Hi Anticult,

I WAS into the New Thought movement, but maybe not so much so that I couldn't get out. I actually started reading skeptics' blogs and this website, especially those threads you've mentioned, about a year ago, and even while I was still in it, I continued to enjoy skeptic websites as well. I found the people to be intelligent and forthright, and I admired their clear thinking. Maybe on some level that kept me from becoming fully entrenched.

Oh, The Secret and the related Powerful Intentions message boards (another place I'm allergic to for a while) are very much involved with New Thought and The Science of Mind and Christian Science. That place is chock full of Christian Scientists and Science of Mind followers and ministers, as well as "Abers". Sometimes a Rosicrucian would show up. (I happen to have a copy of The Science of Mind book, of course, but I found that I felt grumpy the whole time I was reading it...something about it bugged me and I couldn't put my finger on it at the time.)

I'm still getting used to dealing with life and tolerating problems and NOT automatically turning to magical thinking to try to make things go *my* way. As I do so, dealing with the real and the here and now, I feel myself becoming healthier and stronger and more willing to face challenges, rather than trying to run away from them by avoiding thinking about them and/or using other 'new thought' types of coping mechanisms.

Through all of that, I was still able to step back and see the big picture of the New Thought movement and New Age movements and on some level I was concerned about where it was all going. I was also concerned about the attitudes and ethics of people involved in this. Anyone who has read The Secret threads and the Abraham Hicks threads on this board (and maybe the Hay House thread--yes, I was into *that* stuff too!) would have seen a sample of that already.

At the moment, I just wanted to post links to the Oprah/Abraham-Hicks interviews. I was trying to avoid sites that required a person to download mp3's. I don't like downloading from unknown people and I couldn't recommend it to others either. These links are myspace pages, and I hope they work.

Part I:

[vids.myspace.com]

Part II:

[vids.myspace.com]


Part III:

[vids.myspace.com]

Ah...so if you were looking around at skeptic websites and DOUBTING then you were not really into New Thought 100%!
You needed to believe harder!
:-)
(kidding)
That is the trap, of course. The only way, they say, you can really get it to "work" is to Believe 100%, otherwise, just that shred of doubt will create itself. (which is bullshit).
So if a person really really really wanted to go for New Thought 100%, then you have to FORCE yourself to Believe 100% 24/7.
Which is impossible...so then you go mental, basically. Or delusional.
Or wake-up.
Or if the person makes money off it as a Practioner...you just pretend you Believe 100%.

But I think since Oprah is a famous Billionaire, it must seem like some of its true for her.
But Oprah put on a bunch of weight this year...if New Thought were true, that should be "easy" right? To not over-eat?
So people Delude themselves.
The Jon Stewart show last night showed a clip of Oprah doing her fake-hype-job 10x for all sorts of products...and compared it to her political hype now.
Oprah is a fantastic salesperson.

One wonders if her Oprah school might also be a New Thought "experiment" to see if they can get children to believe that stuff 100%? One hopes not, that has been tried many times, and it FAILS EVERYTIME. It screws the kids up. Talk to kids who grew up Christian Scientists.


I bet many of those people crawling those New Thought web-boards all had websites, and were looking for people to "Facilitate" others for a mere $100 a session..

Ernest Holmes and Science of Mind I found to be the least "negative". but the entire Religious Science thing-in-itself is built on a false assumption...Monism. He just states..."All is Mind".
Well, says who?
What if All isn't Mind?
Well, then you're screwed!

But a fun positive thing to do AFTER New Thought...is that a person can still keep most of the good ideas...just keep them as Metaphors, and myths, like the Joseph Campbell stuff.

For example, some of the ideas and images of New Thought, can be flipped into scientific Transhumanism, and what Carl Sagan talks about in Pale Blue Dot.
So a person can still imagine cool future-stuff for fun...but you just know its Imagination, and not objective reality! Big difference.

Also, the idea that Thought Creates Reality, can still be used somewhat. Cognitive Psychology shows that Thoughts do create INTERNAL reality. Big difference.
And then those internal beliefs influence our external reality through our behaviors.

And if a tree-branch false on our head...no, we didn't create it, we just got randomly bonked on the head...
So its much better than the silly fake-Secret that doesn't work.

So just those 2 things...take the Big Vision of New Thought, and just treat it like a mythological metaphor, and the idea that Thought creates internal reality...Constructivism...and we can influence our lives through our behaviors which stem from our Beliefs, and there is randomness in the universe so lets get over it!

