Re: Fake Tibetan Buddhist Lamas - Do you know any "Wolves in Lama's Robes
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 09, 2012 11:21PM
G120. dominique, on August 11, 2011 at 12:25 pm said:
Business as usual at Lerab Ling in France with 3 days of open doors festivities, animation stalls for children and HH Dalai Lama’s conferences transmitted on plasma screens live from Toulouse. The magazine Elle even promotes that place for unusual holidays.I feel ashamed of being French.A few months ago we had a psychiatrist condemmed to prison for sexually abusing his patients under the cover of “tantric practices”, we had a politician condemned for sexually abusing 3 of his female colleagues under the cover of “reflexotherapy”.Sogyal Rinpoche as been abusing young followers for decades with the complicity of Rigpa organisation amongst which are doctors and therapists .These people one day will have to answer for their denial and cowardice.Everybody can see the young girls ritually fed to a very sick man,people publicly humiliated in seminars.Hardly anybody moves or talks.What has happened to us ,western Buddhists?We are losing all common sense and humanity .We are all responsible for not breaking the silence and chosing to remain in a trance like practice, hypnotised by Buddha lite.Coca does not quench thirst..
121. Anon, on August 11, 2011 at 12:50 pm said:
If someone launches a legal case against Sogyal now, there is a good chance of winning, particularly with all the emerging evidence. That would make the Tibetans take notice
122. Anonymous, on August 13, 2011 at 1:57 pm said:
dominique, where bhave you been? In a psychiatric institution in China?
**(Corboy: note that this quite boring cliche has been trotted out right after someone suggested taking legal action now that more evidence has emerged.)
I’m sorry, but your story has nothing to do with Rigpa. I can’t believe my eyes reading your text! My friend has been on the 3 year retreat – and your story is absolutely MAD.
*(Corboy: And possibly anonymous's alleged friend who did the retreat was one of the high status types who not bullied. I was bully fodder in my two CPE units. The people who were not picked on would have reported quite different experiences.)
123. Anon, on August 13, 2011 at 2:31 pm said:
Funny how a ‘Buddhist’ could write such stuff when one of the first things Buddhism teaches is that we all see different things in relation to the same object. While your friends experience on one 3 year retreat (surprise, there is more than one!) may not be the same as Dominiques, that does not mean her testimony is untrue-or maybe its time you did a 3 year retreat.
Before doing so though, remember the words of kalu Rinpoche to his 3 year retreatant sin the Dordogne :’All this has done is increase your arrogance’
130. Anon, on August 13, 2011 at 6:03 pm said:
It is often the case that when critics validly condemn the perverse activities of charlatans that they are accused of insanity; indeed, it is frequently the first line of defence of the blind faithful.
I would be the first to admit I was ‘mad’ from the perspective of judging the world as dualistic. As for the normal perameters, I am as sane as the next man ;) However, if Dominique were mad (from either perspective), this would be after several years under the supervision of Sogyal.
Is that what genuine Buddhist teachers do? Not in my experience
131. Anon, on August 13, 2011 at 6:17 pm said:
“
Or -Until your omniscient, you cant know things? Bit extreme, dont you think?
132. dominique, on August 13, 2011 at 6:51 pm said:
I did not do the 3 year retreat in Lerab Ling.I have been a practicing Buddhist for 40 years, and wish to share my experiences in dysfunctional Dharma structures.
I have also noted that many people who are willing to rationalise the behaviour of an abusive teacher are often from homes where this kind of behaviour took place.
They repeat history enabling the guru rather than finding freedom.
Business as usual at Lerab Ling in France with 3 days of open doors festivities, animation stalls for children and HH Dalai Lama’s conferences transmitted on plasma screens live from Toulouse. The magazine Elle even promotes that place for unusual holidays.I feel ashamed of being French.A few months ago we had a psychiatrist condemmed to prison for sexually abusing his patients under the cover of “tantric practices”, we had a politician condemned for sexually abusing 3 of his female colleagues under the cover of “reflexotherapy”.Sogyal Rinpoche as been abusing young followers for decades with the complicity of Rigpa organisation amongst which are doctors and therapists .These people one day will have to answer for their denial and cowardice.Everybody can see the young girls ritually fed to a very sick man,people publicly humiliated in seminars.Hardly anybody moves or talks.What has happened to us ,western Buddhists?We are losing all common sense and humanity .We are all responsible for not breaking the silence and chosing to remain in a trance like practice, hypnotised by Buddha lite.Coca does not quench thirst..
121. Anon, on August 11, 2011 at 12:50 pm said:
If someone launches a legal case against Sogyal now, there is a good chance of winning, particularly with all the emerging evidence. That would make the Tibetans take notice
122. Anonymous, on August 13, 2011 at 1:57 pm said:
dominique, where bhave you been? In a psychiatric institution in China?
