity, then you can find comfort and company, because God is everywhere. But on a permant basis, I don't think we are designed to go it alone. But this is perhaps where insulation against society starts.
And yes Clare I totally agreee the teaching is all wrong. Perfection is unattainable (good to aim for!) and when you fall short of the standards asked for in smc, how can you get help with your despair? It tarnishes all religion, in my opinion.
How good for you that you only attended one "conference" and realised quickly to get away. Is your friend still happy in there, do you know? Or are you no longer in touch...because this would be the norm.?
Anyway, unhealthy, one way or another. Thanks for your observations, anyone anything to expand on that?
Regards, Ifellaway

I'm sorry to go off topic but this BBC documentary on child witch abuse in Congo and other parts of Africa
simply reinforces my revulsion with pentecostals emphasis on exorcism and witch hunting.

And thew SMC has been on the forefront of this.

Pentecostals who support western mega-tent revivalist preachers who target Africa are culpable here. For decades they have been incessantly filling the minds of Africans with nonsense like this. Eager to see converts
and oblivious or unwilling to deal with the effect western preachers have in countries that are superstitious and gullible to a degree we in the west simply are not used to.

And the common refrain is that this tendency to superstition and unquestioning belief in their pastors is to be welcomed. These africans are so much more "full of faith" than us = and so on.

People here have experienced a milder version of the harm that rabid emphasis on exorcism has had on SMC members. See here what happens when people take the bible literally and adapt western pentecostalism.


[www.bbc.co.uk]

Quote
Ifellaway
Sorry E.Ray, I meant to say, don't remember grace really, but, truthfully I do recall Jennifer as approachable and patient. I actually don't remember being on the receiving end of her discernment.

...

Which actually makes it harder to hear how some have been ignored by her. I originally came here to defend the outrageous claims against my childhood curch leaders. Then I began to look at the bigger picture and realise some horrible truths. I'm still struggling to reconcile fond memories that hid harsh practices.

Ifellaway

In spite of all the criticism here (including much from me) I wouldn’t disagree with this. I think Jennifer and Grace were actually both quite kind and sincere people. The problem is, as Mr Black used to say, you can be sincerely wrong.

There is now considerable evidence that people have been hurt and damaged by the organisation and, assuming the leaders do still have a conscience, this now puts them in a difficult position. Until this forum and latigo came online, they could to some extent reconcile any natural kindness with the overall impact the organisation was having by simply pretending it wasn’t happening. That is no longer a credible position however, and I have high hopes that OSCR will even now be holding them to account for their lack of any kind of support for those in their care.

Running away from problems because the issues are too difficult or because the leaders have a calling to look after the 99 that remain rather than the one that has wandered off is of course totally unscriptural. On a practical level it is now also clear that it doesn’t work, and the 99 rapidly become 98, them 97…

So, just like the rest of us, the leaders have a choice to make. Are the people on this forum some lower form of life that can be pushed aside and trampled over, or are they people who deserve care and compassion? And what about those still in the congregations? Do you (the leaders) know how many of the congregation are actually on anti-depressants at the moment? Might that just be quite important, especially if it is twice the national percentage, as I suspect it is in at least one congregation? Is that a public benefit that deserves charitable status? Should you not care about these people?

Grace, Jennifer and others - you know the answer to these questions. You do have a conscience that, underneath it all, knows that you cannot walk away from that responsibility. The message you preach is not just that we will all see God one day and be caught up in wonder, it is also that we will one day have to stand before God and account for our actions.

It seems to me that, if you leaders really believe that, you will turn to God now, not so that you can be ‘caught up in wonder’ and forget about all the problems that have been caused, but to ask to see your own actions through His eyes. According to your own doctrine, you will all do this one day – I would have thought you would be better to do so in this life!

As things stand, I know that there are things that will be a blot on leader’s consciences on that day. Mr Black also knew that and admitted it in private. His argument was that the good outweighed the bad (quoting some verse about much being forgiven if you lead a soul to repentance of something like that) but even he admitted there were things that would be in the conscience of leaders on that day. If many lives were being transformed in a positive way, perhaps being healed of depression rather than being driven to it, the argument about sins being covered up by bringing others to repentance might work, but that does not seem to be what is happening here.

To me, the bottom line has always been the same. To know there are things that are wrong and do nothing about them is (as Archbishop Laud said some time ago) unconscionable.

So, if The Petitor correctly recalls a private conversation with Mr Black, the latter believed that any"bad" would be offset by "good" ie having led a soul to repentance. I wonder what "things " he had in mind? Sounds a bit arrogant and deluded to me and invites a shopping list approach to sin and misconduct which is paid for with souls as currency. The mercy and grace of God are freely given, not earned.

As I understand it, teachers and leaders have a greater responsibility and will be held accountable for any damage which they themselves have inflicted. Certain parts 2 Peter 2 come to mind.

However I don't think we should presume that leaders are necessarily aware of blots on their consciences. Their supreme belief that they are right and that God is on their side is likely to make it difficult for them to believe and understand the hurts and damage aired on this forum let alone have the capacity to respond.

Let's not underestimate the protective power of self-delusion, especially when it is reinforced by others with a similar mindset.

In response to E.Ray's comment:
"And I am wondering as well what peoples opinions of Grace and Jennifer are? I found them to be much nicer people though ok only experienced them at camps."

Grace is the main leader of SMC now, since the death of her sister, Mary Black, in 2004. So, as such, she has, supposedly, authority over the other church leaders. She sits and listens to the other leaders preaching when they take a turn on Saturday nights or at Camps. She is well aware of what they are saying publicly including Diana R pointing out people's sins in public and identifying the individual concerned in a public meeting. She hears the outrageous things spoken publicly by DR and by A. Speirs, the Glasgow leader (see The Humiliation Sermon on Latigo site). Grace has been, and I'm sure still is, involved and complicit in any banning of an individual from the church. She decides whether someone is allowed to come back to a meeting or a Camp. The other leaders consult her about such matters and about other church-related matters and church discipline. Things about church people are reported to her by the other leaders and also by other church members, and she makes the final decision about what is to be done. She discourages SMC members from being involved at other christian events and activities outwith SMC. I have experience of these things, but if you haven't, then you won't be aware it's going on.

What I am saying is, don't be deceived by a seemingly nicer, gentler exterior, and think that some leaders are OK and others blatantly not. No, they all work together and support one another. As for J.Jack, I know she has hurt some men in particular, by refusing to speak to them or converse with them whilst at church or elsewhere, because in her opinion, they weren't holy enough, loyal enough or were too outspoken. Men should find encouragement and support in a church, not shunning and ignoring because they happen to have asked questions.
All of the current leaders were trained by Miss Taylor and Hugh Black and therefore, all sing from the same song-sheet (literally!).

As The Petitor and A. Laud have already said, the fact that the leaders, including Grace Gault, know and hear that wrongs are being committed and do nothing about it, but just sit and let them continue, and don't deal with the other leaders when their behaviour is hurtful and damaging, it means they and she are complicit in it and are in agreement with it. So they're guilty of it too.