Moderators, I have a question.
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: March 06, 2011 02:29AM
Would the following statements made by Mr. Wish be considered personal attack? Or would you at least address how over the line they are?
So that I understand, is it common practice on this forum to make psychological evaluations that include someone's fitness to raise their children based on less then a dozen interactions on an internet forum? The reason I have to ask is he claims to be speaking for "We".
"We" have not found many red flags for transparency. His claim to no transparency was based SOLELY on the issue of anonymous moderators. And that we don't plaster our financial information everywhere. He has not provided ANY PROOF at all of any "thought reform". And as Mr. Ross and Corboy have pointed out they can find NO EVIDENCE of all these "complaints of abuse". Again, KICKING PEOPLE OFF AN INTERNET FORUM IS NOT CULT ABUSE.
There he goes speaking for "We". Again. The reason I find this concerning is that some of the trolls who harass TZM are using this forum and the two threads about this topic as proof that we are a cult. This person is claiming to speak for "We" and is therefore insinuating Mr. Ross and Corboy and the other users here who did not mysteriously arrive a while ago.
So who is "We"?
OK, so now this marks several various claims that I need to go to an institution, and that I should not be allowed to see my children until I do so. Throughout this debate he stated that the only way that I could avoid this is if I apologized to him and re-instated him on the forums. And that all of our anonymous moderators need to come forward and remove themselves.
He issues me an ultimatim. And if I fail to do what he wants which was based on false accusations in the first place, TZM will continue to be an abusive cult.
Now, for some final perspective, let us look at his post on the TZM forum that started all of this.
I submit again to the moderators of this forum that it is clear to me that this person is likely motivated in the same way that Prometheus Pan was. He has now gone on to state that I am dangerous, to myself, and the world, and apparently my children.
The only proof of any abuse he has offered is that he was "abused" on a forum. And that we have anonymous moderators.
He makes several references to "We." hoping he can name drop Rick Ross and the users of this forum towards his agenda.
When will this stop?
Quote
DavidWish
Make no mistake about it. We are not associating your group by any casually chosen definition of the word “cult”. In your case, the word is abuse. Pure and simple. Yes, your group is a cult, but is a “certain” kind of one. An “abusive” one with thought reform. So, not let us mix words here. I say, “you have chosen” or “can somehow do not understand”, and that you are a danger to the yourself and the human race. Is that clear enough for you? I do not believe you should even see your children until you get help. Is that better? Go to the hospital and get some help.
So that I understand, is it common practice on this forum to make psychological evaluations that include someone's fitness to raise their children based on less then a dozen interactions on an internet forum? The reason I have to ask is he claims to be speaking for "We".
Quote
David
We are being careful Neil.
Quote
David Wish
He is saying here, what? That he find’s Robert Jay Lifton’s test about, “thought reform”, “problematic”. He must either address the original question or he is incapable of addressing the question. I believe he is incapable of addressing the question and needs some help. I am not calling him crazy, but I am not saying the help he can, or may get, will help him. I am saying everyone is worth a shot at getting better. He appears to me to be incapable of seeing that what we are concerned about is strictly abuse, thought reform and other kinds of abuse, and not semantics. He asks for specifics and then cannot maintain their value and the answer provided. As result, he lies again and again. He talks at people, instead of with people.
Quote
David Wish
We are worried that TZM is deploying an abusive tactic called thought reform. We are not talking about all the other forums with moderators out there. We realize some of the forums that have anonymous moderators are indeed abusive cults and some are not. We realize that after excessive complaints and facts are presented concerning “abuse”, this is a point where complete transparency must occur. As we dug deeper, we found many red flags on transparency within this group concerning finances, donations, words of no leaders and the truth that there are leaders and directors.
"We" have not found many red flags for transparency. His claim to no transparency was based SOLELY on the issue of anonymous moderators. And that we don't plaster our financial information everywhere. He has not provided ANY PROOF at all of any "thought reform". And as Mr. Ross and Corboy have pointed out they can find NO EVIDENCE of all these "complaints of abuse". Again, KICKING PEOPLE OFF AN INTERNET FORUM IS NOT CULT ABUSE.
Quote
David Wish
All we are doing is following guidelines of a professional dealing with the abuse of people’s minds, through thought reform. The test was simple.
There he goes speaking for "We". Again. The reason I find this concerning is that some of the trolls who harass TZM are using this forum and the two threads about this topic as proof that we are a cult. This person is claiming to speak for "We" and is therefore insinuating Mr. Ross and Corboy and the other users here who did not mysteriously arrive a while ago.
Quote
David Wish
Understand this Neil
You and TZM failed the test.
Quote
rrmoderator
There are no specific "cult" complaints about TZM that have come to my attention, other than the claims being made at this message board by people banned from your discussion board.
