Good lord, question lady, THANK YOU for voicing something I have felt many a time. I cannot stand Trolle's gobbledygookspeak!

Quote
question lady
If I hear one more Tolle-head analyzing themselves and everyone around them with their" tricky ego" -"pain-body" gibberish I might have to go scream. My tongue is bleeding from biting it too often.

You can't say anything because a contrary point of view means you are coming from your ego and you need to be in the now.

Aaaarrrggggghhhhhh!

Okay. Just needed to vent in a safe place. Carry on.

How about when someone talks about 'tricky ego' or 'pain body' smile and say, 'They're making a toll call. Toll calls are expensive if they are too many or last too long.'

'Pain body.'

What happens when Tolle goes to the dentist? Does this mean he has dropped his own 'pain body' and can do without novocaine?

The cost of too many 'Tolle calls' could be flash freezing one's own human emotions--if someone makes pervasive use of this, he or she may stop growing and remain stuck and fail to resolve issues. The tricks just create a firewall around one's emotional reactivity but dont resolve it.

And what is 'now'? Now arises from a pattern of cause-and-effect that started in the past, long before we existed and that will continue after we are gone and another set of actors takes the stage.

And...to see 'now' as inherantly-separate from this seamless web of cause and effect is an act of ego-driven discrimination.

And ego driven discrimination, seeing reality as is not inferior to the ability to see reality unitively and seamlessly. We need to be able to do both, just as we need to use both feet to walk.

Notice how very many of these folks try to get us to believe we are trapped in history and can obliterate history, that we create our own reality, yet to market thier stuff, they always tell their personal story of instant enlightenment. Our story doesnt matter, but the guru's story is ultra important. Double standard, folks.

Freud said it well: most of us cannot stand very much reality.

So there is a perpetual market for anything, whether it is drugs or a cognitive trick that can be used to dissociate oneself from pain...either one's own pain or, other people's pain.

Just dismiss it as a trick of the ego. The vocabulary of dissociative tricks differs.

And rhetoric of invalidation--turn it back on the messenger, blame the victim, deny responsiblity by denying victimization is even real--the invalidation is the same, only the rhetorical tricks differ.

And better yet, find a framework where if anyoene says anything you dont like, you can spin it back on them and pathologize them.

You be doing something that is harming others (or at least pissing them off), and if someone dares point it out and suggest that you stop, you can accuse the person of projecting their issues onto you--meaning they are inherantly sick or crazy or ego ridden, or less evolved, merely for calling you on the effect your behavior is having on others.

In that kind of set up, you, the spinner, can never lose. You have an easy escape hatch, a 'beam-me-up' button.

On Star Trek, we watched Mr Spock. We enjoyed his perspective, but knew it had its limitations.

But with these techniques, we risk turning ourselves into Mr. Spock and getting trapped in the role.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2008 04:23AM by corboy.

Its strange what Oprah is doing promoting this stuff, but it does make sense.

She stated she believed in the Christ Consciousness idea, which basically means YOU can all get the Powers attributed Jesus Christ at some point...literally. Not just Enlightenment, but walking on water, turning loaves into fishes, Thought-Reading, and all of the other supernatural powers in the New Testament.

They put a lot of fancy words around it, but that is what it comes down to, in the books Oprah quotes.
So since Oprah believes that idea, and she also believes that God wants her to use her show to help with this, then it all makes sense.

But one wonders, why is everything so one-sided?
Why only bring on Eckhart Tolle, and not also some psychologist to talk about Mindfulness, and even a professional philosopher to analyze it?

Part of it is Sales 101.

But the other part is the Christ Consciousness mental-trap and Catch-22.
You see, if you really believe in the Christ Consciousness, then you CAN'T DOUBT IT.
By doubting it, you create what you doubt, so they think.
So the only way to achieve the Christ Consciousness is to believe it 100%, with no doubt.
Can't you believe it 99%?
No, then you won't get your Demonstration.
You have to believe it 100%.

So at least Oprah admitted she believed in the Christ Consciousness idea, so it does all make sense.

The problem is that its a mental trap, see above.
You can't allow doubt it, as they believe a doubt belief creates a doubt reality.
So the only way to Demonstrate the Christ Consciousness is 100% belief without doubt.