**(Corboy: note that this quite boring cliche has been trotted out right after someone suggested taking legal action now that more evidence has emerged.)
I’m sorry, but your story has nothing to do with Rigpa. I can’t believe my eyes reading your text! My friend has been on the 3 year retreat – and your story is absolutely MAD.
*(Corboy: And possibly anonymous's alleged friend who did the retreat was one of the high status types who not bullied. I was bully fodder in my two CPE units. The people who were not picked on would have reported quite different experiences.)
123. Anon, on August 13, 2011 at 2:31 pm said:
Funny how a ‘Buddhist’ could write such stuff when one of the first things Buddhism teaches is that we all see different things in relation to the same object. While your friends experience on one 3 year retreat (surprise, there is more than one!) may not be the same as Dominiques, that does not mean her testimony is untrue-or maybe its time you did a 3 year retreat.
Before doing so though, remember the words of kalu Rinpoche to his 3 year retreatant sin the Dordogne :’All this has done is increase your arrogance’
130. Anon, on August 13, 2011 at 6:03 pm said:
It is often the case that when critics validly condemn the perverse activities of charlatans that they are accused of insanity; indeed, it is frequently the first line of defence of the blind faithful.
I would be the first to admit I was ‘mad’ from the perspective of judging the world as dualistic. As for the normal perameters, I am as sane as the next man ;) However, if Dominique were mad (from either perspective), this would be after several years under the supervision of Sogyal.
Is that what genuine Buddhist teachers do? Not in my experience
131. Anon, on August 13, 2011 at 6:17 pm said:
“
Quote
unless you can see everything are in a position to know everything – how can you discount another persons experience.”
Or -Until your omniscient, you cant know things? Bit extreme, dont you think?
132. dominique, on August 13, 2011 at 6:51 pm said:
I did not do the 3 year retreat in Lerab Ling.I have been a practicing Buddhist for 40 years, and wish to share my experiences in dysfunctional Dharma structures.
I have also noted that many people who are willing to rationalise the behaviour of an abusive teacher are often from homes where this kind of behaviour took place.
They repeat history enabling the guru rather than finding freedom.
Re: Fake Tibetan Buddhist Lamas - Do you know any "Wolves in Lama's Robes
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 10, 2012 05:41AM
Corboy note: this discussion with the many comments quoted above took place on Dialogue Ireland as quoted on this
thread.
[dialogueireland.wordpress.com]
In the past 12 months, it is possible that persons and organizations whose names were linked in this discussion with Sogyal Rinpoche/Rigpa may perhaps no longer do so.
A lot can happen in a year.
thread.
[dialogueireland.wordpress.com]
In the past 12 months, it is possible that persons and organizations whose names were linked in this discussion with Sogyal Rinpoche/Rigpa may perhaps no longer do so.
A lot can happen in a year.
Re: Fake Tibetan Buddhist Lamas - Do you know any "Wolves in Lama's Robes
Posted by:
walter1963
()
Date: November 10, 2012 03:06PM
One thing at play among the Tibetan Buddhist is that some of their meditation practices seem to have detrimental emotional effects in done consistently over a extended period.
They just don't get upset no matter how serious the sexual, physical or monetary violations are. Trungpa and his successor are classic examples, Roach is another, Sogyal, etc. You can use Western Buddhists as doormats and all they'll say 'thank you, may I have some more'.
Part of this lay down and die mentality I attribute to Guru Yoga which is nothing more than turning Westerners into unquestioning serfs who bow before their feudal lord. Whereas the old nobility had to routinely butcher the serfs to keep them in line. The Lamas went them one better and made their slaves brainwash themselves into unquestioning submission and like it.
Another thing that is now popping up is that those who are deep into TB lose intellectual curiosity.
And why doesn't the psychology community doesn't openly condemn Guru Yoga practice? On it's face it's just plain pernicious and any therapist who had their patients use this technique would lose their license. Instead we get a bunch of fawning Western sycophants from the neuroscience and therapist communities extolling how great Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama is. And watering holes like Spirit Rock where all the brainwashed Westerners hang out.
Tonglen, that supposedly wonderful compassion meditation, while in very small doses can be helpful in certain situations is poison IMO if done daily. It's a powerful mix of visualization, self-hypnosis and emotional charging. You will emotionally flatline if you do it too much. And it's fake compassion, you just get a high off it like Demerol. If you want to develop real compassion, go out and do volunteer work of some kind. That's something that no Lama or Rinpoche would ever do.
If I was running a cult, I'd teach my followers three things:
1) Put down rationality and logic and promote emotionalism.(which almost every New Age group or book does and there are reasons for this). Recent research has shown that when a person becomes emotional they lose their analytical side of the mind. This is why con-men and advertisers always appeal to people's emotional(consciously and unconsciously) side in order to win them over. You can't do it when they are in balancing check book mode.
