Oh well Suzy, I suppose we'll have to disagree. Maybe you, Mr. Tolle, and Osho did suffer some kind of identity crisis that you've all mistaken for some state of enlightenment. I have also suffered from depression, been diagnosed by a doctor and given prescription medication. I took the medication for two days and quit because I had a deep sense that medication was only masking a solvable problem. I took up meditation and while meditating I clearly saw, in almost and instant, the root cause of depression within my psychological makeup. Basically, it was caused by a pattern of habitual thinking patterns that I had learned to identify with over a long period of time. I could also clearly see that I was not these thoughts any more than a computer program you installed on your computer IS you computer. If you strip thought down to it's essential nature you can clearly see that, although it often serves a valuable purpose, you exist completely independent from thought. The present moment is the actual place that connects you to the real world. And thought, by it's very nature, is always a partial or complete escape from your connection to the real world. I have vocal lessons tonight and thinking is important because I need to make sure I get there on time. But what a waste of time and energy my thinking is if I spend the whole afternoon thinking about whether the lesson will go well or if I am a good enough singer or not.

So, in summary, I don't know whether or not these people are enlightened or simply suffer from some kind of psychosis. Enlightenment is not necessarily a "mind stopping technique" as described above and maybe forcing the mind to stop could actually cause someone might mistake as enlightenment. Enlightenment is the non-attachment or non-identification to thought and not the stopping of thought. Forcing the mind to stop thinking in not enlightenment. True enlightenment is healthy and natural and definitely not a disassociation with your daily life and routine. Enlightenment is simply being connected with the present moment and dealing with whatever happens to present itself in that moment. When it's over you leave it behind and move on to the next one. Identifying with thought leads to self-obsession and you can see this equally in the egomaniac and in the severely depressed.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of either Eckhart Tolle or Osho's writings. I'm not saying they aren't/weren't enlightened people but I am implying that a lot of what they do seems to be disingenuous and shortsighted. Both have seemed to become completely obsessed with their own self-perceived enlightenment and that makes me very cautious of what it is their actually teaching. Both seem to have a need for attention that an ego-less person would not have a need for. So I'm not necessarily defending these particular individuals but I do feel a need to defend the benefits of mindful awareness as a path toward happiness and mental stability. I'm only defending Mr. Tolle because, although I'm not a huge fan of his writings, I have never heard of him taking advantage or hurting other people and definitely don't think he has done anything to warrant his classification as a cult leader other than having a bunch of Oprah watchers buy into his writings. If this thread had been about Osho I might have agreed. He appeared to either promote or turn a blind eye to the cult behavior that developed within his organization.

There's been lots of assertions about "mind-stopping" techniques and how they are harmful but I haven't seen much concrete evidence or insightful explanation into why some of you think this is so. I have a regular job and leave the house and have to deal with people every single day. It's so obvious to me that a persons level of neurosis is directly related to their compulsive obsession with thoughts about past and future events that I'm surprised anyone is worried in the least about whether or not mindfulness, or the absence of thought, is even worth discussing.

I'm open for debate on the issue if anyone feels up to it.

Thanks for the info Suzy, I think you hit it right on the mark.

By what is really disturbing about this, is that Oprah is absolutely promoting the hell out of this thing, almost everyday she is selling selling selling ET to the millions, with not one tiny iota of critical thought about it. And she is doing it very craftily, by not showing him, and making him seem 'mysterious'. This will lure more people in.

Its all hype for some 10-week course she is promoting from Eckhart Tolle ET, that is going to be hosted on the Oprah site. So Oprah has gone into business with this guy.

By the way, the burden of proof is on Oprah and Eckhart Tolle.
They are selling it, they have to PROVE their claims. They have not done this. Anecdotes are NOT proof.
[skepdic.com]

For an example, many have spoken about a new area in psychology called Mindfulness. This is taking some of these types of ideas, and then TESTING them on people, and seeing if they do reduce stress, increase subjective feelings of happiness, etc. Those things are measurable.
Others have also mentioned Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy, MBCT, which seems to be the best of both worlds. The key here is that it is being TESTED and applied by trained people in a way that makes sense.
[www.google.com]

Eckhart Tolle is opposed to science and testing. He is literally opposed to knowledge.
His ideas are self-contradictory, he decries the Mind, all the while using very dense linguistic cognition! Can't people even see that?
He is highly manipulative in his writing, luring people to BUY more of his products.
He decries the Ego, yet promotes himself like an Egomaniac, and is quite arrogant.
He claims he is a type of Monk, yet he is running a multimillion dollar company, selling all kinds of junk to people.

