"They don’t have the mental structures to treat us equally, because they are still living in the 8-14 century and make sure that that is what surrounds them. This is lamaism. . "
"On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with ‘pure view’ per se-ultimately such is the goal of Buddhism. The issue is the way certain Tibetans have skilfully manipulated the concept in order to facilitate abuse-therein lies the problem. If we dont note this subtle difference, we commit a huge downfall. Here, the problem lies with the messenger, not the message''
: If you want to stand a chance of remaining an alert citizen in relation to Vajaryana Lamaism and the Dalai Lama's PR machine, get and read Geoffrey Samuels' Civilized Shamans
. It is much less expensive than attending a tara empowerment or a wang--and will give you infinitely more liberation.
Follow that up by obtaining and reading Nicholai Grozni's memoir, Turtle Feet: The Making and Unmaking of a Buddhist Monk
. Grozni reveals staggering behind the scenes information--yet I had no impression that he was trying to write an expose--he merely wanted to mention a situation and the people who had been interesting and who had become valued friends.
14. Christie, on July 5, 2011 at 4:05 pm said:
This is the problem, conflating Buddhism with Lamaism.
I have been a Tibetan Buddhist for 30 years, these lamas, these third stringers are here for our money. These are NOT the Chogyam Trungpas who taught us to question everything and to speak out against corruption
(*Corboy note: Sad to report, Chogyam Trungpa created a set up where one was not allowed to question his own abuse of alcohol and creation of a heirarchical pecking order> In his memoir, The Double Mirror
, Stephen Butterfield, a disciple of both Trungpa and Ozel Tenzin, noted that what Buddhism he was taught enabled him to apply penetrating insight to everything---except to itself.)
(Christine)That teaching was lost on most of us and now Political Correct causes have joined with PC liberal lite weight buddhism, and yes yes CTR (Chogyram Trungpa Rinpoche)was a serial philanderer but he didn’t demean women, he put them in positions of power all over his mandala, He loved women, and respected them.
This Sogyal is a real abuser. These are not the Dilgo Khentse Rinpoches, not even the 16 th Karmapa who was about practice himself.
. These are mostly third stringer lamas, and even the good ones of the young Turks, growing up in India and Nepal in Exile and treated like “little princes
” with nothing to counterac their gigantic EGOS, t such as a really wrathful tutor like the old Lamas had, NEVER want to really come off those Hindustani Thrones. Never.
(Corboy note: In his memoir, Turtle Feet
, Nicolai Grozni, who lived as a Gelukpa monk in Dharamsala for three years, described participating in a debate with an opponent, a teenaged tulku "prince"--well worth reading--here is the text
(Christine)They see themselves as incarnate deities, and they can never give that up .
Even the pretty good ones, they just can’t give up the “golden throne center
and “mud hut fringe
” social structure, Never
They are only 60 years out of the 8th century , and they aren’t really out of it, they are trying to recreate it again, world wide. that’s what no one gets.
They don’t have the mental structures to treat us equally, because they are still living in the 8-14 century and make sure that that is what surrounds them. This is lamaism. . They all have a group of rich benefactors around them, close in, really the “house servants
As for the Dalai Lama and his simply message of peace, (meaning never get angry , never protest anything, this is not even the vajrayana buddhism of the early lamas, this is sappy new age religion to keep everyone as sheep.
The Kagyus were almost annilated by the Gelupa “Poltical Dalai Lamas
”. One of the first things I did when extricated myself from the cultism that started growing around all these current sects of lamaism now, is to read the true history of Tibet.
Christines discussion of Tibetan history and the fight between the Gelukpa Dalai Lamas vs the Kagyus is spot on. All of this and more is documented carefully with source material in Geoffrey Samuel's book, Civilized Shamans. Anyone considering a long term commiment to any kind of Buddhism should read Civilized Shamans at least once--because the Dalai Lama's PR machine is so ubiquitous that one can swallow the sugar and not understand that some very bitter stuff is underneath that sugar.)Christine
None of my former Tibetan “buddhist
” friends want to know anything anymore.
They don’t read history because their lamas tell them, in there always “disdaining
” way of talking about Western cultrue, that “they don’t believe in history
”, that’s from a Tsonkyi R retreat, that paragon of western buddhism now, close friend of Sogyal.