2) Guru Yoga
3) Tonglen - so they won't get mad when I fleece them on a repeated basis.
They just don't get upset no matter how serious the sexual, physical or monetary violations are. Trungpa and his successor are classic examples, Roach is another, Sogyal, etc. You can use Western Buddhists as doormats and all they'll say 'thank you, may I have some more'.
Part of this lay down and die mentality I attribute to Guru Yoga which is nothing more than turning Westerners into unquestioning serfs who bow before their feudal lord. Whereas the old nobility had to routinely butcher the serfs to keep them in line. The Lamas went them one better and made their slaves brainwash themselves into unquestioning submission and like it.
Another thing that is now popping up is that those who are deep into TB lose intellectual curiosity.
And why doesn't the psychology community doesn't openly condemn Guru Yoga practice? On it's face it's just plain pernicious and any therapist who had their patients use this technique would lose their license. Instead we get a bunch of fawning Western sycophants from the neuroscience and therapist communities extolling how great Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama is. And watering holes like Spirit Rock where all the brainwashed Westerners hang out.
Tonglen, that supposedly wonderful compassion meditation, while in very small doses can be helpful in certain situations is poison IMO if done daily. It's a powerful mix of visualization, self-hypnosis and emotional charging. You will emotionally flatline if you do it too much. And it's fake compassion, you just get a high off it like Demerol. If you want to develop real compassion, go out and do volunteer work of some kind. That's something that no Lama or Rinpoche would ever do.
If I was running a cult, I'd teach my followers three things:
1) Put down rationality and logic and promote emotionalism.(which almost every New Age group or book does and there are reasons for this). Recent research has shown that when a person becomes emotional they lose their analytical side of the mind. This is why con-men and advertisers always appeal to people's emotional(consciously and unconsciously) side in order to win them over. You can't do it when they are in balancing check book mode.
2) Guru Yoga
3) Tonglen - so they won't get mad when I fleece them on a repeated basis.
Re: Fake Tibetan Buddhist Lamas - Do you know any "Wolves in Lama's Robes
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 10, 2012 11:55PM
One Citizen's Commentary.
Instead of inviting our reader to imagine all the gurus and buddhas, I will use a scene from Monty Python's The Meaning of Life as a framing device -- the organ donation episode.
Ever see Monty Python's The Meaning of Life?
In a large corporate boardroom, a businessman straight-forwardly summarises his two-part report on the meaning of life: that the human soul must be "brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation", which rarely happens; and that "people aren't wearing enough hats."
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Part of instructions for Tonglen.
IMO, unless very carefully done, the risk of this approach is to move very quickly to surround painful emotions with capsule of behavior that processes our emotions through a standardized protocol that may, if done too often and too heavily, privatize pain, internalize that pain creating an internalized fantasy world of connecting with all beings in the same situation.
In a partial quote of instructions for tonglen given below, it states
This ignores that very many people who come to dharma practice are already highly sensitive to the needs of others.
In the conversation on Dialogue Ireland, 'dominique', who identified herself as having practiced dharma for 40 years, writes:
Here is a quotation from the Tonglen instructions
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Instead of inviting our reader to imagine all the gurus and buddhas, I will use a scene from Monty Python's The Meaning of Life as a framing device -- the organ donation episode.
Ever see Monty Python's The Meaning of Life?
Quote
Part V – Live Organ Transplants
Two paramedics (Chapman and Cleese) arrive at the doorstep of Mr Brown (Gilliam), a card-carrying organ donor, to claim his liver, gruesomely operating on him against his will.
Cleese's paramedic unsuccessfully attempts to chat up Mrs Brown, then requests her liver as well.
She initially declines, but after a man (Idle) sings a song about man's insignificance in the universe ("The Galaxy Song"), she agrees.
In a large corporate boardroom, a businessman straight-forwardly summarises his two-part report on the meaning of life: that the human soul must be "brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation", which rarely happens; and that "people aren't wearing enough hats."
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Quote
Likewise, the live liver “donation” sequence, with its gurgled screams, arterial blood plumes, and handfuls of intestines brandished about before the lens: sure it's gross.
But is that all it is?
*(Corboy note- the man is butchered in front of his missus. Egregious suffering. Imagine guru grooming and then serially preying on students)
The wife of the just deceased (bloodily butchered-Corboy)donor is given an unmistakably sexual come-on by one of the white-coated men in order to get her to give up her liver.
She demurs.
Out of her refrigerator pops a man in top hat and tails (also white), who with a wave of his cane blows out the dingy walls of her kitchen to reveal the star-bejeweled vastness of the universe sparkling around them. They stroll along an invisible path through the firmament.