Instread of him being a Monk, its easy to picture him up late, smoking a cigar and drinking scotch, looking over his internet profits for the last month, and analyzing demographics, product lines, new books, etc.

There seem to be hundreds of these types of New Age Gurus out there, who sell a snake-oil pipe-dream, and who also seem to be a little bit crazy, yet at the same time operate like the most aggressive Entrepreneurial salespeople in the world.

Crazy like a fox.

One other amusing thing...Oprah keeps pumping this book, and it will stay #1 for as long as she does so.
But every 2nd 5-Star comment at Amazon, seems to be a self-shill.
They say things like....

ET's book is great, my shit don't stink no more, and I am now a sexy millionaire monk with tons of sex, money, houses, cars, and happiness, and my cancer got cured too, and I lost 50 lbs without dieting.
So BUY MY BOOK and visit RapidEvolution.org (or whatever).


They just use their Amazon review to shill their own book!!
The vultures see the carcass and they all swoop in to try and take their pound of flesh.
Its like a shark-fest over a whale carcass.

Its so ludicrous, its comical. There is an absurdity to it.
Its like those joke-books you buy, and its all blank pages.
Bundle The Secret with A New Earth, A New Secret Earth...where we are all skinny, sexy, millionaire monks with a new SUV.

People want to buy the opposite of what they are.

I totally agree. All these people who write books and claim to be experts. What a total fraud. Like James Dobson, the expert on the family who rakes in 100 million a year and tells everybody how to keep a family together. Too bad he's a total hypocrite since his very own son, Ryan Dobson is now on his second marriage. Good Job Dr. Dobson, next time I want to get a book on family matters, mabe I'll try one from Oprah's book club. It has to have better advice than anything you could give me.

Jesus4America:

Please stop promoting Oprah's book club here or any authors associated with her.

This is against the rules of the message board.

Hi left_of_the_dial,

You don’t have to defend mindfulness as a path to happiness and mental stability. No one is arguing against it here. It’s the harmful bunk these people (gurus) sell along with techniques such as mindfulness, staying in the present, not obsessing over past and future, meditation…etc (techniques that DO make people feel better) that I have a case against. Eckhart Tolle is selling himself as some sort of enlightened spiritual master when he’s no more “enlightened”, whatever that means, than you or I.

Suzy

as I keep saying: " I don't have to swallow arsenic to know that it will kill me"
Shad

Hi JackOscarLarm
this "watching the listener" sounds really similar to what I heard at one of the Landmark sessions that I attended as a guest of one of the participants....in my opinion it is just more of the same old scam, and I would not be at all surprised to learn that this new Eckhart is a disciple of the other Eckhart of EST notiority. (maybe he is one of his children, who really knows for sure where these people come from)??

rehards,
Shad

Someone, i can't remember who, said that Tolle is not calling himself a "guru". I dispute this, having checked out his site, along with his partner's (Kim), both of whom are resident in one of BC's most prestigeous and EXPENSIVE areas.

def: guru:
"Weighty one," indicating a being of great knowledge or skill. A term used to describe a teacher or guide in any subject, such as music, dance, sculputre, but especialy religion....According to the Advayataraka Upanishad(14-18) gurumeans "dispeller of darkness" reference:-Dancing With Siva (a sourcebook of Indian spirituality by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami (Kauai's Hindu Monastery, Kapaa, Hawaii.

Having check out both Tolle, and his partner Kim, it is clear they are basing theirr "teachings" and counselling on Eastern Spiritual practices...so, to that end, they are tacitly setting themselves up as "gurus" - actions speak louder than words, so there is no doubt in my mind that they percieve themselves as such.

Supporters of Tolle and his (master plan), can argue all they like, but this is the way i see it.

enuf said,
Shad

Here is a critical look at Eckhart Tolle's approach, from Steve Salerno's "SHAMblog":

Tolle Calls. Part 1 and Tolle Calls. Part 2