Then you keep some of the good stuff, and get rid of the bad stuff.

also, the idea that humans will become like New Thought GODS is a recipe for MISERY. Impossible goals make humans miserable.
Instead, its better to embrace Humanism, and just be happy being a goddamn normal human being! What is wrong with being a human, and strive for healthy excellence and self-acceptance, etc? Isn't it ironic that their unhappiness comes from them not accepting that they are a human? And their solution is to try and become a God by MindMagic? Which will only make them more miserable and in Denial.

So its ironic, that doing all the New Thought stuff, will make people more unhappy, and less successful and less-competent in life.
As far as I can see, it does the opposite of what they say it does.

I think its mainly the Confirmation Bias that traps people.
[skepdic.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2008 09:50PM by The Anticult.

Great posts, Anticult. You obviously know a lot about this stuff. (My replies will be in bold)

Anticult said:

Ah...so if you were looking around at skeptic websites and DOUBTING then you were not really into New Thought 100%!
You needed to believe harder!
:-)
(kidding)

! [Haha! Apparently! ;-)]

That is the trap, of course. The only way, they say, you can really get it to "work" is to Believe 100%, otherwise, just that shred of doubt will create itself. (which is bullshit).

[Not to mention circular thinking.]

So if a person really really really wanted to go for New Thought 100%, then you have to FORCE yourself to Believe 100% 24/7.

[Oh, I went at it quite zealously…or so I thought!]

I bet many of those people crawling those New Thought web-boards all had websites, and were looking for people to "Facilitate" others for a mere $100 a session.

[Yes, this is true. Some of the “abundant members”, who are paying $15 a month, have their own webpages on the site and they are using this to promote their businesses. Some of these folks are into ‘life coaching’, that sort of thing.]


Which is impossible...so then you go mental, basically. Or delusional.
Or wake-up.

. [I happen to love being a human being on good old planet earth, and I couldn’t quite let go of that completely.]

Oprah put on a bunch of weight this year...if New Thought were true, that should be "easy" right? To not over-eat?

[Or she figured it wasn’t the food that would make her fat, it was her thoughts and beliefs about the food that would make her fat. Perhaps she was trying to make herself believe that the food wouldn’t make her fat and she could eat whatever she wanted as long as she “believed”…From the look of her these days, this isn’t working too well. I have an aunt who has also been packing on the pounds with that same line of reasoning. She figures she can eat three pieces of cake after each meal and nothing is going to happen because she’s practicing the teachings of The Secret.]

...you keep some of the good stuff, and get rid of the bad stuff

[Exactly! There is nothing wrong with trying to keep a positive attitude and seeing the good side of things. A person can also use visualization to imagine himself doing something, succeeding at something, and even in decision-making processes to imagine the outcome of various decisions he might make. ]

also, the idea that humans will become like New Thought GODS is a recipe for MISERY. Impossible goals make humans miserable.

[Yes, there are those who follow this who actually make the statement, “I am God”.]

Instead, its better to embrace Humanism, and just be happy being a goddamn normal human being! What is wrong with being a human, and strive for healthy excellence and self-acceptance, etc? Isn't it ironic that their unhappiness comes from them not accepting that they are a human? And their solution is to try and become a God by MindMagic? Which will only make them more miserable and in Denial.

. [The stuff that Oprah is pushing these days seems all geared toward getting people to deny and give up everything that makes them human…I mean, superficially, she appears to be promoting ‘living your best life’, but the so-called spiritual material that she promotes is all about ‘transcending’ that, leaving behind your very ‘self’ as a thinking, individual, human being.]

So its ironic, that doing all the New Thought stuff, will make people more unhappy, and less successful and less-competent in life.
As far as I can see, it does the opposite of what they say it does.

. [Absolutely! I found myself less tolerant and less able to cope with even minor problems and working very hard to avoid anything and anyone I thought was even the slightest bit ‘negative’…and I would get extremely upset if my attempts to ‘protect myself from the unwanted’ were unsuccessful. Even in the short time since I’ve left this behind me, I am dealing with things and coping with things and facing stuff I had been running away from, and I feel stronger and braver every day.]

I think its mainly the Confirmation Bias that traps people.
[skepdic.com]

[Yes! These people are constantly harping on ‘thinking about what you want’ and ‘not thinking about what you don’t want’, and focusing on ‘gratitude’ for the things that you like and for the ‘wanted’ that comes your way, and if you do that, they teach, then you will get more of the same. Sounds good, right? Nothing wrong with gratitude and appreciation. However, it also creates that ‘confirmation bias’, I can see that now…Abraham/Hicks and The Secret ‘teachers’ harp and harp on not thinking about what you don’t want, just ignore the unwanted. Ignore it. I think this is how this sort of thinking does entrap people…it’s all about degrees. On a superficial level, it appears to be positive, beneficial, a healthy way to be and think, a way to be happy, focus on the positive, not the negative…but take that to a different degree, and it can lead to or reinforce delusional thinking as well.]