He sings to her about the size of it all, and our comparative insignificance.
*(Might as well be a Vajrayana visualisation--eh? Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Corboy)
Completely dazzled by her intergalactic wooing, upon return to her kitchen she agrees readily to give up her liver
— and her life.
From Jump Cuts by Fred Glass
[www.ejumpcut.org]
Part of instructions for Tonglen.
IMO, unless very carefully done, the risk of this approach is to move very quickly to surround painful emotions with capsule of behavior that processes our emotions through a standardized protocol that may, if done too often and too heavily, privatize pain, internalize that pain creating an internalized fantasy world of connecting with all beings in the same situation.
In a partial quote of instructions for tonglen given below, it states
Quote
The Tonglen practice is a method for connecting with suffering– oursand that which is all around us– everywhere we go. It is a method forovercoming fear of suffering and for dissolving the tightness of ourheart. Primarily it is a method for awakening the compassion that isinherent in all of us, no matter how cruel or cold we might seem to be.
This ignores that very many people who come to dharma practice are already highly sensitive to the needs of others.
In the conversation on Dialogue Ireland, 'dominique', who identified herself as having practiced dharma for 40 years, writes:
Quote
132. dominique, on August 13, 2011 at 6:51 pm said:
I did not do the 3 year retreat in Lerab Ling.I have been a practicing Buddhist for 40 years, and wish to share my experiences in dysfunctional Dharma structures.
I have also noted that many people who are willing to rationalise the behaviour of an abusive teacher are often from homes where this kind of behaviour took place.
They repeat history enabling the guru rather than finding freedom.
Here is a quotation from the Tonglen instructions
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Quote
Maybe you are able to name your pain. You recognize it clearly as terror or revulsion or anger or wanting to get revenge.
So you breathein for all the people who are caught with that same emotion and yousend out relief or whatever opens up the space for yourself and all those countless others.
Maybe you can't name what you're feeling. But you can feel it-– atightness in the stomach, a heavy darkness or whatever.
Just contactwhat you are feeling and breathe in, take it in– for all of us and sendout relief to all of us.People often say that this practice goes against the grain of how weusually hold ourselves together.
Truthfully, this practice does goagainst the grain of wanting things on our own terms, of wanting it towork out for ourselves no matter what happens to the others.
Thepractice dissolves the armor of self-protection we've tried so hard tocreate around ourselves. In Buddhist language one would say that it issolves the fixation and clinging of ego.
Tonglen reverses the usual logic of avoiding suffering and seekingpleasure and, in the process, we become liberated from a very ancient
prison of selfishness.
We begin to feel love both for ourselves andothers and also we being to take care of ourselves and others. Itawakens our compassion and it also introduces us to a far larger viewof reality. It introduces us to the unlimited spaciousness thatBuddhists call shunyata.
Quote
Maybe you are able to name your pain.
(But in the Vajrayana scene, if you try to name your pain as something done to you by a powerholder, you risk being told you are projecting your stuff on to the sitaution. So..how to name the agent of the pain correctly is not straightforward-Corboy)
You recognize it clearly as terror or revulsion or anger or wanting to get revenge.
So you breathe in for all the people who are caught with that same emotion and you send out relief or whatever opens up the space for yourself and all those countless others.
Maybe you can't name what you're feeling.
But you can feel it-– a tightness in the stomach, a heavy darkness or whatever. Just contact what you are feeling and breathe in, take it in– for all of us (generalizing the situation -- Corboy) and send out relief to all of us.
People often say that this practice goes against the grain of how we usually hold ourselves together.
(It goes against the grain of what created the United States of America and its generous tax exemptions that have made US turf so attractive to all these lams and rinpoches. Corboy)
Truthfully, this practice does go against the grain of wanting things on our own terms, of wanting it to work out for ourselves no matter what happens to the others[/i].
First 'wanting things' then 'wanting it' --there is confusion between singular and plural.
**(This sentence posits an unsatisfiying premise. The language is tangled. Wanting it to work out for ourselves--an alert English Composition teacher would red pencil the sentence construction for grammatical errors.
In addition, the language is vague. What is 'it'?
Next, "Working it out" does not have to be a selfish enterprise.
'working it out for ourselves no matter what happens to the others' -- that makes it seem that people are inherantly selfish and indifferent 'to the others' and that tonglen is the remedy.
"working it out" with an attitude that is different from the attitude governing use of tonglen means ignoring or not caring what happens to the others.
As a citizen, I suggest that 'working it out' can mean identifying the social context, who has agency and fiduciary responsibility for using money and power responsibly and--identifying where there is trouble, naming the trouble and fixing the problem so ALL CAN BENEFIT, not only the person who has been harmed, but future arriving students at that center.
