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Rudi
A friend in DWB told me that one of Ole's close disciples, a traveling teacher, said explicitly that it was Karmapa's wish and not Ole's and I was also told so by another person very active in DWB. I can't say more since that could reveal my identity.

Rudi: what I know from a closer DWB circle is that it was a decision strongly influenced by Cathy with an intention to make Ole seen among high ranking kagyu lamas. On the other hand if Karmapa had invited Ole to Monlam it would have been mentioned everywhere a thousand times by now. It would have been unlike Ole to miss such a good chance to emphasize his credibility :-) But I might be missing some information here.

PS I'm glad you found helpful what I posted here.

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warrenz
Without Ole's supporters, as I said Thaye Dorje's monlam would be pretty tiny - 4-5 rows of monks. Note also the almost complete lack of lay Tibetans.

I'm afraid, I'll have to contradict you on this one.

I was at a Kagyu Monlam of the Thaye Dorje side about eight years ago, and there were only a handful of Western lay students. Maybe 30-40 people, most of them were KIBI students, and, again most of the KIBI students were followers of the Dhagpo Kagyu Mandala and the Bodhipath organisation. There were almost no Ole students there. The entire place was crowded with Tibetan monks of the Thaye Dorje side, for people who were late for the sessions it was almost impossible to find a place to sit. There were also quite a few lay Tibetans.

In the past 8 years, could there have been a change, an increase in the number of Western lay students attending the Kagyu Monlam for Thaye Dorje?

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Oma Desala

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warrenz
Without Ole's supporters, as I said Thaye Dorje's monlam would be pretty tiny - 4-5 rows of monks. Note also the almost complete lack of lay Tibetans.

I'm afraid, I'll have to contradict you on this one.

I was at a Kagyu Monlam of the Thaye Dorje side about eight years ago, and there were only a handful of Western lay students. Maybe 30-40 people, most of them were KIBI students, and, again most of the KIBI students were followers of the Dhagpo Kagyu Mandala and the Bodhipath organisation. There were almost no Ole students there. The entire place was crowded with Tibetan monks of the Thaye Dorje side, for people who were late for the sessions it was almost impossible to find a place to sit. There were also quite a few lay Tibetans.

Well I'm only going on what I saw in the pictures from the latest monlam posted by karam-mudra.

Didn't look like a big gathering - even without comparing to the Urgyen Trinlay Dorje monlam.

As a follower of Thaye Dorje - why do you think he continues to support Ole when he must know what he gets up to?

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warrenz
As a follower of Thaye Dorje - why do you think he continues to support Ole when he must know what he gets up to?

I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not a follower of Thaye Dorje ;) I'm neither for him nor against him. He's just simply not my teacher, because he doesn't convince me.

Eight years ago I kind of revisited the Thaye Dorje side because at that time some high Tibetan Lamas of that lineage made a lot of critical remarks on Ole Nydahl in the public. For a while it looked as if they were finally going to fire him. Since I had originally turned away from that lineage because of Ole Nydahl, that apparent change of direction seemed quite appealing to me - but only for a short while. After some "reacquainting" it didn't really convince me, because in the end, as you can see, they didn't throw him out of their lineage and they didn't really clean that mess up.

As to the question why they support him - I'm afraid, I don't get it either. The suspicion that it has a lot to do with money of course suggests itself.

Another reason might be rooted in the way the Tibetan Rinpoches perceive Western students. The Nyingma Lama Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche speaks of a Tibetan "superiority complex" which is really spot on. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's article is really a great analysis of how Tibetan perceive Westerners and why the relationship between Tibetan teachers and Western students is so problematic. It's really a good read I can recommend to everyone dealing with Tibetan Buddhism in the West:

[www.american-buddha.com]

I agree with almost everything DKR says in this article, in some aspects I see things even worse. It appears that Tibetans tend to see us as some kind of culturally underdeveloped monkeys with a lot of technology and money, but no culture at all. I suspect that at least some of these Tibetan so called "Rinpoches" support Ole Nydahl because they disdain our culture so much that - no matter what a low-grade Buddhist teacher Nydahl may be - they assume that for monkeys like us he is still an improvement. (A bit of this racist attitude also shines through in one of Shamarpa's letters, when he wrote that the 16th Karmapa did not critisize Ole because of him being a Westerner.)

Another aspect might be that they don't want all of Ole's students to lose their connection to Buddhism, which would most likely happen if they'd throw him out. This seems to be a standard interpretation in the Dhagpo Kagyu Mandala: they assume the Tibetan Rinpoches accept Ole Nydahl and his organisation as a part of their lineage because that will give them a chance to gradually transform his centers into genuine Buddhist centers once Ole is dead. I know for a fact that quite a few of the Western lamas of the Dhagpo Kagyu Mandala think like that and some of them are eagerly waiting for Ole to die so they can finally take over his centers.

