Lubos,

I don't know the Kwan Um School or what is taught there, apart from what I have read here and elsewhere on the web.

Generally though, the reason for the secrecy is a fear of admitting that the revered teacher might not be all he is cracked up to be. If the revered teacher was empire-building, it is fear of losing the power and empire and all the time and effort that the student has invested in revering the teacher and his works.

Good teaching aims to make the student independent of the teacher as quickly as possible--so that the student can drop the reverence for fallible human beings and begin to operate under his own agency. It isn't therapy but it does address an ongoing maturing process in the student.

The teacher I most respected was a lay person with a day job who did not charge for the teaching. He turned away far more students than he accepted and taught an almost military discipline, personal responsibilty and utmost integrity. Which was what I most needed to learn at the time. He was a fallible person but a great example.
There was no myth-making because he simply didn't allow it, no transmission nonsense either.

It shouldn't be all just about power, fame, money and sex. Correct teaching should aim to develop the mature understanding of the student of the principles of Buddhism. Those principles, correctly applied, can be seen as a guide to living a decent, balanced life. The basic principles of most traditional thought systems are much the same. The student is expected to study and question these principles and keep maturing and studying, reading widely and keeping an open, enquiring mind. I never became a card-carrying buddhist, it was never expected of me, but I have benefited greatly from the study.

Although I'm not one to judge without knowing all the facts...this is unfortunate to hear. I've enjoyed the books I've read from Seung Sahn.

Many years ago I was interested in learning about Buddhism and attended both a Theravada and Zen school. The people at the Zen school were very kind but I chose to stop going after a couple of visit based on the cult like atmosphere and the seeming pattern of Zen teachers breaking their own vows and rules.

I'm glad I chose to go to the Theravada school. Unlike Tibetan Buddhism...there was ZERO new age mumbo jumbo. And unlike Zen...the monks actually followed their precepts and never claimed their teachings were the world's only great source of wisdom. As a matter of fact...the Theravadan monks rarely even talked about Buddhism outside of the meditation sessions. They pretty much just talked about every day things and seemed more interested in building a genuine friendship with the people who visited.

Also, the Theravada school, as opposed to the Zen school, never pressured people to donate money. It fact...they even refused my donations on several occasions. I had to basically force a check down their throat a couple of times because I felt guilty for staying at their place and eating their food. The Zen school, who I believe were associated with Seung Sahn, seemed to place a high importance on donating to their monastery.

Personally, I enjoy Buddhism and Advaita. I even like A Course in Miracles. They all teach a great truth/Truth. The problem is that they are all corrupt with people who will use you for their own personal needs and, in order to separate you from your money, will promise you things they can never deliver. Life is difficult and when people are suffering they will pay almost any amount of money in order to find peace. All the phony Guru's of the world know this to be a fact and know how to capitalize on it.

The first thing you should do when looking for spiritual guidance is to look at how much a teacher charges for their services/products. If your first instinct is that the price seems a little high that is all you need to know. Stay away from that person no matter how wise or kind they may appear. For example...I actually agree with a lot of what Eckhart Tolle has to say. But how do I know he a fraud? Because he charges $30.00 for a CD of his ramblings that ought to cost no more than $12.00. A good teacher doesn't really care about your money and, in my experience, will usually go out of their way to make as much information available for FREE as possible.

A bit off topic but I wanted to note another characteristic of a bad teacher - They will often imply that you will become more successful as a result of their teachings. I've noticed this is a popular concept in new age material and movies such as "The Secret". In reality, no "enlightened" teacher would EVER teach that developing you spiritual life will have an effect whatsoever on financial or material success. It's a carrot and the stick technique that has nothing to do with finding true inner peace. Any person that teaches financial success as a result of spiritual progress is a fraud and, most likely, a sociopath. The will usually use the expression, "Your inner world is a reflection of your outer world". Seems reasonable? It's not. It's a hoax. It's important to stay away from anybody who teaches this nonsense as "spirituality".

Last but not least...never purchase or attend anything from people who have a known pattern of sexual misconduct with their students. I would like to think he is innocent because I find him funny and think his books are filled with a lot of very entertaining wisdom. But, as history shows, when students accuse teachers of sexual misconduct...it is usually the students who are being truthful.

Before setting out on any kind of spiritual journey, the best thing you can do for yourself is spend some time studying cult-like behavior. There is corruption everywhere you go in the world and the world of spirituality is no exception. Everywhere you go, there will be someone with a kind smile who's true intention will be to separate you from a dollar.