His management group are all rich benefactors who “manage the retreats
” they don’t actually do the retreats anymore with us.
They just do the fundraising and the PR machine to collect more and more money, for their “causes
.” THere is NO transparency in these groups . Because eventually all the students become sheep and ask no questions anymore.
The 501c3 Church status as a nonprofit assumes that their is transparency in their “congregations
.” What the IRS or other Taxing Entities don’t know, is that in a “cult
” where all questioning is stopped, where you see the leader or teacher as a “living deity
” and that you will go to varja hell if you dare to have even bad thoughts about these lamas, i.e. using the varjayana teachings for group thought control, then these lama kleptocracies get to have free reign after they have cultified the “congregation
There are good Tibetan yogis out there who want nothing to do with these monkey shows. That’s what we are confusing with these kleptocrats.
15. anonAnon, on July 5, 2011 at 7:23 pm said:
Youre absolutely right about Tibetan history and how some Tibetans dont want us to look at it-Elsewhere on this site there is stuff about some guy whose book was banned by the New Kadampas—because it told the history of the deity they worship.
Thats it, if they keep us ignorant about the bullshit, they can play the game again, even though it already caused the fall of Tibet. As long as theres money to be made, who gives a sh%%
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with ‘pure view’
per se-ultimately such is the goal of Buddhism. The issue is the way certain Tibetans have skilfully manipulated the concept in order to facilitate abuse-therein lies the problem. If we dont note this subtle difference, we commit a huge downfall. Here, the problem lies with the messenger, not the message
16. Christie, on July 5, 2011 at 9:53 pm said:
words, Like we ‘commit a huge downfall
” or seeing “pure view
” as something absolute and therefore dualistically is the problem.
I think there is so much distortion of these things because of the third-stringer lamas that confuse the mahayana with Dzogchen , the vajrayana with the mahayana.
The huge downfall is when we as students , who did get the authentic dharma from the old lamas who were not here just for the money, who appreciated our culture, learned our culture and respected it, and really tried to plant the dharma in the west before these carrion crows took over, the downfall is when we sit back year after years and SAY NOTHING.
We also took vows to protect the authentic dharma from corruption and spiritual materialism. It is almost too late, because of the cowering and being coopted into lamaism, NOT what the Buddha taught, nor what the authentic dharma teachers taught.
These people should be exposed. They are in the west, in OUR CULTURE, not 8th century Tibet. They lost their country because of this corruption and they are so thick and stupid this bunch, they are doing it all over again.
It is these lamas that are pots that are turned upside down, that are willing to compromise the teachings for their labrangs and filling their pockets with money, for the sex and the power, and they should be swept away! Then the real teachers might emerge.
The few Tibetan Lamas wont speak out publically because they have been trained to never speak out . Its up to us.
If the dharma is to be planted authentically in the west, not this hodgepodge of psychotherapy/lite/ newage religion light that will be another “ism” used not to wake us up , but to become empty rituals and the selling of the dharma, the very thing that happened in Ol Tibet .
These lamas lost their own country, it wasn’t the Chinese that took it away from them because they didn’t care about their own people. NO COMPASSION>
17. anon, on July 5, 2011 at 10:09 pm said:
“Confuse the mahayana with Dzogchen , the vajrayana with the mahayana
Unless you are follower a of Namkhai Norbu ora Bonpo, I find it strange that you do NOT see Dzogchen as Maahayana, or consider vajrayana distinct from the Mahayana-these are fundamentals and to not know this makes me wonder where you are coming from.
However,I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis of the third generation of money grabbing power crazed ego maniacs who call themselves as well as your analysis of the current Buddhism being a mish mash of numerous pseudo spiritual therapies running all the way from crystals to colonic irrigation,
This I am afraid is the face of Modern Buddhism.
It took the Tibetans centuries to destroy what we are managing, with their assistance, to bring to its knees in virtual moments SAD
Stay devoted to your teacher and follow the genuine Dharma-the truth will out.
Trungoa said devoting yourself to a charlatan is like falling asleep on someone else’s horse; eventually, it returns to its genuine owner. Again, remember the Taoist addage: Stand to the side of the river and watch the body of your enemy float by.