Quote
corboy
Regarding ZM, I have not yet found any reliable descriptions or complaints that ZM fits the criteria given by Robert J Lifton, the psychiatrist whose studies represent the standard for assessing these matters.
So who is "We"?
Quote
David Wish
I quoted you saying you don’t like the test, but I do not care if you do.
Your choices are lying and brainwashing. That means you need help and that no one should listen to anything you have to say until you have been given a clean bill of health.
Pack your bags and go to the hospital. They will try to help you. I caution you. As soon as some daddy out there looses his little girl to your BS, he may come knocking if he sees you refused to get help. And then what? Another Waco?
You cannot go around messing with people’s heads after it is has been proven you are. People may not tolerate it and act responsibly and within the law when they see how callously you dismiss messing people’s heads.
You are done.
Understand your position.
You may not lead anyone, but yourself right to a doctor.
OK, so now this marks several various claims that I need to go to an institution, and that I should not be allowed to see my children until I do so. Throughout this debate he stated that the only way that I could avoid this is if I apologized to him and re-instated him on the forums. And that all of our anonymous moderators need to come forward and remove themselves.
Quote
David Wish
You have no idea what I have seen in the abuse of others in abusive cultist environments. Perhaps I have difficulty in conveying that to you. I can tell that I have spent years talking with people what were in cults and seen first hand the damage they cause to self-esteem, creativity, free though and expression and the basic trampling of the human spirit. The effects are devastating and in many cases, cause long lasting injuries.
The bullshit stops here.
1. Restore the deleted post showing anonymous direction being deceptive.
2. Apologize, with a detailed explanation, the wrong doing.
3. Make the necessary corrections for all members to be “inoculated” from an abusive cultist environment within TZM.
Fail to do so and TZM will continue to be an abusive cult.
He issues me an ultimatim. And if I fail to do what he wants which was based on false accusations in the first place, TZM will continue to be an abusive cult.
Now, for some final perspective, let us look at his post on the TZM forum that started all of this.
Quote
David Wish
As I have been looking into The Zeitgeist Movement on these message boards, I have come across multiple issues that indicate that this group has already spiraled into a cult mentally. The picture attached shows that the moderators of this board are unnamed. This is a lack of transparently. Hence, lying, and is proof that TZM is now a cult. If any of you really care about the genuine ideals behind this movement, the first thing that needs to happen is transparently. Nothing can be built on lies and deception. That means that all posts modded by these anonymous moderators, must be corrected to show who is actually censoring posts, banning users, etc. It also requires that who ever decided to make these moderator accounts must apologize and remove themselves promptly from any decision making. Failure to do so makes The Zeitgeist Movement a cult, with all the terrible abusive things that go along with it.
It’s time to wake up everyone. Having good ideas does not protect any organization from self imploding, and more importantly, becoming abusive to its own members.
There are rules that must be met in order for an organization to be a cult. TZM has already fallen into this hole. Quick, honest, transparent changes must occur or many will suffer, along with their families. Those not making these changes immediately are in fact, abusers of the human mind.
In addition to the requirements above, all financials for TZM must be posted publicly or again, it’s a cult. There must be a system in place, for removing abusive and misguided leaders, moderators, or any other person in a position to dictate policy. None of these conditions have been met to my best understanding. No one should be anonymous in a position of decision making.
Do you people really want to destroy lives with a good cause? It's now your choice. It is time to put down the TZM reading materials and learn what a cult really is, and how to identify it, and the people within it, that are clearly having difficulty in proper honest communication.
I suggest you all visit [culteducation.com] and spend the next two days reading cult education materials, or you are all doomed, to cause, and be the victims, of terrible human damage. These are facts, not opinions. TZM is now factually a cult. Please understand that, or many innocent people are going to get hurt.
It’s time to clean up this mess of abusing of people.
The people who made this decision to hide themselves need to admit who they really are and step down immediately.
I submit again to the moderators of this forum that it is clear to me that this person is likely motivated in the same way that Prometheus Pan was. He has now gone on to state that I am dangerous, to myself, and the world, and apparently my children.
The only proof of any abuse he has offered is that he was "abused" on a forum. And that we have anonymous moderators.
He makes several references to "We." hoping he can name drop Rick Ross and the users of this forum towards his agenda.
When will this stop?
Re: Moderators, I have a question.
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 06, 2011 09:33AM
To whom it may concern;
The rules exclude personal attacks, e.g. making negative comments about a message board member's personal and family life would fit within that category.
Please stop insulting each other personally, which is against the rules.
Stick to the topic, which is TZM.
Respond to the points made about TZM, not about each other personally.
The rules exclude personal attacks, e.g. making negative comments about a message board member's personal and family life would fit within that category.
