Run Forest Run, let me tell you something. I know that this is not something you have experienced yourself in that process.
The number one motivation of any devotee in general is bliss. It is the happiness they get from relating to Krishna.
They are blissheads instead of potheads. And instead of wake and bake, they wake and bliss out.
The fact that a person walks around with oozing eczema and wear same clothes for 10 years is not left without rewards.
That person does not care for their own bodies but give all their time 24/7 to work for free making money for Wailana.
They do not see how they are being used for free.
They do not focus on self realization. I can assure you of that.
Some internal bliss, krishna or any deity winking at you in their pictures, krishna arranging something favorable in your life….
We must start to accept and understand that devotees are mainly addicts and not advanced souls.
When I speak to any of them now, I feel like sticking a pacifier into their mouth.
(sorry I know. Am massively arrogant and holier than thou).
They try and preach to me in the only language they know. A very limited fanatical view.
They run on bliss, peace and happiness fuel. The day you take those goodies aside, Nutler and his plastic wife would be washing their own clothes and cooking their own meals.
The gurus have zero potency without the transcendental feelings that is offered to devotees. And they are in total illusion that this is something that is distributed by guru.
If a person wants to please the dieties, they will reward them even if the guru is fake, abusive…
The devotee thinks that by pleasing guru, they are pleasing god. And when they get the bliss reward, they are convinced that it is because of their 30 hours free labor to butler.
And yes, this process can change the heart.
People can become kinder, more compassionate, forgiving, tolerant…
But it also makes one extremely vulnerable to outside influences.
So these poor souls transform and must handle a jungle like society as well as some demon possessed and narcissists within the groups.
There are many of the teachings of the gita that I have attained outside the group. Without following any injunctions…
I got there via inner guidance and life experiences (hardships). No human guru can ever match the inner guru (s).
To surrender that innate guidnace to another human being is soul suicide.
Krishna Consc. or any religious path is like going to a travel agency and let him or her organize your trip.
Versus you sitting down, doing your research, organizing your own journey…
Even though they say spiritual life aka Krishna Consc is not for the lazy, it actually is.
When you let books and gurus dictate all your moves, you are indeed spiritualy lazy.
And I guess this is where they are all at. That false sense of advancement and superiority (because WE HOLD THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH).
Deep down they live in fear like little helpless toddlers.
Fear of being displeasing, saying or doing the wrong thing, getting kicked out of the group, messing up…
It is all a nice make belief land of milk, honey and poison.
Wouldn’t self realization carry with it the seed of 20/20 vision?
Shouldn’t the veil of Maya lift when a soul reaches that state?
These people may have some vision issues because they cannot even see the abuse and non sense in a spiritial setting. They were not able to recognize imitation pure devotees in 40 years.
So what is self realization really? Yes I guess I have not firgured that one out either. Because I have never met a devotee of any guru out there that have impressed me with their insights.
They are just like parrots who repeat what guru or sastra say.
I guess self realization to them is to say goodbye to the vessel that carries your soul. Forget that the body needs some care too.
Walk around sleepless, holes in your clothes, knowing that you are an eternal slave of the servant of the servant of the servant…
Even though it all makes me cringe now, at one point I too swam in that ocean of bliss and illusion.
I thought I was a hot shot for waking up at 5 am every morning to chant 12 rounds and do few days fasting…
The happiness and satisfaction of not being so much the slave of your senses and mind.
But now you are the slave of your lunatic guru and their lunatic mind.
Like escaping a hungry tiger just to step on a poisonous snake.
It all makes total sense.
I know I may repeat myself but it is important to understand that many who enter this path are only motivated by bliss.
The path of bhakti is mainly a worship and rewards factory.
The more you invest, the more you get back.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let us remember what ACB said:
>
> “I have never said that Siddhasvarupa is a pure
> devotee.* That is simply concoction. Now I am
> going to India in few weeks and I shall stop at
> Hawaii and take Siddhaswarupananda to India for
> training him up properly”.

[vanisource.org]

Quote

I have never said that Siddhasvarupa is a pure devotee.* That is simply concoction.

[vaniquotes.org])

Quote

There is no question that Siddha Svarupa is only pure devotee and no one else is pure devotee. All of my disciples, as soon as they surrender themselves to Krsna, they become pure devotees actually.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That person does not care for their own bodies but
> give all their time 24/7 to work for free making
> money for Wailana.

Quote

Chapter 14, Verse 12
O chief of the Bharatas, when there is an increase in the mode of passion, the symptoms of great attachment, uncontrollable desire, hankering, and intense endeavor develop.