The time is coming
18. Christie, on July 6, 2011 at 12:46 am said:
Dozgchen is not even considered Buddhism, but radical Dzogchen teachrs and they are very very clear about this, but it came through the vehicle of Buddhism often.
Dzogchen is not part of the three yana (actually 9 yana ) system of Tibetan Buddhism
Namkai Norbu Rinpoche, was a Bonpo influenced teacher as well with great integrity. His western dharma heir and son seems to be teaching his lineage of Dzogchen teachings from what I hear. Namkai Norbu who was very clear about this, as are all good Dzogchen Teachers.
Keith Dowman and others who teach radical Dzogchen Lamas often put down these teachings because they are so empowering, and if you are empowered you are not in these third-stringers clutches for the rest of your life.
Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachings, although a gradual path were always coming from the Dzogchen view. He also taught on “idiot compassion
” which is what is pervasive now, using the mahayana teachings (that always said one had to have a realization of emptiness and one had to take care of ones own spiritual awakeing before you could ever help anyone else. Now we have the mahayana lite as well, with the psycho/buddhist lites running around trying to “help” . It is a complete distortion of the mahayana teachings as well.
I suggest Namkai Norbu’s very clear teachings on this, which he always emphasizes in all of his teachings and books: That Dozgchen is NOT Buddhism, and is not part of the 9 yana system. Many people are confused about this because of the way the 3rd stringers are teachings these days, because they don’t get this themselves. Namkai Norbu also wrote eloquently in a little book called “Buddhism and Psychology
” about the dangers of conflating and watering down Buddhism with psychotherapy, they are distinct lineages, psychotherapy is often used to help people conform to the society they are in and has also been used as an arm of State control in dictatorships, (just imagine what psychobuddism, with psychobuddhism as the new “happy face
” conforming religion of the new 21st century feudalism, when the middle class is completely eroded and there are only the very rich and the rest of us.
Can you imagine how they can repress us and brainwash us with the new age psychobuddhism? Most dharma groups within these lamas scenes now are completely asleep after twenty years of this.
They are into pseudo harmony and cult-like behavior where no questioning is allowed with psychotherapy thrown in. . These two things have opposite uses. Now you have psychotherapists-lite getting a little Buddhism-lite and using it on their resumes.
Just go to the Spirit Rock site and see the list of teachers and their credentials . [www.spiritrock.com
] and see how they have conflated the two
The authentic Dharma on the other hand is radical, its to wake people up from controls and conditioning One was taught to question everything, and test a teacher for 12 years (Patrul Rinpoche’s advise on finding a spiritual teacher).
: By the time one has sat in the milieu testing a prospective teacher for 12 years, one is no longer objective. You'd have to learn Tibetan, reside where the teacher lives, and be around people who do believe in the teacher. Most human beings, even PH.Ds and Psy.Ds will become influenced by the group setting they are in during this 12 years of 'testing the teacher' and lose their objectivity. Patruls classic advice is worse than useless, because it seems so sweetly reasonable as to lull us into false security)
(Christie continues)Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche , whatever people think of his lifestyle, always taught us to question everything , particularly spiritual scenes. That one should never, never become part of a herd, but do not trust, because you will be captured as the herds panic. That’s a beautiful poem about this he wrote in Mudra in 1968, when he took off those robes.
There may be still good lamas out there, but they are becoming fewer and far between and dying off as the third-stringer kleptocrats and their million dollar franchises world wide take over often with Chinese money now as they build their million dollar franchises where the new millionaires are in Tawain and Singapore and Malaysia, where Asians don’t ask questions are are used to this paradigm of gold throne lamas and rituals and abhishekas for “good luck” and prayers for a better life and good karma.
