I am not a lifer. Members of my family may be. But actually I am not. I prefer atheism. I prefer total freedom from rituatlized anything. And so i have chosen that for myself. I am married to a PhD in theoretical physics. My home is frequently the gathering place of some of the greatest minds of science. I am opposed to believing in anything without proof. I am opposed to even believing there is a difference between ego and true self without physical evidence. I am simply trying to shed some light on the fact that you are making a not black and white situation black and white. As well as trying to share with you what the place is like beyond the out of context sound bites. Because it is misleading and a misrepresentation as used in the context and way you are using them. May i add i don't even have communication with the members of my family that are still involved with the place. I am quite unbiast. You may wish to believe me biast. But i have no vested interest in protecting that place or what it teaches. I am simply speaking up because much of what you are presenting is an innacurate representation of what went on there. The place is highly controversial. And i would tell that to anyone that wanted to live there.

It wasn't a sexual power play. It was a play for sex cuz it's fun. I was there. Where were you? I don't remember you being there for some reason. They guy couldn't have been getting much money from the community. Very little actually. Plus the same food and utilities the rest of us were getting. He was hardly living like a king. He was a monk plus some recreational sex. Seung Sahn, was there for the same reason everyone was there. They were looking to control their own minds and their own lives and their own persons in order to make good decisions in life. God knows, he certainly needed some help with decision making. Some of his choices were hardly good ones.

And some of what you are saying about the school and it's techniques are outright slanderous in their intent to damage the school. I have been agressive yes perhaps a bit. But i have not crossed any lines to be particularly rude or insulting. All i have done is offered the perspective of a person who actually knows some of these people and has had a long term relationship with the institution in question. I have even given you some interesting tips to some of the problems. For example, the cambridge budhist association, came into existence because of some financial dealing of Kwan Um. People found those dealings benefited one high ranking teacher in particular financially to the detrimant of the community. Many people left. Some of the folks i was closest to. Some of the folks i found more trust worthy than my biological family. There is plenty at Kwan um to be investigated very carefully. Many things about the place are quite controversial. Certain people have at times taken advantage. I would interact with it with care if i were going to interact with it. And i would keep strong ties outside the community too. As a sanity check at all times and a balance as well as an anchor. Because in tight knit groups things can happen to one's own sense of identity and there is personal growth and then there is a certain degree of community mind. Which does not necesarily equal cult. Everyone left over the money scandal. I lost half of my world that day. I still haven't gotten over it.... I do not blindly support this institution and i am not some brain washed idiot. I am happy to critisize what needs criticism. But the world remains a place that comes in many shades of gray. And to misrepresent me as some brainwashed idiot, is really disturbing and i have seen similar techniques used by a few different teachers at Kwan Um over the years. None of them ended up lasting long with the community. Because you see bullying your perspective in such a way, is as bad as sleeping with your students. It is in and of itself a cult tool frequently used to force people into taking a position they don't want to or to deny them the freedom of thought and the right to be heard and taken for who and what they are. All i am doing here is trying to prevent you from bullying a forum full of people and future readers into believing something that actually isn't true. And you forget, that where i grew up i have seen everything. So don't think this technique has any power over me. It doesn't and i am going to be too polite to discuss how it makes the person employing it as a tool look. I don't think it does a service to your position at all.

blablabla wrote:

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. I prefer total freedom from rituatlized anything. And so i have chosen that for myself. I am married to a PhD in theoretical physics. My home is frequently the gathering place of some of the greatest minds of science.

Spell Check:

The word is actually spelled with ' 'ritualized' (American English) or 'ritualised' (British English)

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I am quite unbiast. You may wish to believe me biast.

'Biased' is spelled with an 'ed' at the end, not 'st'. Thought it would be worth a look, since this spelling error is repeated.

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Bias | Define Bias at Dictionary.com/ˈbaɪəs/ Show Spelled [bahy-uhs] Show IPA noun, adjective, adverb, verb, bi·
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bias - definition of bias by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and ...A line going diagonally across the grain of fabric: Cut the cloth on the bias. 2. a. A
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biased - definition of biased by the Free Online Dictionary ...Marked by or exhibiting bias; prejudiced: gave a biased account of the trial.
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Bias - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionarya line diagonal to the grain of a fabric; especially : a line at a 45 degree angle to
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Definition for bias - Oxford Dictionaries Online (World English)Define bias. What is bias? bias meaning, synonyms and audio pronunciation and
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bias noun (PREFERENCE) - definition in British English Dictionary ...bias noun (PREFERENCE) - definition, audio pronunciation, synonyms and more
for bias noun (PREFERENCE): often supporting or opposing a particular ...
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Substitution Bias - Dictionary Definition of Substitution BiasDefinition: Substitution bias is a possible problem with a price index. Consumers
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Urban Dictionary: biasIn Kpop, the member of an idol group that is your favorite. A person may have
one ultimate bias, and many other biases from other idol groups, or o...
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bias - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.comDefinition of bias : Use the noun bias to mean a preference for one thing over
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All this and selecting the name 'blablabla' ?