Re: Fake Tibetan Buddhist Lamas - Do you know any "Wolves in Lama's Robes
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: November 11, 2012 01:32AM
Re: Fake Tibetan Buddhist Lamas - Do you know any "Wolves in Lama's Robes
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 12, 2013 10:45PM
"It is impossible for an investigator to prove any fault with the tenets of a hierarchical belief system, even after long term personal experience of the belief system."
Quote
Any attempt at debate with the hierachs of a cult is doomed*, because a critic can never disprove the hierachs' claim to a special revelation, or to a more profound understanding of the group's core beliefs.
(Corboy: *Or that a guru or senior teacher is abusing people, power and or money)
So attempts to reform a cult from within tend to be futile.
(Quoted from below)
The Dalai Lama and others have claimed that one should investigate a prospective guru for years before deciding whether that person is a true teacher. This seemingly reasonable advice ignores that all the time spent observing a prospective teacher is time spent in the environment centered around that teacher, and this social immersion can compromise an observer's acuity.
The FWBO Files has this to say:
[www.fwbo-files.com]
Quote
This is because a hierarchical type of belief system, with its ideas about lower and higher levels of awareness and understanding, is intrinsically non-falsifiable. [22] No counter observations or criticisms of a hierarchical type of belief system can ever be established as objectively true.
It is impossible for an investigator to prove any fault with the tenets of a hierarchical belief system, even after long term personal experience of the belief system, or to censure any of the methods (short of physical force) which might be used to promote such a belief system.
It is never actually possible to prove that a group promoting such a belief system has used 'devious psychological techniques to gain and control adherents', even if they have, because critics can never prove that their criticisms are not based merely on mundane ignorance and misunderstanding. From the perspective of a hierarchical, dualistic type of belief system, critics are deemed to be at a lower level of awareness, and are thus effectively disenfranchised. [23]
Any attempt at debate with the hierachs of a cult is doomed, because a critic can never disprove the hierachs' claim to a special revelation, or to a more profound understanding of the group's core beliefs.
So attempts to reform a cult from within tend to be futile.
It may also be difficult to warn outsiders what the 'inner life' of the belief system is actually like, because critics can never actually prove that their criticisms are objectively valid, not just personal and subjective.
These difficulties tend to be characteristic of cult-type belief systems, and help to put cult organisations beyond the reach of any outside authority.
In the bibliography, this is discussed further:
alsifiability' was first put forward as criterion for testable scientific truth by Sir Karl Popper, Professor of Logic and Scientific Method at the London School of Economics from 1949 - 1969.
A statement of the form 'All crows are black' is a falsifiable statement, because one properly authenticated observation of a white (albino) crow is sufficient to show that the statement is false, despite any number of observations of black crows. In other words, the statement is capable of being disproved through empirical evidence.
Statements of the form: 'Spiritual life begins when one realises that one is not as aware as one could be' or 'We always have to be aware that our. . .um . . . what we think, is not true, until enlightenment' are non-falsifiable statements. While any number of people within a group may observe (or say that they believe) that they have become more aware following the group's spiritual guidance, a person who questions this or who observes (or believes) that they themselves have not become more aware following the group's spiritual guidance, cannot establish this either as a valid observation, or as a reasonable belief. This is because it can easily be argued that this 'negative' observation results from that person's own deficiencies of spiritual awareness, and not from any deficiencies in the group's spiritual guidance, or in the truth of the group's doctrines.
Quote
In the case of a cult, the 'powerful, privileged minority' are the cult leaders and hierachs. The difficulty is that an investigator (or potential new member) has to exercise a hermeneutic of faith as well as of suspicion, if they are to succeed in penetrating into the mind set of a cult member and in unmasking therein any 'unconscious ideological structures'. Only someone with hands-on experience of the ethos and interior dynamics of the group actually knows the point of view of an engaged believer. Only an insider can really tell us if the 'inner life' of the belief system serves the members or a privileged hierarchy.
This places an investigator in a dangerous paradox. On the one hand, they have to go native and enter into the belief system to some extent, if they want to know whether the 'inner life' of the belief system serves the members or the hierarchy. But the difficulty with experimenting with this sort of belief system is that at no point is it possible for an investigator to know for sure when to stop. Having begun to adopt, cautiously and on a trial basis, elements of a hierarchical, dualistic belief system, it is never possible to know when the belief system has been given a fair trial.
At no stage can an investigator or a newcomer eliminate the possibility that they have failed to attain any more than a mundane level of insight into the group's beliefs.
(CorboyOr their assessment of a guru's fitness to be their teacher, especially the kinds of gurus who claim 'crazy wisdom')
They can never be sure that a breakthrough to a deeper level of understanding is impossible, or that valuable insights will definitely not result from attending the next training course or residential weekend offered by the group. Or from the next course after that. A hierarchical cult-type belief system is like an endless road to a uncertain destination.
