yaayyeeee!!!!!
I always cheer where i see a rational secular humanist response, so that's about once a quarter!
;-)

We can certainly be Good without God.
We can be ethical without the God theory.
I am an Atheist myself, and use scientific methods, and philosophical methods, and Cognitive Therapy and Cognitive Science, etc, to TRY to make sense of things.

But i do think that each person has the right to think through these complex personal issues to the best of their ability, and IN THEIR OWN WAY, on their own timescale.

So if people are trying out new ideas, i think that is great.
I would just caution, of course, to not repeat similar patterns from the past. That is, looking for a Guru with all the answers, or Absolutist Doctrines, and all of the cultic traps.

But these core beliefs about God and Religion are actually very complex and personal. My belief in God died over 10 years ago, and i feel totally fine about it.
I saw the genius physicist Richard Feynman on tape the other day, and he said he felt just fine NOT having all the answers to the Universe. That's what it is like as an Atheist. Its just admitting that YOU DON'T KNOW, but you still try to continue learning and questioning.

Its OK to not know everything about the universe.
Its ok to doubt.
Its ok to trust our own thinking.
Its ok to reject our religion for a while.

The only thing i would suggest is for people to learn the skills of Critical Thinking.
Without this, we can fall into real mental traps.
Even of you believe in God, or any type of religion, you can still get some training in Critical Thinking and Skeptical and Scientific thinking and methods, and apply it in many areas of life, including health, psychology, therapy, philosophy, ethics, politics, and even comparative religion, etc.

[www.skepdic.com]


There is no one easier to fool than ourselves.
Critical Thinking is a powerful mental discipline, and it can truly enrich our lives.
Its also a beautiful Cult Buster.

Coz

Quote
Leopardgirl
I am moving more and more away from any spiritual beliefs towards a sort of rational secular humanism, an ethic based on the principles of kindness, mutual support of our fellow humans, civic and environmental responsibilty, and respect for each individual's freedom to choose the life that is best for them. You don't need to believe in God or be "spiritual" to believe in these things. More and more all I see is the harm people inflict on one another in the name God, or Bhudda, or The Source, or the The Goddess, or Wicca, or the Eradication of The Ego, or whatever else you want to call it. And I have been thinking alot about how much abjecation of personal responsibility goes on in the service of the belief in God. I find it really disturbing.

Can we choose to live responsibly simply because it makes life better for us in the here and now, without God in the picture?

On a level I totaly understand that

I believe in science...science and religion should never clash..for science is based on the scientic method a very thorough experimentation method..and cognitive therapy aggree...I took quite a few psych classes ..cognitive/behavoral approaxh has the most research backing...

I also understand skeptnitism....it is important to be skeptical....it si our defense again irrational ideas

however.....I tried ..to be athiest..I cant.....somehow I know that there is a higher being..I cant shake it.

maybe I am just less evolved.... I dunno

but I can accept that I dont know everything...but there are some mysteris I have to understand..like love, joy and peace

anyway

best wishes

JoAnne

Hi there, i will just throw out a few ideas for fun.

Ultimately, Science and Religion do clash. Look at Evolution, for instance. But it doesn't have to be traumatic.

But I wouldn't try to FORCE yourself to be an atheist!
Perhaps just TRUST YOUR OWN THINKING, and continue to explore and think carefully about everything.

For instance, even as an Atheist a person can look at the universe with wonder and believe in a Higher Power.
I do.
Our bodies are made of atoms created in stars. Evolution produced Life over billions of years. That to me is a Higher Power, but it is impersonal. The Sun is a Higher Power behind all life on earth through photosynthesis. The Aztecs were smart to worship the sun! No sun, no life!

Also, there are ideas like the Platonic Mathematical universe put forward by mathematicians like Roger Penrose.
There are hundreds of fascinating and wonderful ideas out there. Atheism doesn't have to be some depressing chain-smoking nihilism!

You can add Positive Psychology, [www.positivepsychology.org]

The Brights, [www.the-brights.net]

Transhumanism [www.transhumanism.com]

I am not trying to convert you to Atheism! ;-)
I am just pointing out there are hundreds of fascinating ideas out there, and we can have FUN EXPLORING THEM, like a kid in a candy store.
But don't forget your powerful set of Critical Thinking Tools for the journey, otherwise you can get tricked, by others and yourself!

So again, i would encourage everyone to do the opposite of what Cults tell people.
Trust YOUR thinking, and trust your ability to Question and Doubt, and think about things in your own way.
Then, Reality Test your ideas, and use Critical Thinking Skills.

A person can believe in God, or Wicca, or whatever else they want. That is not going to cause problems, as long as you Reality Test your ideas.
If you want to cast a Wiccan spell, then try it, do experiements, see if it works. But do REAL experiments, which control for personal bias, which is not easy to do.

So each person will figure this out for themselves.
Trust your OWN GUT FEELINGS.
Listen to your own Intuition.
but then vigorously TEST your ideas, so you don't trick yourself, or get tricked.

Like in TM, those guys think they are going to learn to Levitate.
Well, instead of hopping on their asses for 10 years, why not enroll in a course in the Law of Gravitation, and learn how the universe REALLY works?
They would save a lot in hemorrhoid cream too...
;-)

As far as Love, Joy and Peace, those are wonderful ideas to think about.
You can approach them philosophically, psychologically, emotionally. Many scholars have written scientific books on love, as well as Artists who have explored these ideas.
As an Atheist, i also treasure Love, Joy and Peace.
Love is an actual feeling, Joy is a real feeling as well.
And peace is another feeling, but it can mean so much more too.