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blablabla
Said as one word. A response to doubts/critisms of others.
Tag-along:Why are we doing this, it isn't going to work...

Main Schemer: Blablabla. Of course it will.
buy blablabla mugs & shirts
blah indifference blah blah blah response one word
by sucked in by the masses Apr 25, 2009 share this add a video

2. BLABLABLA
something you might say when you're not intersssed in whats said.
-something you might say when you're not inte...
-sure! blablabla!
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by steingrim Jun 3, 2005 share this add a video

Lubos, I am really sorry you had that kind of an experience. It makes me sad. Because it wasn't cool. I have never seen anyone hide the reality of what Seung Sahn did. Until now i have never even heard of it. I am sorry you were lied to. And that is really a shame. Because that isn't the Kwan Um that i know and that i grew up in. I don't think they need to stick the information up on their website. BUT when the question is asked they have a duty to answer it fully and completely and to disclose all of the facts and just what happened. If they fail to do that, then I would object to them remaining as a teacher in Kwan Um.

Enschuldigung Corboy, bitte. Ich habe leigastani. Ich bin meer komfortabel in deutsch. Sprichen sie deutsch, bitte? Oder, puhu Suomi? that would be more comfortable also. Swedish, dutch, or norwegian. Take your pick. English is hardly the only language int he world. And when you are both dyslexic und multi lingual, your english tends to be a right mess. I apologize. It would be easier at this point to talk in german. Yes i understand the words i use perfectly. My spelling however does get messed up. Sorry. But that hardly makes what i said irrelevant. Nor does it make it incorrect. Just spelled wrong.

Hello everyone! I am excited about this discussion everyone is having about Zen. I apologize if my grammar is a bit off, I am a Japanese citizen but I have been college educated in the US. I am working on becoming a citizen of the US and I enjoy the many differences this country offers. Soto tradition has been practiced by family for a few generations. There are many forms of zen practice in Japan that may seem mysterous to a westerner, for examlpe Pure Land Buddhism has mysterious elements like digital buddah statues.
In Japan there are two major forms of Zen practiced by millions of people, renzai and soto.
I was exposed to the American style of Zen when I attended graduate school in the San Francisco Bay area and this was very wonderful. Many great teachers have very wonderful schools of zen in this country. Daisetsu Teitaro Suzuki was a strong zen practicioner and wrote books in english for the western mind to understand zen very clearly.

I found this forum searching for more information about zen master seung sahn. I am not sure if this forum is discussing the zen form of buddhist practice is a cult?
The title mentions Seung sahn and there is a lot of discussion about his behavior as a monk. I also see a lot of misrepresentation of zen.

zen master seung sahn is a real zen master from the korean tradition of buddhism, Jogye. Jogye is a very big buddhist tradition in korea. Seung sahn started an american style korean zen practice, Kwan Um School. He has written a book The Compass of Zen that is very digestable teachings for westerners, but still contains the dharma. This book sits in the library at the american soto center I attend and my teacher makes reference to teachings in this book. Our teacher especially encourages western students to read Daisetsu Teitaro Suzuki, Seung Sahn and Thich Nhat Hanh writings, but these books are valuable to ALL students of zen.

I know how sensitive racism is in the US, but seung sahns behavior as a monk is not suprising for a korean monk. There are many stories like this about monks who gamble, drink or have sexual affairs. This is human behavior and common among Korean buddhist monks. This does not make his teaching incorrect, only his actions. Unfortunately his actions may turn many westerners away from zen practice.
I have not known seung sahn, but I have met several of his students. Yes, there are differences in the style of practice, for example soto will emphasize correct breathing and posture, very individual, but Kwan um emphasizes chanting and working together. Differences yet the same, all zen schools share the dharma. It is very different then christianity in the US, each church claims to have the only correct philosophy.
There is much exchange among all schools of zen, especially in America which is wonderful! Kwan Um is just korean style zen and Kwan um teachers have strong dharma! All zen masters, including Kwan Um, must have a koan practice with zen masters from other schools like soto, or Ch'an style schools. This way of koan practice is important for maintaining a sharp mind. Also, 90 day silent retreats are very common in all countries with strong zen practice, this is not brainwashing, this is a commitment to the dharma. People who are not monks can experience the life of a monk during these times. The bowing is also common among all buddhists, not only zen. these are bows of repentence, my catholic friend calls them confession. I hope i can help in any way!