Please stop insulting each other personally, which is against the rules.
Stick to the topic, which is TZM.
Respond to the points made about TZM, not about each other personally.
Re: Moderators, I have a question.
Posted by:
Prometheuspan
()
Date: March 07, 2011 10:04AM
Quote
As result, he lies again and again. He talks at people, instead of with people.
This is not an ad hom, this is an observation of fact.
VTV does lie, again and again, and evades through deception, by not answering your points.
Quote
vtv
"We" have not found many red flags for transparency. His claim to no transparency was based SOLELY on the issue of anonymous moderators.
No, tzm is no ttransparent 20 different ways. Just to cover our own interaction you delteted over a dozen threads. Just to cover up putting jaques on a pedastal you deleted at least another dozen.
Quote
vtv
And that we don't plaster our financial information everywhere. He has not provided ANY PROOF at all of any "thought reform".
We have posted proof, again, vtv just pretends that we have not.
Quote
vtv
And as Mr. Ross and Corboy have pointed out they can find NO EVIDENCE of all these "complaints of abuse". Again, KICKING PEOPLE OFF AN INTERNET FORUM IS NOT CULT ABUSE.
Again, being kicked out under the conditions which you do it under is abusive.
And yes, it is a abusive because of being a cult, so it is cult abuse.
Quote
vtv
OK, so now this marks several various claims that I need to go to an institution, and that I should not be allowed to see my children until I do so. Throughout this debate he stated that the only way that I could avoid this is if I apologized to him and re-instated him on the forums. And that all of our anonymous moderators need to come forward and remove themselves.
This is not hard to understand, we are willing to help you this is not a black and white battle for us we understand you are also a victim.
Quote
vtv
He issues me an ultimatim. And if I fail to do what he wants which was based on false accusations in the first place, TZM will continue to be an abusive cult.
No, you are spinning our offer to help you in reverse. TZM is a cult, we are willing to help. Until you take out help, and make real changes, thats an absolute you can't escape from.
Now, for some final perspective, let us look at his post on the TZM forum that started all of this.
Quote
vtv
I submit again to the moderators of this forum that it is clear to me that this person is likely motivated in the same way that Prometheus Pan was.
I submit that any attempt to construe my motivations as being anything is in fact an ad hom, and that any attempt to construe davids motivations as anything is also an af hom.
My motivations are actually impeccable. I am in service to humanity and potentially in service to TZM as soon as they stop being a cult.
VTV attacking my motives or pretending like this is a set or implicit understood thing is a ver ysly veiled ad hom.
Quote
vtv
He has now gone on to state that I am dangerous, to myself, and the world, and apparently my children.
All of which is true.
Quote
vtv
The only proof of any abuse he has offered is that he was "abused" on a forum.
No, we have gone over numerous issues vtv is conflating and attempting to say pretend that proofs have not arrived, this is actually again another veiled ad hom.
Quote
vtv
And that we have anonymous moderators.
He makes several references to "We." hoping he can name drop Rick Ross and the users of this forum towards his agenda.
Another veiled ad hom.
This is the truth. TVP/ TZM is a cult and it is abusive. I'm not motivated by anything other than compassion and concern for them and their victims and by a real and genuine need to see humanity work on and solve its problems in a real way instead of running away from them into violence and trying to avoid responsibility by giving totalitarian control to robots.
Everything about TZM once you peel back the layers of lies and spin is dangerous, disgusting, and evil, including how they use veiled ad homs to invalidate other people and make false claims about other peopels emotional states, motivations, and intentions. VTV is spinning what people say, evading, and distorting. I think that this proves rather well that hes actually involved in cogntive dissonance and hypnotically following the ideology which says the means are justified by the ends.
Formal Conversational logic tells us its not an ad hominem when its both true and relevant. Is me pointing out that VTV is spinning and distorting what people say an ad hom?
Is me pointing out that hes actually here only stacking a list of veiled ad homs an ad hom?
VTV is a master of the ad hom double standard, his ad homs since hes in charge or since hes veiling them so clevah are all right. Yours are of course illegal ad homs.
I'd like to know. Will this behavior of his be addressed?
Re: Moderators, I have a question.
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: March 07, 2011 11:12PM
Quote
I said
He has now gone on to state that I am dangerous, to myself, and the world, and apparently my children.
Quote
Prometheus
All of which is true.
Moderators, please consider the above statement a violation of the mandate just laid down to cease personal attacks.
Re: Moderators, I have a question.
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 07, 2011 11:25PM
Personal attacks are prohibited by the rules.
If Prometheus continues he will be banned from this message board.
Final warning.
If Prometheus continues he will be banned from this message board.
Final warning.
Re: Moderators, I have a question.