Most people here already know this by now but I post these thoughts assuming someone may be coming here for the first time.

I will sum up Zen and other the other stuff very simply - There is no "self". There is a body...there are thoughts...and there are things that are noticed by this body and these thoughts. But this is actually not true. While it appears that the body and mind are noticing the things/objects that share their space...there is actually "something" that is noticing all three - The Body, The Mind, and all the things that appear to be "separate" from the body and mind. The body and the mind(thoughts) are just objects within the field of awareness. You are the "thing" that is watching/noticing everything within this field of awareness...including your own body and mind.

I am not here trying to convince people of this. Many of the people here are Atheists and no interest in it. All I'm pointing out is that this is all that Zen and similar spiritual schools are teaching. There is absolutely NO reason to over pay for this teaching or allow yourself to be taken advantage of for this teaching.

Be kind. Forgive people And, whenever possible, spend some time in solitude. It shouldn't cost you anything to do that.

This is just my two cents. Take it for what it's worth.

[www.enlightennext.org]

'I had met him just ten days earlier. When my turn came, I entered the serene atmosphere of the large open room in the meditation center that was sponsoring his visit. It was my first private audience with a spiritual teacher. Sitting on a raised dais bathed in the warm light of late afternoon, he exuded a quiet equanimity, a mysterious and powerful depth, and a penetrating clarity and insight that seemed to transcend the temporal confines of the present, reaching far back in time and far forward into the future. And there I was, kneeling before him, as he brought that power and wisdom to bear . . . on me.

What he proceeded to say so directly penetrated me, so thoroughly resonated with my own deepest knowing, that it seemed to meld with the very cells of my being. He read my deep past; he anticipated far ahead into my future. “You have done no harm in past lives and have no heavy karma to make up for,” he reassured me. “But now you must overcome all your fears. You have high spiritual ability and the chance to be a spiritual teacher in this life and to help many others through the spiritual practice I can give you.” Dams and locks in my psyche that I had not even been aware of suddenly opened, and I was flooded with the mysterious sense of my own karma—an overarching destiny and purpose that had shaped a long succession of lifetimes. A vast universe arose in my awareness, and with it a feeling of infinite potential. In that moment, the vacant and gnawing space I had grown used to living with since my youth was filled with inner knowing and certainty. And what had been a long-evasive spiritual possibility suddenly became real. In the presence of this one man, I found myself overwhelmed by unconditional love and the deepest peace I had ever known.'

You have just been played lady... Everyone tells the the new student you have a a high spiritual ability and could be a teacher one day when they want to rake in disciples.

'“You want to align yourself with a man who has the kind of power that you want. And in this case it's dharma power!” said Annie, a student and former lover of one of the most influential Japanese Zen masters to bring the Buddha's teachings, or dharma, to the West.'

If the the dharma has any power it is the subtle power of truth and clarity, not influence and is not going to be helped by being turned into a seedy commodity.

I hope no one minds me weighing in on this thread. I lived in Kwan um, for many years. I knew many of these people you speak of personally. I am not trying to tell anyone how to perceive anything. That must always remain up to each individual. Every one of us has a perspective that is valid and correct for us. So i hope no one gets angry if i share mine.

I was born in Cambridge Zen Center in 1980. I knew Zen Master Seung Sahn. He never pretended to be the messiah returning. He never pretended to be anything but a person living the human condition along with the rest of us. He studied meditation and he taught meditation. He performed my 100 day ceremony. He married my parents... You are all correct when you say he wanted to grow his zen school. That is a perfectly valid and fair thing to say. But when you say that he didn't care. You were not there those saturday mornings he sat around in the living room watching cartoons with me. You were not there when i was born and he made an amazing soup for my mother who's body was depleted after giving birth. It was some special traditional korean soupmade for women after childbirth. You were not there for any of what actually unfolded.