This is why the guys who call themselves Brights, tried to come up with a new term than Atheist. Atheist is so dreary sounding!
They tried to come up with something better, but Bright has not caught on.

So again, i am not advocating a POV, just encouraging everyone to follow their own path, as they see fit.
If ideas don't make sense to you, REJECT them.
Do the opposite of what the cultists tell you, and we should all be just fine!

Coz

Quote
nativeflower
On a level I totaly understand that

I believe in science...science and religion should never clash..for science is based on the scientic method a very thorough experimentation method..and cognitive therapy aggree...I took quite a few psych classes ..cognitive/behavoral approaxh has the most research backing...

I also understand skeptnitism....it is important to be skeptical....it si our defense again irrational ideas

however.....I tried ..to be athiest..I cant.....somehow I know that there is a higher being..I cant shake it.

maybe I am just less evolved.... I dunno

but I can accept that I dont know everything...but there are some mysteris I have to understand..like love, joy and peace

anyway

best wishes

JoAnne

your cool ....ya ...I question whether faith/works is the same as the phesudo effect...."the power of possitive thinking" etc. etc.

As a psych major I know that ideas such as faith, majic etc is very herd to test

like people have claimed that talking to plants makes them grow...is is physical or spiritual..turns out that the carbon monoxide we breathe out is what plants breathe in....so ya that is part of the puzzle..but lets try this..talk bad things to a plant and see what happens..then talk good things to a plant

a study at yale sated that a plant dies when exposed to metalica over a long period of time and thrive when exposed to classical music..so this coold be a way to rule out the spiritua;l existance of nature.....

interesting study

anyway I totaly get what you are sayoing....to follow ones path

I believe in reincarnation based on nature around me and the cosmos..everything goes in cycles why not my soul?? of course more study would have to be done to prove it..I guess that is more of a hypothisis than an explanation

anyway..thanks for your help

JoAnne

Nativeflower:

I consider it all "hypothesis," ideas that may or may not be right, but deserve at least our respect (unless someone is trying to shove them down our throat).

I too have gone through a lot of spiritual searching. Having escaped a New Age cult with harshly racist undertones, for a while I was very uncomfortable with any beliefs at all. I left Christianity because of blatant anti-semitism, only to encounter the same thing thirty years later emerging in the spiritual movement.

I'm slowly returning to where I can see the beauty in various religions and spiritual beliefs, and don't react with immediate distrust. My own willingness to allow a wide variety of beliefs was later used as a way to manipulate me into thinking all beliefs were based on one "Truth", and we knew and controlled that one pure "Truth," making all other beliefs based in lies.

Personal belief is lovely, and I worry that too many people are seeing a single enforced belief system as somehow better. And I speak not only about the Christian Right, but increasingly what would be seen as the Religious Left as well.

I'm glad you are talking about this. Recovering your spirituality after having it abused and used to control you is a part of cult recovery, I think.

Thank you for sharing...

Hi -

Have you tried Unitarianism? They seem to have a more fluid set of beliefs. It seems folks who don't seem to like the structure of other religions like Unitarianism because of its fluidity.

From the BBC:
[www.bbc.co.uk]
There is no Unitarian creed - i.e. there is no specified list of things that Unitarians must believe.

Unitarians are sceptical about any one person or tradition possessing the whole truth. They are also increasingly aware of the inherent value of diversity for the wellbeing of the natural world.

With these points in mind, Unitarians suggest that human differences of opinion and lifestyle should be seen as potentially creative and enriching, rather than necessarily destructive.

I've always found it curious that the human race seems always to want to put spirituality in a box that can be labeled and defined and agreed upon by all.
I think that people doubt the truth of their own beliefs and need a group's approval and agreement to confirm the validity of what they believe.
I've given some thought to the nature of intelligence lately and it occured to me that a large component of what we call intelligence is confidence in your own beliefs.

But I am incapable of achieving a state or agreement with any group concensis; this individualism sems to be inherent and irrepressible.
Both groups called this individualism stupidity.
I disagree.

I totaly understand what you are saying....I think that we go out looking for love, commitment, acceptance...etc etc

what if all those things that we wish others would give us.....that we would give ourselves

I believe that what we long for and search for diligently...is what we need to give ourselves

example searching for acceptance? what if I accept myself as I am?
searching for belonging...what if I belive that I have all that I need

etcetc

sorry to hear of your double whammy.....but obvioisly you got smart....I wish you well in your journey to find youreself

Jojo

Truthfully, it wasn't a double, just a whammy (AA).
I thought I really needed AA and that kept me trapped in the BS for a while.

The other cult I hung out with was not as high key. I considered myself a groupie rather than a devotee, and didn't take my involvement in it very seriously.

It is a shame that something (ie. the other cult) that was at first so light and joyous an experience had to become tarnished by secrecy and the pressure towards conformity and blind acceptance of one man's (Guru) dogma.

Live and let live, that's my motto (most of the time). I have learned the hard way to have the conviction of my own beliefs, while trying to keep an open mind. The threat of Hell or rebirth has never been strong enough to transform me into a submissive member of the flock.

I really enjoy your writings, nativeflower. Be Happy :lol:

Bonnie: You seem to have found a path that with a spirit that reflects your name.

Approach the potential teacher with an empty cup and if she is the right teacher, your cup will be filled.

Love and Light :o :D