Posted by:
Prometheuspan
()
Date: March 08, 2011 07:27AM
And what about VTVs pages and pages of ad homs?
Is he warned?
I'm as stated leaving to put together a presentation that will i think be dutiful and respectful to this forum.
In the meantime, I will again state that VTV is a chronic ad hom junkie, this is not an ad hom this is a simple fact.
Will you aid him in creating and enforcing his ad hom double standard?
Will you allow him to make everyone elses ad homs illegal but ignore his because he veils them or pretends that they are statements of fact?
Any ad hom count shows that vtv has used easily as many "ad homs" as me, david, and james put together.
(esp if you go by formal logic, which would render those points merely true facts about the cult or vtv, not personal attacks.)
But I'm the one getting a "final" warning?
Seems a bit off to me.
[www.facebook.com]
If anybody wants to continue this discussion before i come back with a presentation and case, please by all means join the group that has formed in order to create that formal presentation and case. WE have 15 members and should grow very quickly, there are thousands of people active in the world who are against the tzm cult.
Is he warned?
I'm as stated leaving to put together a presentation that will i think be dutiful and respectful to this forum.
In the meantime, I will again state that VTV is a chronic ad hom junkie, this is not an ad hom this is a simple fact.
Will you aid him in creating and enforcing his ad hom double standard?
Will you allow him to make everyone elses ad homs illegal but ignore his because he veils them or pretends that they are statements of fact?
Any ad hom count shows that vtv has used easily as many "ad homs" as me, david, and james put together.
(esp if you go by formal logic, which would render those points merely true facts about the cult or vtv, not personal attacks.)
But I'm the one getting a "final" warning?
Seems a bit off to me.
[www.facebook.com]
If anybody wants to continue this discussion before i come back with a presentation and case, please by all means join the group that has formed in order to create that formal presentation and case. WE have 15 members and should grow very quickly, there are thousands of people active in the world who are against the tzm cult.
Re: Moderators, I have a question.
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 08, 2011 07:47AM
To whom it may concern:
Everyone on this thread has been warned.
No personal attacks against members of this board.
This type of petty quibbling will get you banned.
First your posts will not be approved and deleted.
Repeated similar posts will effectively terminate your membership here.
No more warnings to anyone on this thread will be given.
Everyone on this thread has been warned.
No personal attacks against members of this board.
This type of petty quibbling will get you banned.
First your posts will not be approved and deleted.
Repeated similar posts will effectively terminate your membership here.
No more warnings to anyone on this thread will be given.
Re: Moderators, I have a question.
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: March 08, 2011 08:48AM
rrmoderator is correct.
Please don't bore us (me, anyway) with your back-and-forth-wars that will clearly get BOTH of you banned? I have seen this so many times before. Watch yourselves.
Why don't you use the private message system if you wish to spar with each other?
I am trying to learn about this movement which seems to me to be a "Destini-lite", sans channeling Hitler, etc.
Is this anything more than a political movement, aligned with LaRouche espousing the overthrow of the world and getting rid of the "nasty, evil, unfair" monetary system that has been in existence since the first human community came together?
Is a political movement that doesn't seem to have a clearly defined "cult-of-personality" aspect even a valid topic for this site?
Seems like a silly "movement" to me. This is my impression, I am not maligning anyone of you. You both clearly have more passion than I do about this topic.
Lucky me. Duh! Winning!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2011 08:50AM by Sparky.
Please don't bore us (me, anyway) with your back-and-forth-wars that will clearly get BOTH of you banned? I have seen this so many times before. Watch yourselves.
Why don't you use the private message system if you wish to spar with each other?
I am trying to learn about this movement which seems to me to be a "Destini-lite", sans channeling Hitler, etc.
Is this anything more than a political movement, aligned with LaRouche espousing the overthrow of the world and getting rid of the "nasty, evil, unfair" monetary system that has been in existence since the first human community came together?
Is a political movement that doesn't seem to have a clearly defined "cult-of-personality" aspect even a valid topic for this site?
Seems like a silly "movement" to me. This is my impression, I am not maligning anyone of you. You both clearly have more passion than I do about this topic.
Lucky me. Duh! Winning!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2011 08:50AM by Sparky.
Re: Moderators, I have a question.
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: March 08, 2011 10:33AM
Yes, just focus on analyzing the GROUP, and not those who are criticizing the group.
Unless of course, the person wants to derail the person criticizing the group, with personal attacks, to deflect from the bad behavior of the group!
Unless of course, the person wants to derail the person criticizing the group, with personal attacks, to deflect from the bad behavior of the group!
Re: Moderators, I have a question.
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: March 08, 2011 11:36PM
I have yet to tell anyone they should not be allowed to see their children.
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