Sorry, I do not mean to excuse the behavior of Seung Sahn. He is Korean, in korea there is still a strong confuscious style buddhism that emphasizes personal relationships.
For a korean man or monk, a sexual encounter can be explained the way Seung Sahn says, because that is a very Korean style and would be accepted in Korea. Although, that is becoming old fashioned in Korea as the country is becoming more westernized.

Seung Sahn should have respected the traditions of America and not have behaved in such a manner. He was not only an ambassedor of Korean style zen, but also of zen as a whole tradition. He would have known not to behave like a korean as a guest and teacher in America. So I am not excusing him of his behavior.

Because I am Japanese, my words about Korean's may sound racial, but I love the Korean people and they would agree. I encourage you to ask a Korean about Seung Sahn's behavior.

Having spent some serious time on Korea myself as a child, due to the association with Kwan um and who my parents are.... I can say Iko is correct. It is a different cultural norm.

In Korea, many monks do not become monks because they choose to. In Korea, they have a different system. The monastery takes care of the ones who can not care for themselves. Part of getting that help or being allowed to reside in the monastery means taking a bunch of vows that you don't entirely mean to keep. And so it is a cultural norm for monks to have sex. For example, many little boys as young as 2 and 3 years old are made monks. They are orphans and the monks then take them in and raise them. Later some of them give up their vows, but many remain given the lack of other experience in life. And still, in the safety of their monasteries, they continue to grow as people. And some do things they shouldn't and there is a certain cultural understanding for such humaness that there isn't in the USA. Seung Sahn, came from a different culture. He should have had more respect for the culture he came to live in. My whole life I have been wandering the planet. Right now I am in Vienna Austria. It is incredibly hard to just let go of your cultural norms. No one who has never gone to truly live for spans of time in places they are not equipped culturally to live in can understand it. But he could have tried harder to have more respect for the american culture.

Lubo, there was 1 other thing I wanted to say to you. Iko, is also correct there is a lot of back and forth between the schools of Budhism in the USA. Not only that there is a lot of turn over in the commune habitation situation within Kwan Um. It doesn't take decades to become a teacher. Most people manage it within 2 years. Then usually halfway through their second year for whatever reason they opt to leave. Or to move out and to remain an affiliated teacher teaching in the school. Some last another few years inside the school. But most of our teachers, are not. How shall I put this.... Long timers. You may have been speaking to someone who had been there for a couple years. They may not have been willing to discuss it with you because they had never asked the question themselves for their own reasons. They may not have known what to tell you about it because they weren't there when it happened. I would advise asking Bobby Rhodes herself. Do it quietly and pick a moment apropriate and if she doesn't give you the full scoop I would be shocked. Also teachers like Mark Houghton, if you again aproach at an aproriate moment I am sure, since he was involved in blowing the lid off the whole thing, that he would tell you the details quite openly and in full. Or Jane Dobisch, or any other of the teachers that have been there for literally decades. But if you are just asking this question of someone who doesn't know the details themselves..... Ofcourse they are not going to be particularly open to talking about it. If you did talk to a long timer, then I am shocked and disgusted if they did not provide you with a full accounting of what occurred because they should have. Full disclosure is only proper. Does it have to go up on a billboard? No. But if someone chooses a quiet moment and asks the question, they must be told in full what happened. And if they did not tell you then that is really really really bad. And next time I see them all, I will be joyful to be the one to give everyone of them the you know what kicking they need and deserve not being straight about that information.

I to was a member of this group for over twenty years..I started just after the sexual scandal came to light and was unaware of it for a long time.When it came to light for me it was downplayed a lot and spoken of very little.It is hard when someone you look up to is not what you thought.Over the years I have had many feelings on the subject,ultimately for myself the practice and great teaching was more important then the personalities invovled.Ultimately though after many years ,again in my opinion,the nature of the group held back the practice so I left.It is not a cult in the definition usually held for that word.Though any group seems to have its own view from the inside not necessarily healthy when views from the outside.
Iko made a good point about korean culture,that my be true in korea.This is not korea and that behaviour is not acceptable in any manor..Other people in that group have done similar things,some are no longer in the group,though some are still teaching.If one is lead by poor example they get poor results.Don't get me wrong I love Soen Sa Nim for his drive and his commitment.He taught coorect direction and he was a great example of that.There is a place in zen practice for "crazy wisdom" teachers.THEY SOULD NOT HAVE STUDENTS.Teachers teach by example so be very careful !!!