Oh, by the way, Oprah's doing her TV talk show on Eckhart Tolle and "A New Earth" today. I haven't had a chance to watch it and I won't be able to now...probably for the best anyway.

If anyone does see it, though, I invite your impressions of it.

hey, great responses. Sounds like you have come out of it, it really is a negative trap.

Yeah, you are probably right about the food thing too. Rhonda Byrne, and New Thought people have always said you can eat ANYTHING and NOT gain weight.
Its a lie.
Put Rhonda Byrne in a room, and watch her 24/7 for 3 weeks, and make her eat 5000 calories a day. She will gain about 1 lb a day. But they will NEVER submit to proper testing, they just make up bullshit as it sells so well.
So yeah, maybe Oprah thinks she can eat anything, and not gain weight.
Also, I heard her say a "gland" was acting up on her. Well, to New Thought, controlling a gland should be easy!

Anyway, I don't care how much someone weighs, of course.
but my point is that Oprah can do New Thought when its her money or fame talking! Not so easy when it comes to eating, and other things you can't buy.

I am very happy I missed the Oprah show about Tolle. Who needs to see it? It will follow the same pattern...
1) A New Earth is amazing, lots of Big Claims, CHANGE YOUR MISERABLE LIFE.
2) some weak token criticism, about is it Christian?
3) crush the weak token criticism.
4) more hype hype hype and Testimonials from hyped-up women of all demographics.

Its clear that Oprah wants to CHANGE THE BELIEFS of her audience.
Will she succeed? Or will her audience rebel?
Here is the transcript of her show...

A New Earth Phenomenon: An Hour That Can Change Your Life
[www2.oprah.com]

my god, just glancing at the Oprah ET show...what a COMEDY FARCE.
They say its about getting over the Ego...but its all about...
EGO VANITY...losing some weight!!
:-)
Humans really are frickin' crazy...no question...
lose your Ego, so you can have more money, and be skinnier, etc.!!!

[www2.oprah.com]


here's the Religious objection...as predicted.
[www2.oprah.com]

christ consciousness pitch
[www2.oprah.com]

blah blah blah

yep! I watched about 30 minutes of the show, as I was thinking, one cannot really comment about something when one does not know what it is all about, but it was just so simplistic and as you say "blah blah blah"; a simplified version of Goenka-ji's teaching of Vappasena, Budihism, Zen, but at the bottome of it, it all sounded so much like Landmark, with all their little catch phrases, about being in the moment, your "story" and so on...and I am tempted to ask all these newly "highly evolved, spiritually enlightened" individuals, will you accept ME, even if I don't read the books and take the "classes"...will you be able to converse with ME without judging me if I don't buy into this PROPAGANDA? or will you, like the Johavahs Witnesses, "excommunicate" me? -- i guess time will tell. I would also like to see how EVOLVED all these miss goody two shoes are in five year's time - i think it will be very interesting to see how all this unfolds over time.

But, i could not sit through the whole show, it was such a bunch of drivel...

enuf said,
Shad

PS:
one thing I didn't mention is I don't think Oprah is evil or a bad person, or whatever, not anywhere near the low-level of a Byron Katie type. Who knows what really motivates her? She must really believe that stuff, and as the lifestyle of a famous rich celebrity could make life seem like New Thought, as whatever Oprah wants she gets, usually for FREE as she is so famous.
Maybe she is just naive in these areas? Too spoiled now by the massive fame? Just think, everywhere she goes now, she is almost worshipped by hundreds and millions of people, so Fame of that level can really mess people up. So who knows what is really going on in Oprah's head.

The real problem is Oprah is directing people to these New Age cult type leaders.
But there must have been many of these NewAge New Thought culty leaders trying to get to her for years. These are not stupid people, they are very sophisticated people, very indirect.
So one assumes by this point Oprah has some type of "secret Guru"?
She did say that Abe-Hicks is in the background...one wonders who else?
Keep your eye out for Oprah's Guru of New Thought...its not ET, he is just the appetizer...who' the main course?


As far as that show, I glanced at the last part...
Check out this cultish gibberish...connected of course to self-promotion of Quincy's Jones daughters career!

God Bless America....Lose your Ego, while getting skinny, sexy, rich, famous, married, bigger house, new cars...only in America can you lose your Ego, and gain more Stuff.

What makes it hilarious, is that they don't even seem to get the irony of it...

----------------------
[www2.oprah.com]
During the Chapter 3 class of Oprah and Eckhart's Web class, Kidada Jones, daughter of legendary music producer Quincy Jones, asked a question that resonated with many people. "This book hits me really, really deep in my heart, and I know it to be the truth, but I have such resistance. And I feel like if everything in form is an illusion, it feels really disenchanting," she said. "I'm at a point in my life where I have goals, I'm excited about my career, I want to have kids, I want to meet a great partner. If it's all illusion, where is the fun?"

