There seems to be a debate...who's worse? Eckhart Tolle or Byron Katire? ET or BK?

Eckhart Tolle is no bargain. He claims to be an Enlightened Master, and people believe him?
He bashes the Mind yet claims he has an "intense conscious presence of the teacher".
It is shocking that so many people seem to just believe anything anyone says.

Just short speeches here.
[eckharttolle.com]

but this is weird, groups where you meet in silence...and ALSO watch ET on TV for 2 hrs. That ain't right.
[eckharttolle.com]

But one gets the impression that ET would prefer to just sell you his stuff, and have you watch him on DVD so he can stay home.

But Byron Katie is an old-school charismatic leader, with a massive LGAT system, volunteers, etc

My vote is that Byron Katie is far far worse than Eckhart Tolle, many times over. But ET is no bargain, even at home.

Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
[forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2008 01:21PM by The Anticult.

SuzyQ, I appreciate the clarification. I suppose we just might have to agree to disagree about Eckhart Tolle though. All he teaches, as far as I can tell, is the importance of quieting the mind and being aware of the present moment. I don't know if the guy is enlightened or simply deluded but I haven't seen any evidence that he has tried taking advantage of anyone. The Oprah followers that buy his books and fatten his wallet most likely have more than enough money to spare. He is not forcing anything upon anyone and most of his "followers" seem to find comfort in his product. Fraud or not, I think his writings actually do offer a lot of good advice and might be more beneficial to someone than an extra gucci/coach product.

Personally, I find ET fairly harmless and somewhat entertaining. Part of his appeal is that he makes people feel good without actually pushing them to do much of anything and Oprah's crowd probably likes that kind of message. I just kind of see him as a person that stumbled upon some kind of wisdom and lets people pay him money to hear him talk about it. I"m not a big fan but, on the other, I don't see him as a cult leader or even as someone who's dangerous in any way. He might be the read deal for all I know but I just don't put much faith in spiritual teachers who use their money to buy designer clothes, extravagant vehicle, living quarters, etc. Maybe that's just my prejudice.

So my final verdict:

Eckhart Tolle - Very rich, pretty harmless, and not a cult leader

Andrew Cohen - Very rich, teaches a similar philosophy as Tolle, deluded, and definitely displays all the signs of a cult leader

Byron Katie - This is the first I've heard of her so I don't really know

Things to Make and Do

Go to Google.

Type 'Eckhart Tolle' and 'Platinum' into the slot. You can do this just on the
Google main page.

Or, if you want to be precise, type ET's full name into exact phrase slot and
the words 'platinum' and 'seating' into the all words slot.

Seating is divided into bronze, silver gold and platinum.

Read the price differential for tickets based on how close you want to sit to the stage. Platinum price seating is for the first three rows.

Now...a question.

If a teaching is supposed to transcend the speaker's personality/history and is meant to liberate the listeners from suffering generated by their own personalities and personal histories----

Then, (unless one is visually or hearing impaired), what difference does it make how close one sits to the person doing the speaking?

Its the teaching that should matter, not the speaker's own embodied personality. Whether one sits in the back or front row shouldnt matter.

IMO the verbal context is all about transcendence of personality and personal history--yet the social context and price structuring seem to imply, nonverbally that the speaker's presence and personality do remain important enough to influence price structuring.

So we have a combo of verbal and non verbal elements that combine to form a possible double bind.

Tolle may not be aware of this, but if it potentially undermines the message that he sincerely wishes to get across, then as a thoughtful teacher, he would be well advised to re--think this arrangement and design something that doesnt generate
a rank ordered class structure tied to money and ability to pay or charge up credit cards.

For it is possible that this rank ordered fiscal/seating structure might, without people being aware of it, insinuate some obstacles and subvert a teaching process in which Tolle sincerely wishes to help people transcend personal history and class, but which may subvert what he is trying to accomplish.

The possible problems generated by the rank ordered seat pricing, named by precious metals and tied to proximity to the speaker might possibly have the following effects:

The verbal content would possibly influence participants consciously, but the nonverbal elements of price structuring might provide an unconscious teaching that personality remains important, after all--contradicting the stated content of the teaching and impairing the pedagogical impact.