This is why Oprah promoted The Secret, which is based on New Thought, which is also the Christ Consciousness. Same thing.

By the way, none of this connects much with Eckhart Tolle's alleged idea of Egolessness, which is more of a Buddhist idea, which is not the same as the Christ Consciousness, it seems to me.

Also, Eckhart Tolle seems to me to be an Egomaniac, if anything. The guy claims on his own website that he is an Enlightened Master...imagine the supreme narcissism and hubris of putting something like that on your website! You have to be a pathological Egoist and hypocrite.
ET is no different than you or I, a human being.
The guy is a fraud.

Its too bad that Oprah gets duped by these skinny white-dudes, with their fancy-pants words.
Maybe one day she will wake-up.

On the other hand, Oprah did not get to be a billionaire by magic, she knows what sells, and what her audience wants. So maybe its also commerce as well.
Notice Oprah picked a very specific type of soft-spoken skinny-white dude to promote this stuff. She could have picked Michael Beckwith from The Secret...he believes the exact same thing....but that would not sell as well to Mrs America...

I guess Oprah thinks these skinny, soft-spoken white dudes are the least threatening?
Eckhart Tolle, Gary Zukav, John Gray, etc.

Too bad these guys may APPEAR less threatening, but they are also about 1000x more manipulative and passive-aggressive, and usually lack personal honor. Men see through that much easier, it seems. Its not the big hulking brutes you have to worry about, its the skinny white dude with the soft-voice, pasty-skin, and fake-smile you need to keep an eye on...

David Letterman has a good term for those guys... Weasels.
In all seriousness, notice that most cults are run by guys who fit that description.
Doug Henning from TM, Warren Jeffs, Rael...creepy.
Eckhart Tolle fits right in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2008 02:33AM by The Anticult.

It would be interesting to see what most "regular men" think about Eckhart Tolle.
I think the main response of normal men out there would be...."who is this idiot? He is full of shit".
Most "regular guys" have pretty good natural bullshit detectors...when it comes to men.
(But NOT when it comes to women, of course!)

One wonder if it works the other way too?
Are most of those who go for Eckhart Tolle, women? (not in a sexual way of course, I can't imagine ET has any sex appeal at all?? He must be sexually repulsive to women, one would hope????).

Most men do not trust other men who don't show a normal level of healthy male assertiveness. That is, men who don't display a normal, healthy male "Ego".
Most men immediately pick-up the guy who is not showing that, is hiding it, its passive-aggressive, and that's where the term "weasel" seems to apply.

Contrary to what ET says, its very UNHEALTHY to attempt to suppress one's natural assertiveness.
Its then going to flip into passive-aggressiveness.

So this is getting into subjective territory, but most "normal" men, are instantly going to see Eckhart Tolle for what he is...a fake-manipulator, who is a closet passive-aggressive.
ET makes out the male Ego as being the destroyer in human history, wars, etc, which is true.
But the answer to this is to not try and be completely passive, but a natural healthy assertiveness.
To attempt to go the other way into total passivity, is just as dysfunctional, and leads to a warped passive-aggressiveness.

Also, ET is NOT passive, as he claims. He is a shrewd self-promoter, but done in a hidden passive-aggressive way.

So I think most "regular men" see right through Eckhart Tolle in about 10 seconds.
But perhaps his market is mostly women?
Again, its just speculation, but it would be interesting to look into the demographics of it.


Eckhart Tolle is the Emperor New Clothes fairy tale in spades.
[en.wikipedia.org]
He is prancing around preaching Ego-Death, all the while using very dense cognition to do so.
Its EXACTLY like that old fairy tale "The Emperor's New Suit", where the Emperor Eckhart Tolle is naked, and it takes a simple child to say...PEOPLE, THE GUY IS A FAKE.

Eckhart Tolle: The Emperor's New Mind, The Emperor Has No Ego.
________________________________________________
[classiclit.about.com]
The EMPEROR's NEW SUIT by Hans Christian Andersen

Once upon a time there lived a vain Emperor whose only worry in life was to dress in elegant clothes. He changed clothes almost every hour and loved to show them off to his people.

Word of the Emperor's refined habits spread over his kingdom and beyond. Two scoundrels who had heard of the Emperor's vanity decided to take advantage of it. They introduced themselves at the gates of the palace with a scheme in mind.