19. Anon, on July 6, 2011 at 7:52 am said:
“Dozgchen is not even considered Buddhism”
Two things to read: Dudjom Rinpoches “History and Teachings of the Nyingma tradition” and The Story of the frog in the well. Your initial statement shows you know nothing of Buddhist/bonpo/dzogchen history other than what you have been told by someone holding a narrow, insider perspective. Please avoid making such ridiculous statements as it only detracts from the credibility of your other comments which are frequently valid “Dozgchen is not even considered Buddhism” ???LOL
20. Anonymous, on July 6, 2011 at 8:05 am said:
Christie, you say: “I have been a Tibetan Buddhist for 30 years, these lamas, these third stringers are here for our money. These are NOT the Chogyam Trungpas who taught us to question everything and to speak out against corruption. That teaching was lost on most of us and now Political Correct causes have joined with PC liberal lite weight buddhism, and yes yes CTR was a serial philanderer but he didn’t demean women, he put them in positions of power all over his mandala, He loved women, and respected them. This Sogyal is a real abuser. These are not the Dilgo Khentse Rinpoches, not even the 16 th Karmapa who was about practice himself.
I’ve not had time to read all the posts here but excuse me if I just jump in on this bit which caught my eye…I think if you take issue with Sogyal then am suprised you are sort of glorifying and idealising some of Chogyam’s behaviour…I agree to some extent about their need for money, but most of it, is going to projects where they badly need help. If there is a bit of Robin Hood behaviour in that, so what? You don’t have to give. Tibetan buddhism has left you with a huge axe to grind. That’s very, very sad, as some of what you say is valid but condemning everyone and all the teachers discounts the enormous benefit to many of us Westerners. I am guessing you don’t practice at all now. What we who chose to deify and apply Christian type concepts onto Tib buddhism forget is that no matter the shite out there, the light is within. Training the mind is as valid as it ever was, getting lost in condemnation and wholesale lama-bashing, merely reflects that perhaps you never got the point.
21. Anon, on July 6, 2011 at 8:06 am said:
BTW You are clearly a follower of Namkhai Norbu who recently, on the death of Khyentse Sangyum, wrote:
“To the supreme tulku, Sogyal Rinpoche, noble vajra brother of unequalled love and kindness
I would suggest you do not add to the virulent rumours concerning Chogyal Namkhai Norbus attitude towards Sogyal Lakar and maintain a considered and diplomatic stance, like your teacher. Repeating the gossip of the disciples only lowers to the tone of the whole tradition
22. Anon, on July 6, 2011 at 8:07 am said:
the last message was for christie
23. Anonymous, on July 6, 2011 at 8:37 am said:
Christie, your posts could be summarised into a tshirt slogan reading:
’30 years of tibetan buddhism and all I got was this axe.’
24. Anonymous, on July 6, 2011 at 9:36 am said:
Christie you wrote in response to my telling you The Guardian deletes posts at the drop of a hat that:
“This is BIG BIG Business in the States. Do I think that they would write to remove a post re: their connections with Sogyal, of course because their multi-million dollar franchises, and books and coopted psychotherapists lite, are all dependent on their connections with each other. Salzberg has been on Oprah shows. This is Buddhism for the masses, a buddhism lite/self help multimillion dollar enterprise. They would cover this up to save their economic lives.
They would have their PR media machine move right in, as soon as they saw this article.
I think this should be of great concern that a newspaper like the Guardian would succumb to this kind of censoring. It ONLY happened because these people’s names were mentioned in connection with Sogyal and the scandal. Pundarika , Tsoknyi R ‘s group has a fairly big presence in Britain.”
Go back and read the Community Guidelines on CiF. You are barking up the wrong tree if you honestly believe people Salzburg et al are in contact with the Guardian about your posts! That is some ego you have there. Get a grip, man. If they were, believe me, your posts here would have been deleted, and someone would have been in touch with DI webmaster. Why not ask them. Paranoia and axe…nothing else. You won’t believe me, I know
25. Z, on July 6, 2011 at 12:52 pm said:
Still Christie makes an important point. It’s all the fairly good Lamas who associate with SR (who I am sure cannot know all the details of his behaviour behind closed doors or fully understand the unhealthy group dynamic within Rigpa), who endorse him as a Vajrayana Master.
They are the ones who should be informed about exactly what is going on. So anyone who does have contact with these or other Lamas/Western Teachers really should speak up. Perhaps the next step is to arrange conferences.
26. Christie, on July 6, 2011 at 1:43 pm said:
My point is this:
Start reading the true history of lamaism, I suggest Melvyn Goldsteins excellent 2 volume book on the longest lasting feudal theocracy in the world, that enslaved and enserfed their OWN people.