Enlightenment and celebrity would be subtly tied together and transcendence of craving would, in this context, remain subtly linked to a social state (celebrity) that many of us do crave and are taught by our culture to crave.

The price differential would also bring in, nonverbally, matters of class--those who have the money (or credit) to afford front row seats, with financial and social stratification based on ability/willingness to pay hierarchically rank ordered
by bronze, silver, gold and platinum---the last three being precious metals and themselves objects of craving.

(If people have a hearing impairment this could be solved by supplying headphones.)

Ive been to events where rows close to the speaker were priced higher, but this price difference was donated to charity and clearly spelled out as such.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2018 09:07PM by corboy.

left_of_the_dial,

I like what you said about the Oprah audience, might I add just some words?

"he makes people the FALSE PROMISE they will feel good without actually pushing them to do much of anything and Oprah's crowd probably likes that kind of message."

Same as The Secret.
You can HAVE IT ALL, instantly, with no effort.

Personally, I think ET planned the entire Guru thing, like a typical self-promoter. the nerve of these guys to claim they are Enlightened. Too bad we could not see a hidden camera off them at home.

What Tolle is teaching people won't make them happy, that is for sure, it should make them worse.
Dr. Albert Ellis showed us that the most important thing is to learn to accept ourselves as FALLIBLE HUMANS. Once we just accept ourselves as humans, then we can be happier.
Trying to be Enlightened is guaranteed to make you miserable!
Ah the irony.


And Corboy, boy you hit the nail on the head! It reminded me of ET's contact page.
It made me think he wants people to think of him as God, as he tells people to send in letters, he reads all of them, but probably won't respond.

Some folks say God hears all our prayers, but only answers some.
Eckhart Tolle says he hears all our letters, but only answers some.

That is designed to get more ET ass-kissing letters or Worship, so maybe ET will write back!
You should send that critique to him, maybe he will read it!
Or post it on the Huffington Post, etc.

(from his website)
[eckharttolle.com]
Contact Eckhart Tolle

Due to the volume of mail Eckhart receives, he is no longer able to respond personally. He does, however, read all of his mail.

Mailing Address:
Eckhart Tolle
PO Box 93664 Nelson Park RPO
Vancouver, BC, V6E 4L7
CANADA

They just did the launch of the Eckhart Tolle on Oprah, for the web seminar...

The video clips were designed to DISARM your objections...

#1) Christian Objections: they showed a nice Christian lady saying how Eckhart Tolle's book A NEW EARTH is totally compatible with Christianity, and is NOT some New Age fluff. This is to TRY to stop the by the book US Christians from crucifying Tolle which one assumes they are already doing.

#2) PAIN of DIVORCE: another nice lady trying to deal with the PAIN of her divorce. There is the PAIN folks. Pain sells. Byron Katie sells to pain too. Pain = Profit.

#3) LOVE: the book by Tolle is going to help her FIND THE LOVE OF HER LIFE, pleasure.

Sales 101:
-Overcome Objections in advance.
-PAIN: point out the pain, make them FEEL it now.
-PLEASURE: heal the pain with your PRODUCT and SERVICES. (Eckhart Tolle).

The Sales process sure is Spiritual...

I am also a born again Christian and am taking part in the Oprah Tolle class.


So far I really find it good and am enjoying it quite a lot. He has said many times that he is not endorsing any specific religion. So I see no harm in helping us all live in the spirit and not in the head.

The bible says to worship in Spirit and truth. And we must believe in our HEARTS. I see far too many Christians at my church just say Jesus, Jesus Jesus in their heads, yet their lives are no different than the heathen. They believe in the mind, but have no real life changing transformation. I think that is what Tolle is talking about, and that is a good thing.

I think what Oprah is doing is GREAT. Thought I would share that.

Quote
al3r
I am also a born again Christian and am taking part in the Oprah Tolle class.

So far I really find it good and am enjoying it quite a lot. He has said many times that he is not endorsing any specific religion. So I see no harm in helping us all live in the spirit and not in the head.