"We are two very good tailors and after many years of research we have invented an extraordinary method to weave a cloth so light and fine that it looks invisible. As a matter of fact it is invisible to anyone who is too stupid and incompetent to appreciate its quality."

The chief of the guards heard the scoundrel's strange story and sent for the court chamberlain. The chamberlain notified the prime minister, who ran to the Emperor and disclosed the incredible news. The Emperor's curiosity got the better of him and he decided to see the two scoundrels.

"Besides being invisible, your Highness, this cloth will be woven in colors and patterns created especially for you." The emperor gave the two men a bag of gold coins in exchange for their promise to begin working on the fabric immediately.

"Just tell us what you need to get started and we'll give it to you." The two scoundrels asked for a loom, silk, gold thread and then pretended to begin working. The Emperor thought he had spent his money quite well: in addition to getting a new extraordinary suit, he would discover which of his subjects were ignorant and incompetent. A few days later, he called the old and wise prime minister, who was considered by everyone as a man with common sense.

"Go and see how the work is proceeding," the Emperor told him, "and come back to let me know."

The prime minister was welcomed by the two scoundrels.

"We're almost finished, but we need a lot more gold thread. Here, Excellency! Admire the colors, feel the softness!" The old man bent over the loom and tried to see the fabric that was not there. He felt cold sweat on his forehead.

"I can't see anything," he thought. "If I see nothing, that means I'm stupid! Or, worse, incompetent!" If the prime minister admitted that he didn't see anything, he would be discharged from his office.

"What a marvelous fabric, he said then. "I'll certainly tell the Emperor." The two scoundrels rubbed their hands gleefully. They had almost made it. More thread was requested to finish the work.

Finally, the Emperor received the announcement that the two tailors had come to take all the measurements needed to sew his new suit.

"Come in," the Emperor ordered. Even as they bowed, the two scoundrels pretended to be holding large roll of fabric.

"Here it is your Highness, the result of our labour," the scoundrels said. "We have worked night and day but, at last, the most beautiful fabric in the world is ready for you. Look at the colors and feel how fine it is." Of course the Emperor did not see any colors and could not feel any cloth between his fingers. He panicked and felt like fainting. But luckily the throne was right behind him and he sat down. But when he realized that no one could know that he did not see the fabric, he felt better. Nobody could find out he was stupid and incompetent. And the Emperor didn't know that everybody else around him thought and did the very same thing.

The farce continued as the two scoundrels had foreseen it. Once they had taken the measurements, the two began cutting the air with scissors while sewing with their needles an invisible cloth.

"Your Highness, you'll have to take off your clothes to try on your new ones." The two scoundrels draped the new clothes on him and then held up a mirror. The Emperor was embarrassed but since none of his bystanders were, he felt relieved.

"Yes, this is a beautiful suit and it looks very good on me," the Emperor said trying to look comfortable. "You've done a fine job."

"Your Majesty," the prime minister said, "we have a request for you. The people have found out about this extraordinary fabric and they are anxious to see you in your new suit." The Emperor was doubtful showing himself naked to the people, but then he abandoned his fears. After all, no one would know about it except the ignorant and the incompetent.

"All right," he said. "I will grant the people this privilege." He summoned his carriage and the ceremonial parade was formed. A group of dignitaries walked at the very front of the procession and anxiously scrutinized the faces of the people in the street. All the people had gathered in the main square, pushing and shoving to get a better look. An applause welcomed the regal procession. Everyone wanted to know how stupid or incompetent his or her neighbor was but, as the Emperor passed, a strange murmur rose from the crowd.

Everyone said, loud enough for the others to hear: "Look at the Emperor's new clothes. They're beautiful!"

"What a marvellous train!"

"And the colors! The colors of that beautiful fabric! I have never seen anything like it in my life!" They all tried to conceal their disappointment at not being able to see the clothes, and since nobody was willing to admit his own stupidity and incompetence, they all behaved as the two scoundrels had predicted.

A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage.

"The Emperor is naked," he said.

"Fool!" his father reprimanded, running after him. "Don't talk nonsense!" He grabbed his child and took him away. But the boy's remark, which had been heard by the bystanders, was repeated over and over again until everyone cried:

"The boy is right! The Emperor is naked! It's true!"