Re: Fake Tibetan Buddhist Lamas - Do you know any "Wolves in Lama's Robes
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 12, 2013 10:49PM
Quote
23 Re: Critics disenfranchised and the non-democratic nature of cults:
'There's no democracy in the Western Buddhist Order! .... It's a hierarchy, but a spiritual one.... It is the broad feeling that there is in someone, or in certain people, something higher and better than yourself to which you can look up.... It's a good, positive thing to be able to look up to someone! If you can't, you're in a pretty difficult position. You're in a sad state.... like a child that hasn't even got a mother and father to look up to....But this sort of assertion, that you're just as good as anybody else in the egalitarian sense, is really sick.'
From 'The Endlessly Fascinating Cry.' A seminar by FWBO leader Sangharakshita on the Bodhicaryavatara, transcribed and published FWBO, 1977, p.74-5
[www.fwbo-files.com]
Note how this can be twisted around to make it seem that someone who has misgivings about surrendering personal autonomy to a an unquestionable guru or who has misgivings about any organization centered around a the attainments of an unquestionably superior leader is someone who, by valuing autonomy, is too ego driven, too deluded, to be capable of discipleship.
Re: Fake Tibetan Buddhist Lamas - Do you know any "Wolves in Lama's Robes
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 12, 2013 11:04PM
If a group is classified as a religion, then leaders of that group have considerable freedom, within the group at least, to set their own moral codes and to adjudicate between right and wrong.
Potentially, any methods of persuasion, short of those which involve actual, legally provable physical coercion, may be considered reasonable within the ethical codes of a self-originated belief system.
A sincere believer may feel that, in religious matters, the end justifies the means, and therefore various deceptive and devious practices may, in the mind of a believer, be justified as skillful means, crazy wisdom, or heavenly deception.
In the footnote 12 of The Culture of Cults, a discussion of the Friends of the Western Buddhist Order (now re-named Tri-Ratna), there was a discussion of how Scientologists dealt with the public.
Change the terms to tantra see what it looks like.
I am going to supply the text of the original article below in section B
In Section A (here) I will give the text and subsitute 'tantra' for "scientology" and "tantric practitioner" for "Scientologist."
---Section A------------
Quote
12 Re: justification of lies and deception:
From a conversation posted on the internet newsgroup, alt.support.ex-cult on Fri 24 Mar 2000, on thread: '$cientology: Cult of LIES'
Poster 1
>>Lying implies some kind of malicious intention <<
Poster 2
'Lying does not by definition imply malicious intent - you can lie out of politeness, out of pity, because you think the truth would be bad for that person, etc. etc. etc.
'Outright lying means to tell people things that you do know are not true - Tantric practionters do that at times, when they are honestly convinced that this is better for Tantra.
'But there are finer variations where one can convince oneself, that one is not really lying:
You can tell only a small part of the truth, you can tell the truth in a way that the other person does understand it differently as it is, you can consciously omit important facts, you can formulate things generally and unspecific - all with the intent that the other person judges the situation according to your wishes while you objectively do not give the person the information necessary to judge the situation impartially.
'Sure you can say, that you did not lie - but you did not tell what is, in your conviction, the full truth.'
Poster 1
>>Because tantric practionters believe in their tech does not make them liars. For the most part, tantric practionters are honest and well-meaning. Just like most critics. <<
Poster 2
'The point is not, that tantric practionters believe in their tech - they have the right to that.
'Also Tantric practionters themselves do try their best to act ethical (as they define it) and they are sincere in that.
'But Tantric practionters do have their own definition about ethics which does not fully correspond with the general understanding about ethics.
'And also Tantric practionters do have their own understanding about reality, about what to tell other people as truth about Tantra - again their view of these things is in conflict with the general understanding.
'This does not only concern staff - also public Tantric practionters are formally and informally told how to best explain Tantra to others, what to mention, how to mention it, what not to mention - all with the best intent, but the result is still, that you cannot, as an outsider, get fully informed about Tantra by a Tantric practionter. I do know that, because I did it myself and I taught it myself for years.
'Hardly any Tantric practionter lies consciously to you - but he tells you only a truth he thinks acceptable to you (and this might be so small a part of truth, that it results in disinformation, not information)'
Poster 1
>>Maybe this is true in any religion. If there is really no heaven, have the priests all lied to us? <<
Poster 2
'A voodoo adherent who firmly believes in voodoo, does not lie to you, when he tells you about voodoo, if he is sincere in telling you what he believes.
'A moslem who believes that non-moslems will go to hell, does not lie, if he tells what he sincerely believes - no matter, if the moslem hell factually exists or not.
