My 'boo-boo' reference was actually a sarcastic one referring back to something ol' Stewie said about how he found himself on the path, or found Zen or whatever. (I don't really want to go back and re-read any of his bullshit to refresh my memory when he said it) It does have a slightly 'icky' feel to it though, doesn't it. Sorry for the mental picture.

qd

Hi,

I'm former member of Kwan Um School of Zen, which I left a couple of years ago when I'd found out about Seung Sahn's sexual scandals. I spent about 8 year in the school and was quite active student in the institution, but I had never heart about the scandals from teachers, older students or anybody else in the school. At that time the information now available in
Wikipedia wasn't there. I found out about it by the chance from another internet source. Nothing related to this is mentioned at the school's website and/or Seung Sahn's biography or school's history. Even when you look at Ethics for the Entire Sangha (http://www.kwanumzen.org/misc/ethics_statement.html), you can reat there "The recent history of Buddhist organizations in America shows very clearly that sexual relationships between teachers and students can lead to great pain and disharmony within the sangha." But nowhere is mentioned that this was also problem of our teacher Seung Sahn. So at that time I thought everything was ok in our school regarding this matter. But obviously I was wrong and naive.

When I questioned teachers or other students in the school, I got various responses how this personal failure wasn't important in the light of all his teachings or teaching (Dharma) in general. Some even believed his version - that he wasn't doing it for himself. On the other hand Seung Sahn was (and is) still presented only in positive light in all school's documents, websites, teaching. There is nowhere officialy mentioned his failure and how did it affected the school and his students. I find this attitude very hypocritical and to this day I cannot understand why they're doing it. Probably it's a fear what would happen to the school if they make this part of their official history or it's some kind of attachment to their teacher. But I think that if they admit his mistakes the school could only gain - now it's getting only worse and worse as time passes. They do nothing and as new people come they can still be misled by presentation and illusion of perfect zen master Seung Sahn.

However, I'd like to clear up some points regarding the practice in Kwan Um School of Zen, we don't have to make evil from everything:

- 1000 prostrations a day - only very few people do this practice. Usually you do 108 prostrations in the morning which takes about 12 minutes, so 1000 prostrations would take about 2 hours in total and they can be spread accross the whole day.

- 21 - 90 days retreats - in fact most common are 1, 3, 7 days retreats. Again only few people can leave their lives and do 21 - 90 days. It's true that you shouldn't speak with others during retreat, should not contact outside world, also the rule abour reading Kwan Um books. I don't remember about not keeping diary, it's possible there is such rule there. On the other hand these rule were quite often infringed during retreats.

I'll be glad to discuss this further.

well, not to lose the forest for the trees...but 1000 prostrations would take 2 hrs for maybe a olympic athlete. How many people could even do that many in one day? Not many. Certainly not Seung Sahn.

And the more serious longer retreats, are the point of the thread.
Those more serious techiques, are for the more "advanced" students, who will become totally indocrinated. That is classic brainwashing, literally.


The fact that they try to hide the reality of what Seung Sahn did sexually, is more than enough.
When a person is claiming to be a celibate monk, and lying about it for years, they are finished. They are a fraud.
That is why they try to hide it, as you can't get around that.

Its probable that Seung Sahn's motivation for having sex with all those female students of his, was not ONLY about Hound-dogging around the country and having his own private harem, which was most of it.
Seung Sahn was a sharp businessman.
He knew that other men who were running his centers for him, could steal his students, and pocket the money, so he couldn't trust them to run his centers.
But if he could make these women think they "loved" him, with sexual bonding, then he probably thought then he could trust them a lot more, as they would be more devoted to him.

That is a very common technique, using sex as a weapon on followers.
Its unforgiveable.


It would be interesting to find out now, who REALLY owns the Kwan Um School of Zen chain. Seung Sahn of course owned it all, but when he died, who really took control, and who is running everything now?
It could have been bought-out behind the scenes, or parts even sold off?
Who is calling the shots?

Here is some ridiculous hypocrisy from Seung Sahn.

And what a ridiculous list of dozens of Thou Shalt Nots...as if he followed any of that. Its just a technique to try to gain control and make your followers walk on eggshells all the time.
Arbitrary "rules" to put people off-balance.

Notice that other "Zen" people who have posted here before, do not even follow these rules either.

QUOTE: "Do not go where you have no business. Do not listen to talk which does not concern you."

[www.kwanumzen.org]
Zen Master Seung Sahn's Temple Rules
"Money and sex are like a spiteful snake. Put your concern with them far away."