However I cannot agree with this view, since I know from the short time I've spent as one of Ole's students (about 15 years ago) that many people in Ole's centers suffer from lots of psychological problems which in my opinion result from inadequate and sometimes even incorrect meditation instructions. I regard it as completely irresponsible of any Tibetan teacher to support Ole Nydahl.

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Oma Desala

I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not a follower of Thaye Dorje ;) I'm neither for him nor against him. He's just simply not my teacher, because he doesn't convince me.

I'm not disappointed. I'm delighted! Your post is very interesting and your views largely echo my own. I have a lot of time for Dzongsar Khyentse (although less time for the Carreons who run the american buddha site) - DK is not afraid to criticize Tibetan attitudes if he thinks they're wrong. What he says is largely true, in my own experience.

I have long suspected that Shamar/Thaye Dorje & co. are waiting to pounce on DWB when Ole goes - however I am not so sure that will work out for them. Ole keeps up a punishing schedule to keep the troops enthused - I can't see Thaye Dorje doing that.

Also, at heart DWB is very Western and not a little xenophobic. Can Tibetans really run it in a manner that does not alienate the current membership? There is a large contingent (perhaps the majority?) of DWB members who are Ole fans more than die-hard Karma Kagyu Buddhists. Will they stay when Ole dies?

I can also imagine that many of Ole's lieutenants will do battle with one another to gain control of parts or all of the organization. It is so widespread that it would difficult to keep together (hence Ole's constant travels). I can see farflung centres resenting the Eastern European core of the organization and seeking to go out on their own or with other groups like Bodhipath or Dechen. Who knows, even Jampa Thaye may also being looking to absorb members from DWB at some point. His support for Ole I have found disappointing. I thought he was better than that.

I think if he could successfully do it, it might be better for Thaye Dorje to take control for the sake of the DWB members. However I don't think it will be easy and I can forsee DWB shrinking radically and being riven by infighting when Ole goes. What is left may not be of much use to Thaye Dorje in the end (if his shot at the Karmapa title is not already a lost cause).

Oma Desala, warrenz: I’m not sure guys what „support“ of tibetan lamas to Ole Nydahl you have been talking about!? A lack of criticism of his teachings or political statements is not yet a support at all. I’m positive most of tibetan lamas have never heard Oles teachings and for sure never read his books. Criticism in general isn't a part of an Asian mentality and certainly it doesn't belong to the tibetan culture at all. Critical comments about other teachers must have a real strong reason to come from a tibetan lama.

If tibetan lamas get invited by DWB to give empowerments and more seldom to give teachings at their centers they always happily accept the invitations for the lamas will do it not for the sake of Oles profile but for the people coming to get Buddha-Dharma. As a gesture of courtesy lamas will always thank the host, the DWB organization and Ole as its leader, for the invite. Are you possibly mistaking being polite for a support?

Oma Desala, one lama “firing” another? It’s surely an amusing concept but Dharma isn't a company where your manager can fire you if you screwed up your job. ))))

We may tend to approach lamas with our own ideas of power, manipulation, politics, and wealth. warrenz, I’m not a sentimental guy at all and have never been. I've seen however on many occasions that those very few realized teachers are motivated by the wish for everyone without exception to have a happy life. I respect the fact that you may percieve it differently though and thus I'm not going to get involved into a discussion on this with you. Oles followers must have a strong karma to have a teacher like him. I’m sure that if it wasn’t for Ole Nydahl most of his students would have never been interested in Buddha-Dharma whatsoever, would have never practised, never had a chance to. Tibetan lamas are certainly aware of this too. Ole students are adults, they are entitled to decide themselves whom they follow if it makes them happy. Thus, Oma Desala, there is no "mess" for anyone among the tibetan lamas to clean up.

With the modern technologies authentic Dharma teachings are available to anyone genuinely interested in a buddhist practice. Everybody has equal opportunities to find them on the internet, to buy books and records, lamas travel with teachings all over the world all year round. With all that information out there if people still believe that Ole Nydahls teachings will ultimately lead them to enlightenment its their own choice which others should respect after all.

As to some recent comments on what may happen with the DWB centers in the future, those remain pure speculations. Only time will tell.

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stpauli
Oma Desala, warrenz: I’m not sure guys what „support“ of tibetan lamas to Ole Nydahl you have been talking about!? A lack of criticism of his teachings or political statements is not yet a support at all. I’m positive most of tibetan lamas have never heard Oles teachings and for sure never read his books. Criticism in general isn't a part of an Asian mentality and certainly it doesn't belong to the tibetan culture at all. Critical comments about other teachers must have a real strong reason to come from a tibetan lama.