I knew Sonia. She lived in a room upstairs from mine. I spent a lot of time with her. She used to make me tater tots and she and her husband would spend hours with me.... They are wonderful people. I have not forgotten them. They chose to leave. No one tried to stop them. No one guilted them in any way. No one opposed their right to leave at any time that they wanted. Kwan um, in my lifetime alone has had several fairly massive exoduses. In which many left. There was one in the mid 80s for example. And if youw ant to talk about culty behavior i'll give you this because i don't care for culty behavior anymore than the next person. You should try to get access to the books. There were some interesting economic choices made at that time that personally, i find objectionable looking back on it all. Ofcourse at the time i was about 4 so no one talked economics with me. But that was definately a culty event that happened and it caused a lot of long time residents to leave. No one tried to stop them. No one held them hostage. No one in any way guilted them or made it hard for them to leave. They left freely and without any problems. As is everyone's right in this life when they find themselves in a place they do not wish to be. No one was ever asked or forced to stay against their will. No one was brainwashed in the cult ways that you hear about. The community is and was open to the public. You can go and visit you can leave to visit friends and family. Family was always welcome. Infact, the majority something like over 90% of the Kwan Um school, works outside the community. Many brought friends around as it suited them. Many went out with friends as it suited them. No one ever asked permission of anyone else to do anything. Everyone was always free to make their own choices. So when i see people call my childhood home a cult.... I am shocked.

It is however quite fair to consider it a controversial community. Everyone who lives there pays rent. Their rent also covers the community's organic co-op membership. So it becomes as a result, more economic to eat at home. And we do share traditionally group meals. Though let me be clear. I have never been to a meal that anyone was required to attend. You could always choose to go out. But at time X, the food would be fresh and everyone would be gathering and if you want dinner that is the best time to go get it. Having a lot of people living in one place does sort of breed a certain.... hmmm... How to put this..... Dependence upon eachother and a certain connection to eachother when you are frequently eating together, sharing the bathrooms together, sharing all of the common areas, and the workload of keeping the place running and functional for the benefit of all. So it is safe to say that it was a tight knit group when i was living there. Other people from outside the community do become less necesary to life when you have a huge variety of people living right down the hall. This is a fair point. And i suppose it can make things seem a bit cultish....

I find it interesting that there was an economic event in the 80s that no one mentions and instead you all harp on and on about a man who made some mistakes. I would point out that all the women he slept with were free to leave or to say no. In fact, I know women who did say no. Several. He made no problems for them. He accepted their response politely and treated them with nothing but respect and never tried again. He never pretended to be god. He never tried to force his will on others. He invited them to a seat at his table, sure, and they were free to walk away at any time. He was a person. He fell to human urges. So what? His affairs, were with consenting adults with strong ties outside the community as well as in it. I do believe all of them worked 5 days a week the standard work day at jobs all over their area. He never physically assaulted anyone... So let's keep things in perspective can we? Calling this group controversial is not the least bit unfair. Calling it a mind controlling cult is just... An outright lie. And no it wasn't a perfect institution and no the man who founded it was hardly perfect. But that doesn't make it a cult. Everyone had their own independent finances. They were never forced to pay anything but their monthly rent as they had a roof all utilities and food. Who was supposed to cover that if not the people living there? The easter bunny? But everyone had their own bank account and their pay went into their bank account and the rent was far less than it was for most apartments in boston. It was actually a really good deal for the live in members. At every Dharmatalk someone stands up and requests donations. No one is made to pay anything. I never have. Not in the 30 years of my association with Kwan um. Most people living there make no donations. A request and a command are not the same thing. So a bunch of financially independent women who worked outside the community and maintained strong ties to their family and the outside world were happy to sleep with him and some were not interested. He never forced anyone to do anything. In the old days before he died, there was a lot more of a pedestal that the main teachers sat on than there is today. Part of that is just based in his cultural paradigm as he wasn't american. I can see how that too can seem a bit culty. And the silent meals that were periodically held. I never got those either.... There is plenty to point at and call culty. And it is definately a controversial place. But to call it a cult is to do a disservice to the word cult. Kwan um, is harmless. What are they going to do? Advocate peace and reaching out to everyone no matter the walk of life at you till you die of hippiness? Cult, should be reserved perhaps for the actually dangerous places. You know, the ones where no one is free to leave? Children are raped women are abused... Men are treated poorly, until some guy who thinks he is Jesus, tells everyone to drink from the happy sippy cup of death and creates a mass suicide? Or the ones that prey on people's minds and their finances in unjustifiables ways. Where no one makes their own financial decisions and everyone has to get permission before they touch the food in the kitchen.... Come on, now. Lets not get carried away. Kwan um is not perfect, Kwan um might be controversial yes. But a cult? No. And I would know. Because, even now, i still retain ties to the community. I moved a world away. No one questioned my right to pack up and leave. No one has ever objected to anyone leaving. Everyone there is a free agent.