[www.kwanumzen.org]
"If we look closely we see many people in this world who are ruled by the five desires of food, sex, money, sleep and fame. Many people live just for those things. If we throw those desires away, then we can find the correct way."


Seung Sahn was ruled by food, by looking at how overweight he was.
Seung Sahn was ruled by sex. (and lying about it for years)
Seung Sahn was ruled by money.
Seung Sahn was ruled by fame. Look at all the PR pics he was using to self-promote.

One then assumes he loved to sleep-in too?

Seung Sahn was a fraud. It seems he got popular in the west, as he was such an aggressive businessmen and showman, with the fancy robes, and everything else.

Quote
The Anticult
http://www.kwanumzen.org/misc/temple-rules.html

A quote found at the above link:

Do not cling to your opinions. Do not discuss your private views with others. To cling to and defend your opinions is to destroy your practice. Put away all your opinions. This is true Buddhism.

I can't help but think of Stuart Resnick aka RandomStu. Would not he know about this?

I think there is nothing wrong with intensive meditation practice or long retreats, they have been part of Zen Budhism for long time. Problem is why you do it or for what or whom. If you strongly believe your teacher and school and don't see or don't want to see their failures then it's problem.

Who owns the Kwan Um School of Zen now? I think that it's his older students - zen masters who got transmission from him, you can see the list at kwanumzen.org. Namely it's Soeng Hyang (Barbara Rhodes) as main school zen master, I think it was mentioned here that she was one of the students who had sexual relationship with him. Then no wonder that school oficials don't want to talk about it. But they should.

I know I'm going to sound a little like a smart-ass here, but I have a question:

In the "transmission" process, is it possible that all the outrageous bullcrap is also transmitted?

Crass question or no, I think it's a very logical one.

qd

How dare you be logical amidst all the current hysteria re the Byron Katie thread!

I kid. ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2009 08:47PM by helpme2times.

I know I'm going to sound a little like a smart-ass here, but I have a question:

In the "transmission" process, is it possible that all the outrageous bullcrap is also transmitted?

Crass question or no, I think it's a very logical one.


A very logical question.

I've been a zen student for several decades, in various schools. Originally it attracted me for its emphasis on critical thought. Like most things though, the ideal and the mundane reality are often poles apart.

"Transmission" is a transmission of power, authority, correct teaching and correct understanding in the ideal. The correct teaching often gets corrupted and changed in the process, much like the distortion that happens with the game of Chinese Whispers.
Sometimes the changes are of benefit, such as keeping up with the modern worldview rather than a strict adherence to tradition just because it is tradition. A medieval worldview is not much use in the 21st century.

"Transmission" as it is viewed lately is often seen as some kind of woo woo perfect energy transfer that the magic master somehow implants in his successor. No such thing, never was, never will be. That is an incorrect understanding.
If the teacher has an incorrect understanding he will probably transmit this to his students unless he has previously made sure that his students are very stable in their discriminating intelligence.

"Transmission" is not magical at all, its just what happens when a parent teaches a child the parent's own values, or what happen when you study with a college professor, there is a two-way inluence going on (with the power in the relationship held by the parent or professor figure)

A good zen master moves you on when you've learned what he has to teach. I've only met one who actually measured up to that ideal. A good discriminatory grounding means that you no longer need to identify with the teacher as a parent figure and you can take or leave what matters to you from even a not so good teacher.

Corboy has posted some previous links for articles by Stuart Lachs on this very subject. Institutional zen suffers from the same corruptions and schisms that any other religion or large organisation suffers. That is not to excuse the damage that can be done by teachers who do not have the best interests of the student as a priority.

There is an awful lot of myth-making in zen and it has limitations, not a study for everyone. The secrecy is stupid and elitist and eventually damaging to all who participate.
If the teacher promotes outrageous bull-crap then that is what will be transmitted. What you see is what you get.

I appreciate the opportunity this board allows for open discussion.

Stoic, it seems you have a great insight into this problem. What do you think why the Kwan um School of Zen still covers-up its founding teacher Seung Sahn and his failures? There are a lot of zen masters and dharma master in the school who surely know about that and though I don't overrate these titles today, I met couple of them and they all seemed as intelligent and compassionate people with good sense of humor at that time. I can't get why all these adult people cannot understand how this kind of silent conspiracy, hypocrisy and not telling the whole truth is harmful in our culture. On the other hand it's hard to believe to me that the truth about it is so primitive that it's only about power, fame, money, sex.