As long as you still have one “big toe
” still in these lamaist theocracy cults , you will attack people who say anything against your clinging to the belief that this has ANYTHING to do with what the Buddha actually taught.
These lamas have been trained since they were 4 or 5 years old to believe that they are” incarnate living being
”s on those thrones .
They have been taken from their families and raised by old men in a rigidly structured patriarchy where they become the “schills
” for their big money making machines. Most of them hate it at first, and try to rebel but the controls are too great, and soon they believe the mythological narratives about themselves..
They are true narcissists that have a fundamental trauma that is covered over by being glorified as living gods on these thrones.
THis is not what the buddha taught, and to argue about whether Dzogchen includes mahayana teachings is missing the whole point of the original argument. That’s what buddhists always do , they take the argument away and talk about something else, because the cognitive dissonance is too great to really investigate these things.
Everyone wants to believe that they are studying what the buddha taught, in these Lama theocracies, they are not. They are studying a mishmash of animism/Mongol Khan mayahanism, that the Khans saw as very effective to enslave whole people into focusing on “karma
” and reincarnation, and future lives instead of realizing that they were being enslaved, and theocratic hindustani priestly brahmin “buddhism
” that was coopted by the Hindus to repress people again, after the buddha died is what these lamas are really manifesting.
this is correct. Get and read Heissig's book "The Religions of Mongolia
". Full history of the pre-Buddhist shamanic beliefs and rituals of the Mongolian tribes, and a detailed history of how one Mongol prince and then additional princes, made alliances with the Gelukpas in Tibet to come to Mongolia in the 16th century. Many Geluk monks were sons of princely families and worked hard to missionize the tribes, even destroying their idols and ritual objects, replacing them with Mahakala. And it was a Mongol prince who gave the title Dalai Lama to its first recipient. Politics, folks. )Christie
continues)Throw in a misuse of the vajrayana teachings to keep whole groups enslaved,taking vows to never criticize the teacher, never ask questions of the master, etc. when those teachings were supposed to be between a yogic teacher and disciple or a small group of disciples, who had tested each other for years.
Now throw in psychotherapy with this mishmash of buddhism, just as Kornfield and company has done and we have the perfect storm for a new age religon , with a little meditation to keep us “calm
” and peaceful from ever using our critical intelligence again.
Lamaism turns intelligent people into complete sheep in a matter of a few years. Why do you think the most brutal societies have had “Buddhism” as a religion? Because this distorted buddhism is so effective in keeping people in line, worried about their next life and censoring all passion and individualism.
(The Chinese emperors were very glad to continue sponsoring Gelukpa Buddhism among their Mongol subjects--the Chinese government wanted the Mongols to become and remain docile and manageable.
various ways of doing this were for the Chinese imperial government to recognize a multitude of Mongolian 'living Buddhas' so that no one of them would have too much influence, and to create a banner system among the tribes to insure no one tribe would become too powerful.
Gengis Khan, who created the world empire, was an animist.
Tamurlane, was a Muslim Mongol.
Babur, a decendant of Timurlane ('Timur') and forged the beginnings of a new Mogul empire in India, was Muslim.
The last thing the nervous emperors, whether Ming or Manchu, wanted was for the Mongols to rise again.
And the lamaistic Buddhism taught to the Mongols did not keep them from becoming tragic customers of intoxicating Chinese liquor. Missionary James Gilmour who arrived in Mongolia as a doctor in the 1870s, was dismayed to see that the Buddhism practiced devoutly co-existed with robbery, lying, and an epidemic of addiction to alcohol that was ruining national health. Funds paid to lamas for exorcisms and burial often led to poverty for families when too many members were ill or had died. By the 1870s, the monasteries were medievally rich and the country was poor.
Gilmour noted that a great hindrances was that his Mongol friends thought they needed to learn nothing new--for they had Buddhism. They thought all others were ignorant.
(James Gilmour, Among the Mongols
It would be a tragedy if this ignorant complacency were to become entrenched in the West--at the very time when we need all our wits about us.
We are also living in cash strapped times. How many lamaistic fiefdoms--tax exempt--can we support?