The Emperor realized that the people were right but could not admit to that. He though it better to continue the procession under the illusion that anyone who couldn't see his clothes was either stupid or incompetent. And he stood stiffly on his carriage, while behind him a page held his imaginary mantle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2008 04:10AM by The Anticult.

Saw a listing on the Oprah site about the PAIN-BODY.
Here they go with their cultic loaded-language...

Psychology is not good enough for Oprah and Tolle...they have to make up new stuff..
Oprah has totally crossed the line with this stuff...

too many cults, not enough time....

FYI, one can log into the Oprah site with an anonymous email, and then watch or get the transcripts of her sessions with ET.

I think Oprah has gotten a lot of criticism for this ET stuff.
I noticed on a list of her shows, she seems to have gone back to pregnant men, and 50 year old actresses posing nude, etc.

If she keeps trying to ram this New Agey cult stuff down people's throats, it might backfire on her.
But as they say, Power Corrupts.
Anyone who reaches a position where you have several hundred staff around you to do whatever you ask, surrounded by Yes-Women, loads of money coming in, crazed fans screaming for you everyday and almost fainting in your mere presence...
that would drive anyone INSANE!

that's why they say...Power Corrupts.
It really does.
That is why cult leaders can go so far off the deep end. They might even start as a cynic just to make money, and then all these people worshipping them, it goes to their head, and they lose it.

The Romans used to have a slave in the chariot with returning warriors, who during the victory parade would keep telling them they were ONLY A MAN, and not a Godman.
I guess the Roman's found out that warriors getting worshipped by a crowd could go berserk with their own Vanity.

So...Power Corrupts.
That's probably why so many celebrities get in these cults...they lose contact with reality normal people live in that keeps us in check...like when little old ladies elbow you in the gut to cut in front of you at the store...that keeps us SANE. Be thankful the teller at the store ignores you and then treats you rudely!
If you were Famous and Rich, everyone would be kissing your ass 24/7, and next thing you know you could start to lose contact with reality.

The guy likes his own voice, no matter how boring it is.....

[www.youtube.com]

You know, on my way out of the new agey cult-type stuff, Eckhart Tolle was THE thing that gave me the biggest push...OUT the door. Yes, ironic, eh?

I had tried to read The Power of Now quite a while ago, and not only could I not get into it, but I actually felt very negative about it. I stopped reading it. Then I heard about Oprah's big endorsement of "A New Earth". The book was super-cheap, so I picked up the paper back version to see what all the fuss was about. Reviews had said it was a lot more coherent than The Power of Now. By this time I was already starting to look askance at Oprah's behavior, so I wasn't ready to be taken in hook, line, and sinker by anything she said, did, or endorsed.

Throughout this, I was kind of drawing away from the Abraham-Hicks teachings and from being something of a "Secretard" as well. I tried reading "A New Earth" and I found my eyes were crawling over the words, but it just wasn't reaching me. And then I suddenly realized...I just didn't believe any of this stuff anymore.

It was just like that...I woke up. (Or pulled my head out of my arse, some might say.) It was probably a result of things I was reading on various websites, such as this one, as well as life experience and thoughts I was having, and it just all fell into place.

However, as I said on another thread, I am very vulnerable to getting sucked back in, so I'm going guru-free for at least a year and not so much as setting foot on one of 'their' websites, not even for research or academic purposes.

Now, about Oprah...I really enjoyed the article on cultnews about her. I definitely DO believe she is a cult leader and one of the most dangerous people in North America right now, especially when she starts telling folks how to vote.

Notice that she herself doesn't have any original teachings, nor does she express any original thoughts. She pulls together teachings from other avenues and presents it to the public as the path to enlightenment. She has this great website and social network, and it's all presented as a very lovey dovey high energy positive energy all earth healing supportive good thing...very appealing to the lost and the lonely.

She really delivers a double whammy right now, and this is why I say she is so dangerous. First, she is backing and encouraging her people to follow the Course in Miracles. I did the Course a while back, and it...nearly killed me. I mean, I had lost my will to live when I was in the thick of this stuff. (But I have a wonderful family, lots of love in my life, and I've always remained very connected to nature, so that held me here despite my despair.) The Course is a total attempt to change a person's entire thought system, a person's entire perception of reality itself. It leaves one incapable of dealing with the here and now, detaching from this world, detaching from everyone and everything that makes you human, that makes you "you". Everything you do and perceive, everyone around you, is not 'real' and has no meaning.