[asitis.com]

Quote

Chapter 17, Verse 4
Men in the mode of goodness worship the demigods; those in the mode of passion worship the demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits.

Quote

Chapter 17, Verse 5-6
Those who undergo severe austerities and penances not recommended in the scriptures, performing them out of pride, egotism, lust and attachment, who are impelled by passion and who torture their bodily organs as well as the Supersoul dwelling within are to be known as demons.

Quote

Chapter 17, Verse 18
Those ostentatious penances and austerities which are performed in order to gain respect, honor and reverence are said to be in the mode of passion. They are neither stable nor permanent.

[asitis.com]

Quote

Chapter 6, Verse 17
He who is temperate in his habits of eating, sleeping, working and recreation can mitigate all material pains by practicing the yoga system.

I told you, guys following Hawaia Sampradaya...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2022 07:48PM by Culthusiast.

Truth Wins,

I have written about the spiritual addiction component in these groups many times. I am aware of the "bliss" affect the average person seeks or even experiences for some time. It may even be a lifetime for that matter. But rarely. Eventually what it transforms into is a hardened ego related to the time investment. It is basically hard if not impossible to admit that we have wasted our time in some effort. Especially when that effort is so emotionally charged and has given us happiness. I agree that one gets out of things what they put in. The question is what are you getting out of it exactly? Fantasy maybe? Comradery and sense of community, for sure. Those are all good things. but the question is whether it's of a better quality than any other spiritual group? Or is it at the expense of subscribing to a cult mentality, personality worship and loss of true individuality and individualism in exchange for group-group think. and what is the group thinking about anyway? How to spread myths to people? How to make "less fortunate" people chant a random matra or worship some schmuck guru?

The bliss that is experienced in most of these groups is by virtue of the activities being pleasant. If you ever see footage of a war torn village in Africa and the villagers are in a circle singing and making food and helping each other repair from war or some ebola or whatever, it is very clear that they are "happy", even blissful in such endeavors. Basically, we are wired to get an emotional and chemical kick out of service and activities like singing, dancing and eating food we made together.

All cultures have this. Some of these activities are directly linked to god and result in a spiritual component, but many are irrespective of worshipping any specific popular concept of god. Beatlemania results in a young woman building up such emotional frenzy that she faints out of sheer "bliss" at seeing her object of affection. Many sports fanatics are like that too.

Bhakti practices developed in village settings. The basic formula is of giving praise, gratitude, contemplative mediation on positive ideas etc. All great things that we should foster or strive for in or outside of a cult setting. Preferably out. If one needs the constant reinforcement of a group to "behave" or live a worthy life, that is a sad state to be in. Hanging out with people and doing activities together is great: Feeding poor people, solving social issues etc. Sitting in a stuffy temple room listening to some old-timer go on and on about the same old bullshit—not so much.

The issues arise when we start to convince ourselves, out of contempt for society and the outside world, that there is nothing beyond the confines of the cult ideology. So in effect, we have trapped ourselves in a very small cell where some very fractional dogma dictates who and what we are to be. For better or worse. I have seen people become better humans by joining the hare krishna. I have also seen crooked people join and take their crookedness into religion. Nothing about the religion changes that about them. So much for the power of the holy name that "if chanted even once purifies all of our sins!"...

In the end, we have assorted concerns on this forum. Some have lived through unnecessary austerity and forced/fear-based ideology as kids. Others have joined as adults and seen that eventually, they were simply working for free for a guru who lived in a beach house and had obvious psychological issues. And still others are more concerned about the diversions in siddhanta/teachings and the specific details of the approach to the practice.

My general approach has mostly been related to the idea that I feel it is all a bunch of mental garbage. It's very rarely something that left me with clarity and uplifting feelings. It often degraded my self image (or I felt degraded by virtue of some of the teachings), left me with abstract ideas rather than concrete answers, and eventually lost its allure on many levels as I studied the history of the cult, the gods, the scriptures and the country of its origin. I saw clearly that it had little to no relation point to me.

Now, I was not born into this. But I was 100% more serious about it than any of my friends who where. In seeing that, I also witnessed that they approached such a spiritual system in a completely different way than I did. To them, it was all they knew and they were taught at a young age to never question it. It was offensive, detrimental, symbolic of their fallen status to do so. I had that too, as I was young when we joined, but I always felt something was off. Much of it felt forced. And the deeper I went into it, the more traditional aspects of the cult I was exposed to it became clear that this was a completely artificial imposition on the mind. From the dress code, the shaved heads, the tilak, sikha, neckbeads, beadbags, rituals, overt expressions of devotion even when there was no real reason for it...