The bible says to worship in Spirit and truth. And we must believe in our HEARTS. I see far too many Christians at my church just say Jesus, Jesus Jesus in their heads, yet their lives are no different than the heathen. They believe in the mind, but have no real life changing transformation. I think that is what Tolle is talking about, and that is a good thing.

I think what Oprah is doing is GREAT. Thought I would share that.

Al3r, this is a forum to investigate the problems and abuses associated with cults, "spiritual teachers", and the like. Why are you here?

Should I be worried?

My wife has and is suffering from depression. She has suffered from depression since her childhood. She has had thoughts of suicide and has made at least one attempt earlier in her life before I met her. She has not worked in six months. She has now found the writings of Eckhart Tolle through Oprah. She has signed up for and is doing the ten week “course” on Oprah.com. I have read some excerpts from his books, I have researched him on the internet and I am worried about what affect this guy is having on my wife’s state of mind.

My gut is telling me that his “teachings” are dangerous for somebody like my wife who is in such a dark place at the moment. She is suffering from very low self esteem and seems to think that Tolle’s teachings are going to make difference.

I don’t know what to do. I want to help her but I feel the way Tolle is selling his thoughts with the assistance of Oprah is making it very difficult to counteract. In simple terms I feel she thinks that “well if Oprah says its good then it must be good.”

Should I be worried? What should I do? Any advice would be appreciated.

Quote
al3r
So far I really find it good and am enjoying it quite a lot. He has said many times that he is not endorsing any specific religion. So I see no harm in helping us all live in the spirit and not in the head.

The bible says to worship in Spirit and truth. And we must believe in our HEARTS. I see far too many Christians at my church just say Jesus, Jesus Jesus in their heads, yet their lives are no different than the heathen. They believe in the mind, but have no real life changing transformation. I think that is what Tolle is talking about, and that is a good thing.

I think what Oprah is doing is GREAT. Thought I would share that.

Could you elaborate on your statements? How is Tolle helping us all live in the spirit? Whose spirit? What spirit? How is ET going to bring about a life changing transformation? Is he a stronger influence than Jesus or your clergy? I'm not trying to be facetious - but really interested in a deeper understanding of what you're trying to say in your quote up top.

Quote
tunno
Should I be worried?

My wife has and is suffering from depression. She has suffered from depression since her childhood. She has had thoughts of suicide and has made at least one attempt earlier in her life before I met her. She has not worked in six months. She has now found the writings of Eckhart Tolle through Oprah. She has signed up for and is doing the ten week “course” on Oprah.com. I have read some excerpts from his books, I have researched him on the internet and I am worried about what affect this guy is having on my wife’s state of mind.

My gut is telling me that his “teachings” are dangerous for somebody like my wife who is in such a dark place at the moment. She is suffering from very low self esteem and seems to think that Tolle’s teachings are going to make difference.

I don’t know what to do. I want to help her but I feel the way Tolle is selling his thoughts with the assistance of Oprah is making it very difficult to counteract. In simple terms I feel she thinks that “well if Oprah says its good then it must be good.”

Should I be worried? What should I do? Any advice would be appreciated.

Hi Tunno,

I'm so sorry that your wife is having such a rough time and that you are in the painful position of witnessing it and not knowing what to do. I've been in your wife's place, struggling with major depression and suicidality, and trying to help myself via "alternative" approaches such as that of Eckhart Tolle.

Unfortunately I've found that what Tolle and people like him are offering doesn't help me, not in the long run. But it's taken me years to figure this out.

On the plus side, I find Tolle to be far more inocuous than someone like Byron Katie.

You have asked for advice and all I can say is, do your best to listen to your wife. If she's not communicating, you can try drawing her out. I'm nearly finished reading a wonderful book that someone here at Rick's forum recommended: Authentic Happiness, by the acclaimed psychologist, Martin Seligman. In his book, Dr. Seligman recommends engaging in "attentive listening." Such a thing can really help.

I suppose you could honestly express your fears to your wife. But I'd avoid criticizing Tolle and Oprah, and focus on expressing your feelings. It seems like Tolle is somewhat of a lifeline for your wife at this time. Not a good idea to mess with that, when she's in such a fragile state.

If I can think of anything else, I'll let you know.

Wishing you and your wife very well...