'A protestant priest who does not believe that Jesus rose from the dead and still preaches he sure did, is lying - he tells something as truth which he does not believe in.
'A Tantric practionter who says Tantra is a religion and privately thinks it is a technology for self-betterment does lie to you - what he is saying is not what he believes. A Tantric practionter who believes Tantra is a religion and says it is a philosophy because a as religion it would not be acceptable in e.g. Greece, is lying - what he thinks and what he says is not the same and he knows it.
'One of the problems of Tantra is, that people are actually taught to tell outsiders not what insiders see as the truth - and that Tantric practionters feel it is ethical to do that. This sort of re-education about what is ethical or not does lead to conflicts with non-Tantric practionters.'
Section B (original text)
Quote
12 Re: justification of lies and deception:
From a conversation posted on the internet newsgroup, alt.support.ex-cult on Fri 24 Mar 2000, on thread: '$cientology: Cult of LIES'
Poster 1
>>Lying implies some kind of malicious intention <<
Poster 2
'Lying does not by definition imply malicious intent - you can lie out of politeness, out of pity, because you think the truth would be bad for that person, etc. etc. etc.
'Outright lying means to tell people things that you do know are not true - Scientologists do that at times, when they are honestly convinced that this is better for Scientology.
'But there are finer variations where one can convince oneself, that one is not really lying: You can tell only a small part of the truth, you can tell the truth in a way that the other person does understand it differently as it is, you can consciously omit important facts, you can formulate things generally and unspecific - all with the intent that the other person judges the situation according to your wishes while you objectively do not give the person the information necessary to judge the situation impartially.
'Sure you can say, that you did not lie - but you did not tell what is, in your conviction, the full truth.'
Poster 1
>>Because scientologists believe in their tech does not make them liars. For the most part, scientologists are honest and well-meaning. Just like most critics. <<
Poster 2
'The point is not, that scientologists believe in their tech - they have the right to that.
'Also Scientologists themselves do try their best to act ethical (as they define it) and they are sincere in that.
'But Scientologists do have their own definition about ethics which does not fully correspond with the general understanding about ethics.
'And also Scientologists do have their own understanding about reality, about what to tell other people as truth about Scientology - again their view of these things is in conflict with the general understanding.
'This does not only concern staff - also public Scientologists are formally and informally told how to best explain Scientology to others, what to mention, how to mention it, what not to mention - all with the best intent, but the result is still, that you cannot, as an outsider, get fully informed about Scientology by a Scientologist. I do know that, because I did it myself and I taught it myself for years.
'Hardly any Scientologist lies consciously to you - but he tells you only a truth he thinks acceptable to you (and this might be so small a part of truth, that it results in disinformation, not information)'
Poster 1
>>Maybe this is true in any religion. If there is really no heaven, have the priests all lied to us? <<
Poster 2
'A voodoo adherent who firmly believes in voodoo, does not lie to you, when he tells you about voodoo, if he is sincere in telling you what he believes.
'A moslem who believes that non-moslems will go to hell, does not lie, if he tells what he sincerely believes - no matter, if the moslem hell factually exists or not.
'A protestant priest who does not believe that Jesus rose from the dead and still preaches he sure did, is lying - he tells something as truth which he does not believe in.
'A Scientologist who says Scientology is a religion and privately thinks it is a technology for self-betterment does lie to you - what he is saying is not what he believes. A Scientologist who believes Scientology is a religion and says it is a philosophy because a as religion it would not be acceptable in e.g. Greece, is lying - what he thinks and what he says is not the same and he knows it.
'One of the problems of Scientology is, that people are actually taught to tell outsiders not what insiders see as the truth - and that Scientologists feel it is ethical to do that. This sort of re-education about what is ethical or not does lead to conflicts with non-Scientologists.'
Re: Fake Tibetan Buddhist Lamas - Do you know any "Wolves in Lama's Robes
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 12, 2013 11:24PM
Without limits or taboos there would be nothing to transgress and there would be no boundaries to break.
Tantra would not be possible. So perhaps for tension/transgression to be possible one needs a very structured, caste bound society (India) or the Buddhist ethical precepts.
So perhaps (and I put the stress on perhaps) that is why it is considered necessary to take the Buddhist ethical precepts before going on to tantric study. One has to have a boundary to break later on?
In Vajrayana tantra, do the Bodhisattva precepts serve a covert role in creating boundaries that are meant to generate ecstatic energy by being shattered later through tantric rituals that transgress those precepts?
This is quite different from other Mahayana Buddhist traditions in which one takes the precepts intending to live by them for this and all future lifetimes, period.
This is a discussion of Aleister Crowley, but I dare wonder if some of it applies to the role of taking the Bodhisattva Vow as a preliminary to later tantric study in the Vajrayana lineages.