Someone mentioned the precepts. Which i took myself when i was 16, by choice. No one forced me. No one even asked if i wanted to. No one recommended that i should. No one pressured in any way. I decided I wanted to. It was an interesting experience. The first thing they do in Kwan um after you take precepts is they gather you in a small room, and someone says, "the precepts are a guide. They are not the laws by which you live. They are not rules. No one goes to hell for breaking them. Infact, everyone is expected to break them. Because in each moment the compassionate choice may require something different. So know when to break them." Then they proceed to tell you the story of a hunter in the forest. He is a fat hunter looks like he is doing very well. Then you see a rabbit fly by. The hunter asks, which way did it go. You don't tell him. Because he is doing well. He won't suffer if he doesn't get the rabbit. Same story, only this time the hunter looks horrible and he is clearly weak and starving and he asks which way the rabbit went... what do you do? Do you lie? Do you tell him and kill something? What do you do? So though the precepts say don't make dumb sexual decisions and granted Zen Master Seung sahn made some terrible ones.... It isn't the same thing as when christians break the 10 commandments or act hypocritically. They are not intended to be the end all and be all. They are merely things you promise to keep in mind and to consider as you live your life trying to do what is compassionate in each moment. Sorry i am not trying to preach at anyone. I am only trying to explain the difference in the perspective and how it isn't quite as people who tend to see things in the black and white cultural christian framework of the west tend to see it. But to say Kwan um is a cult.... That isn't quite correct. Controversial definately.

The Anticult, "And the more serious longer retreats, are the point of the thread.
Those more serious techiques, are for the more "advanced" students, who will become totally indocrinated. That is classic brainwashing, literally. "

This statement is not accurate. These retreats both the long and short ones are open to ANYONE who wishes to take part in them. Infact, many people go for the long ones and do an extended retreat but plan to leave and make it clear they are leaving after whatever number days they are comfortable doing.

If there is an emergency, no one is going to keep you from responding. If there is a super emergency, they will pull you quietly out of the dharmaroom and they will tell you and allow you to do whatever you need to do in the circumstances. I talk to my father during retreats all the time when it is necesary, during a lunch break. I have talked to most people during retreats all the time during lunchbreaks. All through my life in that place. They try to keep the chatter to a minimum yes, but sometimes speaking is necesary and communication is really not optional given the circumstance and then it is fine to say what needs to be said.

I have never seen anyone try to hide what Seung Sahn did. Not publicizing it to the world, is not the same thing as hiding it. If you ask any teacher in the school what up with that, they are not going to lie to you. They are not going to tell you it is a secret. They are going to tell you exactly what happened. There is this thing called the middle path. A place between posting it on a billboard and hiding it behind a wall in the basement.

I knew Seung Sahn well, Did you know him? Did you ever spend actual real face to face time with him? I didn't think so. What he did was absolutely hound dogging. It was unacceptable. He did do some misleading of people yes completely accurate statement there. But he isn't running for political office. He isn't trying to be the president. He wasn't how shall i put this.... In charge of everything the way that you want to think he was. There was a board of directors. There were other active boards that ran things. He was just a teacher. Hardly the business person you give him credit for being. ANd definately not the celibate monk that he claimed to be either. He wasn't politiccing. He wasn't sleeping with these women and raising them above others. He wasn't abusing those who said no thank you. Nor was he punishing them in any way shape or form. I was there. I watched all these things with my own 2 eyes. So please, if you want to talk about a dead guy who can't defend himself please at least be accurate or posit a question about him rather than jumping to these assumptions based on your misguided notions colored by your culturally christian black and white paradigm. Everything comes in varied shades of grey. So to, did zen master Seung sahn.

You are absolutely correct using sex as a weapon is completely unforgivable. And if that was what he was doing I would dismiss him the way you have. Except i knew the guy. Calling the zen schools his private harem would be inaccurate as well. He wasn't even sleeping with 1 woman in each branch. Typically he was sleeping with 1 woman in total within the entire school. And when a relationship ended he let it go. He never tried to force anything. And then in time like all human beings he would forge some other relationship with some other woman and she would be the only one for a while. I am sure there were times he got more hound doggy than that. I have yet to meet a man who isn't that way to some degree. But he was a human being. Please can we keep this factor in mind when we talk about him.