Bliss is a state of focused happiness. Where nothing else matters and all that we have is a feeling of genuine well being and satisfaction with whatever it is that is going on (this is a strictly material phenomenon produced by the brain and chemistry in the body). I sometimes will put headphones on and hear some music that makes my hair stand on end and I feel really emotionally in tune with the whole experience. I may also take a warm bath or eat some tasty food or have some great sex and in that moment I am feeling some "bliss". Any activity that you enjoy or have some positive mental associations with can produce such deep feelings.

You say the process can change people and make them more kind and compassionate etc. I don't believe that. I don't feel that simply chanting some mantra or doing some "seva" creates virtues and moral considerations. We have all seen devotees who are far from peaceful and have been at it for 30-40 years+. People who are peaceful or compassionate or morally just are likely this way because of many other factors and were like that when they became devotees. In fact, the general ideology attracts such people—sensitive, gentle, thoughtful etc.

I often call the whole krishna conception a type of pastoral romanticism. It is actually very much suited to the hippie mindset.There is a childlike naivety to it that attracts, as you say, bliss addicts.

I agree with most that you say. I do not feel that there is an inherent power in the process nor do I feel or believe in the nuanced mythology as anything more than symbolic ideas of human psychology and mental states.

Some people in this cult are already successful in some way. They may be educated, business owners or have great jobs or an otherwise rich and fulfilling lifestyle: Surfing, finding time to do yoga or exercise. They may be in positions of power such as a boss, manager or some sort of leadership role. Such people may tell the other devotees how krishna and butler are responsible for their success or happiness in life. But in fact they are simply lucky and driven people. They are motivated by what makes them feel good. That's it. No magic. The rest of the devotees who are poor or disadvantaged in some way by mental illness or economic hardships etc. They may continue to "practice" and they may be happy when they are in a community setting, but they will likely never be as "happy" as the devotee who is economically successful or taken care of by others.

I recall programs where Katyayani would come and everyone fell at her feet, because she was a "pure devotee". I don't recall her ever really giving lectures, she mostly led kirtans and then some other guy would read and give a short lecture from gita. Katyayani was a successful person. Her husband was wealthy, she had a cooking show, authored books and because she was labeled a "pure devotee" all manner of free help was offered to her. I'd be blissful too.

Faith is a powerful thing. Bhaktivedanta came to the west with the desire to spread some ideas of gaudiya vaishnavism to the americans. He was helped by rich India's to come to the west, and as an aging man he had a type of allure over the hippies who saw him chanting in the park. He no doubt believed wholesale in what he was doing. He had one translated bhagavatm canto under his belt and in several years time, with the help of his followers, he completed other translations and built a movement that has spread ever since. Today, most temples of his are empty, many devotees dress in normal western clothes and have typical ambitions: Go to college, get a job, raise a family and maintain some connection with the cult. Really not much different than the average Christian.

As a general rule, the average kirtan in the west is much different than in third-world countries. We used to go on kirtan in small villages in India and the Philippines and kids would swarm around because it was fun and they wanted some sweet treats or food we were giving out. They could care less if we were singing things in french or siberian.

In America, despite much general assimilation and acceptance, the average kritan is looked at as some sort of bizarre event/anomaly. Almost as if it is a performance for entertainment. On book distribution we would often ask people "Do you know who you are?" or other similar questions and then we would launch into a monologue at the slightest show of interest. I have seen people grab a bhagavad gita and toss it in the trash a few meters later.

Getting money from the general public to support the temples and other programs of the cult is a prime mission. In Butlers group it was less noble and often it was to make money for one of butlers private projects which could range from air filtration systems that cost half a million to install or failed movie ambitions or cassava chips and noni juice for wailana. Devotional service was no longer the simple act of offering a "leaf, flower, fruit or water" to your god, but instead a complex web of idiotic endeavors.

In ISKCON too. Much money is raised to build fancy temples that stand empty for the most part. The Mayapur temple has cost an estimated 72 million thus far. The planetarium at this dear project of Prabhupadas teaches people that the sun is pulled around by a horse-drawn chariot.