So your sense of reality is broken down, your ability to think critically is broken down, your attachments to home, job, people is broken down, your sense of 'self' is gone...and then here comes Oprah with Eckhart Tolle. Let's further destroy your personhood--your "ego".

And once you are totally broken down, then what? Isn't there a saying that nature abhors a vacuum? What are you going to fill it with? Well, I'm sure Oprah will find an answer for that, too.

By the way, did you know that Oprah is also a follower of Abraham-Hicks? She interviewed not only Jerry and Esther, but Abraham (the so-called channeled entity, the Hicks' imaginary friend) on her internet radio show. She said in that interview that she wouldn't go on TV with this because the public is not yet ready. Did you also know that Oprah had been into the teachings of Seth (channeled via Jane Roberts)...she told the Hicks' this in that interview as well. The Hicks' were big fans of Jane Roberts, probably got the idea for Abe from her. The link that I had to that interview is no longer active, and I haven't done a google search for it yet, but it might be somewhere on the internet, if anyone cares to look for it.

And now Oprah is going to have her own TV network, taking over Discovery Health. So everyone can imagine their way to slimness (I imagined my way to gaining 10 lb over the past year, thanks to The Secret! Guess I was having 'fat thoughts' about all that food I was eating!)...or a cure for cancer...or whatever...

DownToEarth, have you read the threads here about The Secret?

THE SECRET thread
[forum.culteducation.com]

There are also threads about A Course In Miracles...ACIM.
ACIM is just ridiculous, I had that book years ago.

There are also threads here about Abraham-Hicks.
[forum.culteducation.com]

The Hicks are just old-fashioned carnival barkers, out to make money money money.

Its interesting that Oprah has said the public isn't "ready".
What a complete load of utter steaming horseshit.
So its Oprah's job to make the public ready to accept HER religious beliefs?
Oprah is going to Reform Christianity in the USA? Not likely.

Oprah has done some decent stuff in the past, but she has lost it when it comes to this stuff.
Abe-Hicks, The Secret, Tolle, ACIM, etc, its all the same thing.

NEW THOUGHT.

this guy has a decent page about the origins of New Thought.
[websyte.com]

New Thought can be a terrible mental trap to get locked into. Christian Science is also New Thought.
It must be that since Oprah is rich and famous, it seems like New Thought is true for her. After all, when you are a famous billionaire, guess what? Anything you want can come to you at your command!
So it seems true.

New Thought can be a terrible trap to get locked into. Once you REALLY get into it, you can't get out.
But one way to get out, is to read a Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, that can help.
[skepdic.com]

But the facts are in, and its very clear. Oprah is a full-out True Believer in the New Thought Movement, which preaches the Christ Consciousness, or COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS. The Secret, Abe-Hicks, Eckhart Tolle, ACIM, and most of that other stuff are just versions of New Thought.
You know, its possible that Oprah believes that her and her TV show and media empire are THE way that the "Full Demonstration" of New Thought Christ Consciousness are going to be brought into reality. the Full Demonstation is when they believe humans who BELIEVE will start to have supernatural Christlike Powers...literally...not metaphorically.
I know all about New Thought, and when you are in the "inside" its very easy to believe stuff like that.

I just got chills down my spine.
I think its possible that Oprah believes that "God" is going to use her to usher in the New Thought Christ Consciousness period of human history.
If that is what she believes, and she has said that, Oprah will keep at this for many years, to try to CHANGE THE BELIEFS OF THE PUBLIC MIND...(that is called the "race mind").

So it does seem Oprah is going to become the only semi-revealed "leader" of the global New Thought movement. But from the inside, it would all make sense.
And since Oprah's wealth and fame shield her from "reality", how can she find her way out?
She might have to go way over the top, and crash and burn, and then hit bottom. Otherwise, she will just keep shoving it down the publics throats, to try and change the "Race Mind" as they call the publics "primitive beliefs" about "Reality".

It all makes sense, actually.

Its time to expose the flaws in New Thought, Cosmic Consciousness, Christ Consciousness.
The basic flaw of New Thought is actually very simple and basic, yet it can lock us in easily.