I think every lama in the Karma Kagyu tradition knows only too well who Ole is. As for criticism of lamas - Tibetans do nothing but in my experience - it is a community riven with factionalism. In particular, you need only trawl through Shamar's copious online ramblings to read all sorts of criticisms of those who he feels should respect him.

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stpauli
If tibetan lamas get invited by DWB to give empowerments and more seldom to give teachings at their centers they always happily accept the invitations for the lamas will do it not for the sake of Oles profile but for the people coming to get Buddha-Dharma. As a gesture of courtesy lamas will always thank the host, the DWB organization and Ole as its leader, for the invite. Are you possibly mistaking being polite for a support?

I think you are being disingenuous here. Shamar - as evidenced by the letter he posted on his website (and copied here in earlier posts in this thread I believe) not that long ago and then hastily retracted when Ole threatened legal action (also available in an earlier post I think) shows he and no doubt Thaye Dorje are well aware of what Ole is doing.

As I've said several times here - it is well past time students of Shamar/Thaye Dorje in particular (and also of the likes of Beru Khyentse and Jampa Thaye) stopped pretending that their teachers have no part or responsibility for what Ole does. Knowing full well what he has done and refusing to condemn him, these teachers enable Ole to continue, greedy for the money and support DWB channels their way.

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stpauli
Oma Desala, one lama “firing” another? It’s surely an amusing concept but Dharma isn't a company where your manager can fire you if you screwed up your job. ))))

Oh come on, now. Without the active support of Shamar/Thaye Dorje, Ole's claims to greatness would be considerably undermined. DWB and Shamar/Thaye Dorje feed off one another.

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stpauli
We may tend to approach lamas with our own ideas of power, manipulation, politics, and wealth.

This type of thinking allows false gurus to claim that all their faults are merely the subjective perception of their critics. It is dangerous bullshit!

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stpauli
warrenz, I’m not a sentimental guy at all and have never been. I've seen however on many occasions that those very few realized teachers are motivated by the wish for everyone without exception to have a happy life. I respect the fact that you may percieve it differently though and thus I'm not going to get involved into a discussion on this with you. Oles followers must have a strong karma to have a teacher like him.

Another dangerous idea. It is not the fault of Ole's followers that they are in this dysfunctional situation. To say that absolves Ole of the blame for his actions.

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stpauli
I’m sure that if it wasn’t for Ole Nydahl most of his students would have never been interested in Buddha-Dharma whatsoever, would have never practised, never had a chance to. Tibetan lamas are certainly aware of this too. Ole students are adults, they are entitled to decide themselves whom they follow if it makes them happy. Thus, Oma Desala, there is no "mess" for anyone among the tibetan lamas to clean up.

No mess to clean up?!?? What these people are exposed to is not the teaching of the Buddha but the ramblings of a right-wing egomaniac. Many posters here who are former members have recounted tales of bullying, mental illness etc. I know this thread is very long now but it might profit you to go back and read through some of it.

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stpauli
With the modern technologies authentic Dharma teachings are available to anyone genuinely interested in a buddhist practice. Everybody has equal opportunities to find them on the internet, to buy books and records, lamas travel with teachings all over the world all year round. With all that information out there if people still believe that Ole Nydahls teachings will ultimately lead them to enlightenment its their own choice which others should respect after all.

Ole preaches hate and claims to spread the true Dharma without any real qualifications. His support comes from a few individual lamas who have been sidelined from the tradition in which they grew up and who now depend on him to one degree or another for financial and public support.

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stpauli
As to some recent comments on what may happen with the DWB centers in the future, those remain pure speculations. Only time will tell.

At least on that we can agree.

"As a gesture of courtesy lamas will always thank the host, the DWB organization and Ole as its leader, for the invite. Are you possibly mistaking being polite for a support?"

That, right there, is a source of many misunderstandings.

In the West, politeness is often mistakenly interpreted as support, but seen as endorsement.

Especially when we Westerners are eager for a glamourous authority figure to give legitimacy to a group or project.

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corboy
"As a gesture of courtesy lamas will always thank the host, the DWB organization and Ole as its leader, for the invite. Are you possibly mistaking being polite for a support?"

That, right there, is a source of many misunderstandings.

In the West, politeness is often mistakenly interpreted as support, but seen as endorsement.

Especially when we Westerners are eager for a glamourous authority figure to give legitimacy to a group or project.

I'm sure many think that I'm sounding like a broken record on this point but in no way can it be construed that Shamar/Thaye Dorje's support for Nydahl is simply them being polite. Both Shamar/Thaye Dorje and DWB are inextricably linked - neither could flourish without the other. This needs to be clearly understood.

What Corboy is saying may be true in general but not in this case. Both Ole and his Tibetan enablers need each other. The Tibetan lamas who teach at DWB centers are only from Shamar/Thaye Dorje's circle. It is not as if lamas from different lineages or groups are teaching there without any knowledge of who Ole is. It is not true.