Seung Sahn, was not ruled by food. Only Kimchee. A revolting substance which he did enjoy consuming.
Seung Sahn..... Lived at PZC. In a decent sized room. It was not extravagant. He ate the same food as everyone else. He shared everything he had with everyone he lived with. His robes were not even overly costly. Please stop making things up. You want to object to Kwan Um and to Seung Sahn go ahead. But please do it based on the facts and the realities. It was hardly a perfect place. There is plenty there to take issue with and to point at as controversial.

Many people are ruled by the 5 desires. Including to some degree Zen Master Seung Sahn, because he was a person. Like all of us. He never taught that we should strive to be anything other than human. So though you take statements out of context, your presentation of them is not dissimilar from Fox News's rendering of the Obama presidency. Is there some hypocracy here? Absolutely. Plenty. But the teachings of Buddhism are not the same as the teachings of Jesus and the bible. They are not so... black and white. They are not so hard and clear. The lines are blurry to give room to all of us to think freely for ourselves and to figure out what violates our own sense of decency and free thinking and our inner self. This is not a game and these are not rules of a game. Life is a game that has no rules. What works for you without damaging others? is pretty much a more broad interpretation of the teaching. Zen Master Seung Sahn never set out to damage anyone. Everyone he was involved with was a free thinkign individual that left the commune daily to go to work. They worked in all kinds of different places and were surrounded by people who saw the world differently than they did. And they often went to explore other world views without condemnation. And if they found one they prefered.... They were free to leave. Most of the women Seung Sahn was with had university degrees. Many of them even had masters degrees and such. They were not these weak mind controlled vessels that you seem to want to think they were. How many of them do you know personally? Because, I know most of them personally.

A cult, is a place where you are not allowed to think. Where people tell you what to do every minute of every day. It is a place where untold abuses happen. Where people are starved. Where their ability to think clearly is messed with. At Kwan um, the majority of the practice happens in silence. A bunch of people sitting together silently. Then it's over. Everyone gets up leaves the room goes to their bedroom which is a private bedroom. They get ready for work and they leave the commune for the entire day. They come home for dinner.... They have dinner they go to chant gibberish which most of them don't even know the meaning of, they sit in silence again no one telling anyone anything for a short time. Then, they go to their rooms or to habng out together. People usually go out with friends from outside on the weekends and often bring them home for dinner during the week. The evenings the school is open to the public. Once a week someone talks about Buddhism. I have yet to see a teacher at Kwan Um, tell anyone that there is only one path to enlightenment. I have seen them however encourage people to go check out other branches of buddhism, cuz though different they are interesting in their own way and as valid as Seung Sahn's zen practice. For some people dharma is making candles. This is the teaching. I would know. I was born there spent 30 years involved to some varied degree with that school. And trust me, i'm not indoctrinated. ANd if you don't want to take that from me you can take it from my PhD in physics husband. I left. I have not been to the school in years. Mostly because i live on the other side of the planet now.

It is easy to scream fire and to point. Isn't it? It is easy to take stuff on a web page out of context. And to say horrible things about a man who is dead who was certainly no saint. But you speak from a complete lack of personal experience with the institution, and of people you have never met. People who raised me. Many of the people at Kwan Um today and in the past are highly educated. They found something in the philosophy they liked and wanted to explore.

The Kwan Um branches of live in communities, are not even intended to be places anyone lives long term. They are a place for learning for a time. And then you are kind of supposed to go and take your practice with you. I have seen very few people stay in the community for more than 2 years. I have seen a few that never leave. But most get their own place elsewhere within 2 years and come back irregularly to visit and to go to practice.

30 years is a long time. I have seen everything, all kinds of odd behaviors and craziness and really beautiful ways people are present for eachother.... I have met so many people. I have seen the entire world within one building. Every culture. All of them treated with courtesy and respect. I have known dozens of gay people who were welcomed and loved for who they were as no one cared what their sexual preference was.... Is this place perfect no. Was Seung Sahn, a bit of a dirty dog sometimes yes. But did his actions affect others in the school beyond himself and the woman he was involved with? No. So what makes it anyone else's business that we should put it up as you seem to think on billboards all over the world?

The financial end of things had little to do with Seung Sahn himself. Your claim otherwise doesn't make sense. You see, I have looked at the books myself. Have you? No? Ok. There are some definate weirdnesses but none of them benefited Seung Sahn actually. They benefited other high ranking teachers. Who were also on the various boards. Saying there is ample reason for controversy about this school is a totally correct fair statement. But to call it a cult based on garbage you pull off the internet is.... Well, just seems to me a bit disingenuous. But hey we all get to decide for ourselves where we stand on things. This is how it should be. But i have to say, to me it is like deciding that you don't like pease because you saw their picture on the internet and you decided they were ugly. Rather than because you tried them had some or any personal experience with them, at all, and came to the conclusion they tasted bad based on their internet photo, cuz green is an ugly color.