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So...when evaluating a sangha, a lineage, one must find out if one is taking the precepts to honor those precepts through the entire course of practice, or if taking the ethical precepts is covertly considered by some to be preparation for entry into later practices that are transgressive and derive their power being transgressing those very same ethical precepts.
And its a double bind. One has to take the ethical precepts sincerely.
So one has to go through a lot of twists and turns where one can eventually transgress those same precepts with tantric sincerity.
Yi.
Tantra would not be possible. So perhaps for tension/transgression to be possible one needs a very structured, caste bound society (India) or the Buddhist ethical precepts.
So perhaps (and I put the stress on perhaps) that is why it is considered necessary to take the Buddhist ethical precepts before going on to tantric study. One has to have a boundary to break later on?
In Vajrayana tantra, do the Bodhisattva precepts serve a covert role in creating boundaries that are meant to generate ecstatic energy by being shattered later through tantric rituals that transgress those precepts?
This is quite different from other Mahayana Buddhist traditions in which one takes the precepts intending to live by them for this and all future lifetimes, period.
This is a discussion of Aleister Crowley, but I dare wonder if some of it applies to the role of taking the Bodhisattva Vow as a preliminary to later tantric study in the Vajrayana lineages.
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Quote
Transgression, Bataille argues, is not simple hedonism or unrestrained sexual license; rather, its power lies in the dialectic or "play" (le jeu) between taboo and transgression, through which one systematically constructs and then oversteps all laws.
Perhaps nowhere is this more apparent than in the case of eroticism. Not a matter of simple nudity, eroticism arises in the dialectic of veiling and revealing, clothing and striptease, between the creation of sexual taboos and the exhilarating experience of overstepping them.
So too, in ecstatic mystical experience or religious rites (such as blood sacrifices, carnivals, etc.), one must first create an aura of purity and sanctity before one can defile it with violence, transgression or the overturning of law. "The prohibition is there to be violated;" rules are made to be broken, for it is the experience of over-stepping limits that brings the blissful sense of continuity and communion with the Other:
Taboos...are not only there to be obeyed...It is always a temptation to knock down a barrier...Fear invests [the forbidden act] with an aura of excitement. ..
So...when evaluating a sangha, a lineage, one must find out if one is taking the precepts to honor those precepts through the entire course of practice, or if taking the ethical precepts is covertly considered by some to be preparation for entry into later practices that are transgressive and derive their power being transgressing those very same ethical precepts.
And its a double bind. One has to take the ethical precepts sincerely.
So one has to go through a lot of twists and turns where one can eventually transgress those same precepts with tantric sincerity.
Yi.
Re: Fake Tibetan Buddhist Lamas - Do you know any "Wolves in Lama's Robes
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 12, 2013 11:28PM
This author suggests that Crowley's methods and those of Shaiva Tantra were similar.
But Crowley wanted to use tantra to overthrow the existing social order; the Shaiva tantrics transgressed but used the rituals of trangression to claim a power that validated their social order.
Ditto for the Vajrayanists.
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But Crowley wanted to use tantra to overthrow the existing social order; the Shaiva tantrics transgressed but used the rituals of trangression to claim a power that validated their social order.
Ditto for the Vajrayanists.
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Quote
Both Hindu Shakta Tantra and Crowley's magic do center in large part around the acquisition of power (shakti in the Indian case), a power that flow lies within both the natural cosmos and the human self, a power that has both spritual and socio-political dimensions.
And both employed explicit acts of transgression -- the deliberate violation of accepted social, moral and sexual codes -- as one very potent means of awakening and harnessing that power. Yet at the same time, on the other hand, the ends to which that power was directed seems to be quite different in Shakta Tantra and in Crowley's magic.
As we saw above, most forms of Hindu Shakta Tantra have historically been quite conservative in orientation, tending to reinforce rather than subvert the existing social order
Tantric ritual does often involve deliberate inversions and transgressions of normal social laws and sexual taboos; but these are closely guarded by ritual secrecy and generally tend, in the end, to re-assert the power of the elite, male, well-educated Brahmins as the ritual experts who alone have the authority to overstep conventional social boundaries. [115]
Crowley, conversely, set out deliberately to overthrow, tear down and supplant the entire religious, social and moral world in which he was raised. From the revelation of his Book of the Law and continuing throughout his life, he set out to deconstruct an entire worldview and social order -- what he regarded as the effete, corrupt and bankrupt world dominated by Christianity -- and to set up in its place a new order based on the law of the Thelema.
In other words, both the Sakta Tantrikas and Crowley made use of explicit inversions of conventional morality and sexual taboos, but they did so for very different, even opposite reasons -- the one to reinforce the existing social order and status quo, and the other to destroy it.
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