Oprah says she was afraid she and Eckhart did not fully answer that question, but Kidada says the answer became clear during the class on Chapter 4. "I would have to say that his very specific instructions of feeling the subtle body breathing, paying attention to nature…those very specific instructions brought a space into my life that I haven't experienced," Kidada says. "Within the space came all of these gifts—compassion, patience, newfound oneness. All of my time kind of slowed down. Everything just kind of had brakes. When I pay attention to those very specific directions, it's a whole new reality for me."

Kidada says her mind used to be like a moving freeway, but slowing down has been like lifting a veil. "I feel a greater sense of confidence," she says. "I feel a greater sense of togetherness. I feel like we're all on the same path. We're all headed to the same thing, and there's no need to be judgmental."


[www2.oprah.com]
Jenny says a passage on page 8 of A New Earth helped her let go of her negative emotions. On this page, Eckhart writes, "When you can recognize the unconsciousness in you, that which makes the recognition possible is the arising consciousness, is awakening. You cannot fight against the ego and win, just as you cannot fight against darkness. The light of consciousness is all that is necessary. You are the light."

Although she and her husband are still separated, Jenny says she now reacts to her husband without anger. "Reading Tolle and accepting what he is and realizing that advice about pain-bodies, we're just trying to be built up, and our egos were trying to be inflated, that really helped me," she says. "When I read Eckhart say that's what was happening, to not do that, and to let go, that was quite a relief."

Here is a link to the Oprah messageboard about this recent show. Its mainly True Believers in a manic mental state, and some angry Christians (and it appears that most critical comments were deleted by the Oprah staff), with a couple of skeptics.
Check out some of this text, and the LGAT style cultic fanaticism. This is going to end very badly for Oprah...unless she can continue to walk that fine line...and slowly convert the masses to her way of thinking, uses the internet like she is doing.
So its a good idea to keep an eye on this, and see what happens over the next year or so, and see if another Guru comes into the picture, someone to take people "deeper" than Eckhart Tolle.


[www.oprah.com]

"Apr 6, 2008 6:22 PM
I had the fortunate experience of attending this taping. One of the things that resonated in me throughout the morning was the powerful sensation of the collective awakening. There were hundreds of us in one space who all have been awakened. We had conversations, shared moments, and an produced an incredible energy because we all "get it". I'd like to challenge each person to add one more individual to your heightened awareness. Pass your new book on - and lets make this one of the best things that has ever happened on the Earth. Thank you, Eckhart, for helping us awaken. Thank you, Oprah, for all you do to promote what is beautiful on our planet!"
-----------------------------
As my awareness ot the truth of the New Earth blossoms, I seem to becoming more conscious of the unawareness of others. Those who are my friends now seem full of idle chatter, habits of shopping and constant busyness...and I seem to becoming more judgmental of them as we now have less in common. I am however, through this consciousness , working to see that this is merely their ego at work and my ego - and beyond these egos we are bound in humanity.
---------------------------
Oh Oprah, what can I say. You have truly gone over the edge. i want to thank you for being one of the first to speak up about sexual child abuse. Your story made realize that it what happended to me wasnt my fault. And that I can over come and be a better person because of what happened as a child. But now, sheeshh. your own religion. Have you gone mad? This will be my last post because I am going to unsubscribe today. I have also taken your shows off of TIVO. I will continue to pray for you. You have let your fans down. Funny, you wouldnt be who you are today, it wasnt for your fans.

Anticult said:

"The real problem is Oprah is directing people to these New Age cult type leaders.
But there must have been many of these NewAge New Thought culty leaders trying to get to her for years. These are not stupid people, they are very sophisticated people, very indirect.
So one assumes by this point Oprah has some type of "secret Guru"?
She did say that Abe-Hicks is in the background...one wonders who else?
Keep your eye out for Oprah's Guru of New Thought...its not ET, he is just the appetizer...who' the main course?"

Who's the main course? Well, I just read Andrew Norton's Tom Cruise biography, and Norton states that the Scientologists have been trying to recruit Oprah, and she does have Scientologist friends, so who knows? It gave me chills when I tried to imagine that combination--Oprah and Scientology.

I've read the excerpts from the links you posted, and I am still finding that I'm just not getting it. I mean, I can't relate to their way of thinking, I can't get a handle on where they are coming from. (And that's a good thing!) In fact, it's making me go "Ugh!" I mean, some of what these people are saying doesn't even seem to make sense. I feel a mixture of horror and pity as I read what the followers of Tolle and Oprah are saying...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2008 11:25AM by DownToEarth.