I am not sure you are correct about Bobby Rhodes.... Zen Master Seung Sahn, was such an open person that the current head teacher may not advertise her own sex life much as her predecesor did not advertise his. i won't say it here, but i strongly doubt she would have slept with Seung Sahn. There are a couple other high ranking teachers who did and or may have, sure. Their appointment to their position, was more about how much experience they have with the practice. What year is it? What year did they become part of the community? Hmmm..... Logic actually took it's course. Should these women not be able to go on in the tradition of buddhism that they have chosen to follow, all because some dirty dog got in their pants 35 years ago or whatever? Should they be punished for that? Some women he slept with found alternatives to this form of practice that they prefered and left of their own volition. They could have stayed and risen like a few did. So can we just apply a bit of reason to this discussion rather than blind judgement? Based on certain trends within commune living?

I am not sure you are correct about Bobby Rhodes.... Zen Master Seung Sahn, was such an open person that the current head teacher may not advertise her own sex life much as her predecesor did not advertise his. i won't say it here, but i strongly doubt she would have slept with Seung Sahn. There are a couple other high ranking teachers who did and or may have, sure. Their appointment to their position, was more about how much experience they have with the practice. What year is it? What year did they become part of the community? Hmmm..... Logic actually took it's course. Should these women not be able to go on in the tradition of buddhism that they have chosen to follow, all because some dirty dog got in their pants 35 years ago or whatever? Should they be punished for that? Some women he slept with found alternatives to this form of practice that they prefered and left of their own volition. They could have stayed and risen like a few did. So can we just apply a bit of reason to this discussion rather than blind judgement? Based on certain trends within commune living?

Oh, there is one more fundimentally important thing to note in this statement about Bobby Rhodes. She was never supposed to take over Kwan Um. She took it over, because the man who was supposed to hold the office she holds now, died tragically some 16ish years ago. So saying he appointed her, because he had sex with her which i have a hard time believing, cuz i actually know Bobby, is innacurate. Buddhism, is incredibly patriarchal. And there was a monk who was supposed to take over after Seung Sahn. Had he not died, he would be the one running everything now. It had been all set up years and years before he died..... It was a fluke of bad luck that put a very hesitant Bobby Rhodes where she is. And not a day goes by that she doesn't think to herself. "I am not the one who should be sitting here steering this thing. It should be the one who was prepared for this duty." But she does it. Quietly and well and with strength and humility.

blablabla...appropriate handle.

Seung Sahn was a FRAUD.
Having sex with a bunch of women who are your students, and then lying about this to the public and students.
So that is ok with blablabla?
Sex with students? And lying about it?
the Zen of deception? You betcha, and Seung Sahn would be proud of his Zen of Lying skills...literally. That is the kind of fake Zen he was practicing, where ANYTHING goes.

Then Seung Sahn telling more lies and saying he was doing it to breed loyalty?
You have to be a complete idiot to believe that.
He was having sex with those women, to have sex with those women, and also to control them.
And he was lying about it.
He was simply a fraud.

I am sorry, but gotta be direct.
Blablabla is full of it.
Notice the constant refrain...everyone was free to leave, the women were free to leave...absolutely disgusting. Completely willfully blind to guys like Seung Sahn who are master persuaders, who know all the skills of soft and hard persuasion, that is what they do for a living.

A so-called Zen Master is in a POSITION OF POWER.
You don't have sex with your students.
What Seung Sahn did is no different than a so-called celibate priest having sex with a bunch of women from the church. When he does that, he needs to LOSE HIS STANDING for life.
Seung Sahn should have resigned when he broke his Vows, or at least when he got busted, and gone into private life, or got married, or become a Swinging Single, so he could have sex on his own time.
Not while posing as a fake Zen Master to naive westerners.

But that is not what sect leaders like Seung Sahn want...they want POWER over people, that is what it is all about. Control, money, sex, and power and being their MASTER. And using sex as a power-tool is how these guys do it, just use people for their own purposes.

To justify the sexual power-plays of the cult leader...classic.
A fake Zen Master abusing his power, to have sex with followers, and line his pockets with their cash. Classic. The same story heard in 100 other sects, with the leader of the sect having sex with his followers, just using everybody.

It just goes on and on.
This so-called school of so-called Zen is using SERIOUS group brainwashing techniques, and hammering the hell out of people at their retreats.
Exhibit A is on public display in the above few posts.

Too much to go into, and will have to come back to it.

Kwan Um School of Zen should be avoided at all costs.
It seems some of the Lifer followers are totally indoctrinated into the lies of the sect, and other recent joiners are aggressive, hypocritical, arrogant, and break every aspect of what Zen should really be about.
This is the sourest and bitterest Zen fruit one has come across.
They are using highly structured techniques of indoctrination on innocent and naive minds, and are breaking them down in these retreats. Of course they accept newbies into the more serious indoctrination, they are the easies to break and control.
They use "Zen" like a figleaf to target newbies, and then hammer their minds to pieces at these retreats...if you resist, they will tell you to stop resisting, eventually you are going to get broken down.
Then they completely indoctrinate you until you believe their Illusions, and Fictions about their Great Leader, the fraud fake Zen Master.

Avoid this fake Zen sect at all costs.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2012 11:09AM by The Anticult.

blablabla, thanks for sharing your experience from inside the school. You don't understand one thing - what you could see because you lived close to Seung Sahn all those years, other students in the school couldn't see because they had only official information provided by the school website, stories told by other teachers, books, Primary Point magazine, ect. I was one of those students, I had practiced for 8 years before I learnt about those scandals. Now the situation is better because you can google a lot of this stuff. But not 10 years ago.

Despite that Kwan Um is still keeping this official, clean image of Seung Sahn. Then what is this all about? If master like him was so controlled by his desires then the whole teaching should change to something more realistic.

I strongly recommned you to read the Sex and the Spiritual Teacher book - [sexandthespiritualteacher.com]. It will be an eye opening read for you. Besides other things you will find out why it is so harmful for every spiritual community if its teacher is keeping sexual relations with his or her students. Even if those relations are consensual.

"Zen master Seung Sahn was a fraud." That statement is not entirely incorrect. You don't get to have sex with women or men or children for that matter while you are claiming to be a celibate monk. That IS fraud. Zen master Seung Sahn, was also just a man. He was slave to the same bodily functions needs and human weaknesses as the rest of us. He taught about dealing with and accepting the human condition. In this respect, he was not at all a fraud. Just weak like the rest of us. So, the truth is not so black and white i am afraid. I am not a fan of sex with students. To me that is fairly dirty and it isn't entirely ethical. I have not said anywhere that it was an acceptable action to take. But, Zen Master Seung Sahn, was also not running to be the highest power in the western world in the way say, Bill Clinton was. He didn't rape or abuse anyone. Everyone who had sex with him had the absolute right to say no. And if you ask any one of them still with the school or who have left the school they will tell you that themselves. I know this you see, because i asked them. Each situation in this life is different. The right and wrong in each situation is different. Though, I agree, unethical here for many reasons. Still, not as simple or black and white as you like to pretend based on what appears to be the taking of his words out of context and teachings of the school out of context. I do not write him a pass for his behavior. But the fact is, his behavior did not affect anyone else. He was meticulously careful about that. Because for him, that would have been a problem had it been causing suffering in any way to other people. So it really isn't that simple.

Well that isn't wholy true. He wasn't having sex to breed loyalty. That is for sure. He wasn't having sex to control people either. He was having sex for the same reason everyone else was having sex. It's a lot of fun isn't it? This is why he was having sex.

Err... Actually no.... He never did lie about it. When confronted about it he was open and honest that he broke his vows as a monk. He apologized to the community quite humbly. You weren't there so you wouldn't have heard it. But you see, I was there. And i did hear it.

hahaha... Oh dear... You have a totally wrong impression of me. No i am not particularly easy to lead around by the nose actually. I grew up watching some pretty questionable stuff. I have seen the best of humanity and some of the worst of it. I left. I don't think i have been there in over 7 years now. I have lived all around the world in multitudes of cultures I have an education that was public. I married someone who doesn't care for cults anymore than i do. And i am happy to call a spade a spade when it is a spade. But for me, a cult is a place where they brain wash you and abuse you rob you blind and starve you to death while telling you that you can't leave for the representative of God on earth will smite you. My experience with Kwan Um, was not perfect no. And as i have said it is fair to call them highly controversial. But calling them a cult is a bit inacurate. I don't really talk to some members of my family anymore. Because i don't care for the mind control games that they like to play. I am not interested. There are some members of the school who do think far too much of themselves and who are almost erecting mini cults around themselves. And that is revolting to me. Unfortunately one of my own family members is one of them. As it was taught by Zen Master Seung Sahn, Kwan um, is highly controversial. As it is done by certain others i will grant you it is absolutely a cult. So, it depends what teacher you are dealing with. And which branch youa re at. Where i grew up, It remains a controversial place certainly.

Seung Sahn, should have given back his vows as a monk before proceeding to have a sexual relationship. He is not the only teacher in the school who does and has on occasion had sex with a student. He was to my knowledge anyway the only monk that did. But seeing as there are branches all over the world of Kwan Um, i would only put so much faith in that statement. I have trouble believing no others ever did. But if they did it wasn't happening where i was hearing about it.

And i find the tone that you take calling me an idiot and full of it really does violate the rules of this forum. I have not called you any names. I have said only that you are taking some things ourt of context and operating and speaking of somethings with a lack of larger perspective and lacking the understanding that nothing in this world is absolute nor is it black and white. I have not put in energy to say horrible things about you personally and i will not do so. I was raised better than that. And i am hoping the moderator takes notice. Because some of this commentary is just outright offensive and unnescesarily so.

Zen Master Seung Sahn, was a cohabitant of an intentional community. He was one of many. One morning a week we gathered to talk about stuff. When something was a problem for us. Everything got aired. Zen Master Seung Sahn, could barely take part in those meetings given the state of his english. So, he was more in some respects at the whim of the sommunity than the community was of him. He was living as a monk, granted that was pretend yes. But he was living for free certainly. The monks in our school... They don't live lavishly. I have been inside his personal room. It was not large. It was not small. It was not decked out in gold. And he didn't have access to the money. He just accepted the small sum to survive on that the board of directors of which i do not believe that he was, wanted to give to him and to other monks each month. Should he have been getting that since he was not really a monk? No. Perhaps not. But it was not like he was winning the lottery on a monthly basis either able to buy fancy cars and pay for fancy girlfriends. He lived a very simple life.... I was there. I watched him.

And it is a bit different than what a celibate priest does for several reasons.

1. A celibate priest claims to be a spokesperson for God. Zen Master Seung Sahn made no such claim. Refusing to have sex with him was not going to anger God. According to the teachings of Kwan Um, *YOUR* mind is God. NOT someone else's mind, YOURS. So the only way to piss off God, was to cause yourself to get mad at you. Which is a bit different than a priest. Sorry but it is. It is nowhere near as loaded as your version with the Priest.

2. It was also different, because People don't live in their church in western culture so much. In the Kwan Um school, many people lived there. It was a community and a tight knit one. Seung Sahn lived there as *PART* of the community. And yes he was treated with some deference. Because of his cultural paradigm more than anything else. The teachers today, are not viewed nor are they treated with that same standard of respect actually. Because their culture does not demand it. At least not in the USA. Perhaps the branches in Asia. The waters become muddy when you are not just a teacher but you are also just a person living as part of a tight knit community. Does it excuse his lack of ethics? Oh not a chance. But it does change the circumstances a bit and it certainly is not the same thing as a celibate priest abusing his representation of god capacity.

Many zen masters in our school our married. They are not celibate they do not typically take vows of celibacy. My own family kinda proves that. But yes, I agree, it would have been better if he had confessed before getting nailed for it at which time he did NOT lie but spoke truthfully that the event/s had happened. At that point, he should have taken back his vows for a few years to consider what he really wanted for his life. Some other zen masters in our school have actually done just that. They opted to return to life as celibate monks and they remained celibate until they had returned their vows. Which is i think what Seung Sahn should have done. It would have been more honest.

Errr.... I don't think i was justifying anything. I was trying to shed light and put some perspective to what happened and how it could happen as it did. To make the point that some things are not entirely black and white. Western morals, were not something Seung Sahn had. He didn't see things like you did. Things were not black and white. They still aren't. But i agree completely, being a monk and having sex with students is crap and it isn't cool. But to sit here and claim that he did it to control people.... You weren't there. You never met the guy. How can you sit there asserting what his motivation was? I was there. I knew him well.... I lived with him. He was part of my family.... I know him as well as i know my own father. And i can tell you that controlling other people is more my dad's MO. Zen Master Seung Sahn, wanted nothing to do with that and that was never his intention.