One of my guru's had a lone disciple woman who was worked to the bone to go do what devotees called the "pick". It's the practice of approaching random stangers on the street (unassuming tourists usually) and manipulating them into giving money for a completely fake charity (feeding kids in Bangladesh). In fact, the money is going to pay for the guru and his wife to live on a ocean front property in Hawaii (not Butler, different gaudiya guru). 100+ acres with a small garage temple that hosts a small 20-30 person feast once a week of expired foodbank food. All supported by a young mataji godsister of mine tricking people to give money to feed starving indian kids.

This is a common practice in ISKCON. To this day many devotees actually support themselves just by doing the "pick" routine. It was made famous in airports. A group of devotees would pile into vans and go to LAX or other airports around america and the UK and scam people.

Tulsi Gabbards whole donation website is also a scam. There is literally no place on her website where you are informed as to where the money actually goes. It is basically a way for devotees to donate money to Butler without it being taxable. Very smart. Crooked, but smart.

Many of these gurus had no problem cheating people or lowering their religious standards to appeal to people. They had faith, no question. Bhaktisiddhanta famously said that he was willing to serve meat in his temple if it meant he can attract people to come to the temple/math. He himself wore leather shoes and rode in cars, something that was forbidden in the sanyassi order for years. A sanyassi was not to ride in a horse-drawn carriage or use any type of trasport, now sayassis are flying in first class with 20 disciples massaging them and bringing them extra peanuts because they are preaching "krishna bhakti".

The average guru nowadays is on zoom calls all day managing assorted financial affairs.

The average devotee nowadays does not chant 16 rounds or even 4. They chant when they can but spend hours on social media "liking" pictures of kirshna and their guru.

The average devotee is not studying anything or trying to learn more or question their spiritual life in any meaningful way. They do go forward out of fear. They fear death, they fear the unknown and they like the feeling of "knowing" and being self-righteous. That is what Bhaktisiddhanta did. He was so fixated on trying to prove the usefulness of a dead cult that he repackaged it for the western mind. Or, at the time, the intelligent westernized indian. He wanted to appeal to the intelligentsia and tried to make the childish hare krishna philosophy appear to be some deep systematic ideology. But it was not. It is and always has been reduced to nothing more than playing pretend. It took less than 200 years from the time of chaitanya to have the cult devolve into a bunch of sahajiya freaks and it barely took 100 years after saraswati thakur for it to turn once again into a mickey mouse show. Every time it attempts to grow or get bigger than a few people living in a small ashram it falls apart. It was never meant to be a "every town and village" kind of a cult. It's best suited to small bhajan kutirs and a few babjis. I'm serious. It's not every successful when it attempts to grow and appeal to the mainstream. Which is ironic because the whole sell point of the cult is that the chanting is the "yuga dharma", but alas it never quite catches on. The reason is because it is a cult and the rhetoric of Bhaktisiddhanta was very much a "boys club", private, secret, only-the-special-people, VIP approach (I'm not being unfair—read his writtings—many are very inflexible, totalitarian ideologies). It's not for the average person and eventually, people feel it. The rhetoric of surrendering to the guru, the hardline philosophical stances and the actual lack of credible evidence for many of their claims makes it a very hard pill to swallow for many. So in the end there are few if any real serious practitioners out there. Most folks just enjoy it like chritians like chritiantly. They feel "saved' as long as they chant once a week at the Sunday gathering. And that part is totally doable.

Have any of you ever read this book?: [www.indiadivine.org]

Anyway, it's got to be the biggest pile of meandering mind trash I have read in a long time. In fact I have never found any writings of Bhaktisiddhanta to have any coherence or structure. Just an endless meandering stream of consciousness with no resolution or goal in sight.

I am on the hunt for some Nadia Prakash articles as well since they have apparently digitized all of them. Does anyone know where to get a hold of those? I'm also curious if any actual records exist of the debates these so-called scholar devotees won. There is always some claim that Chaitanya defeated assorted "mayavadhis" and such and such acharya defeated this or that group. Where is all that? I want to see what they said that was considered a "defeat". I'm sick and tired of all these bold claims these groups make with no proof. When the Chaitanya Charitamrita claimed the "earth shook" when he danced, I want to see even one record of earthquake activity happening in Orissa during that time. I'm done with claims of secret visions, mystic mumbo jumbo and dreams used as valid authoritative proof.

Read the above. It's relatively short. One leaves the whole experience more confused as to the author's point and what in the world he is on about. That pretty much sums up most of the books in this cult. I am not even talking about the myths. Those can be incoherent and naive, but at least they are just stories offering some parable on morality or dharmic ideology.

Culthusiast, if you want to read an intelligible analysis of guna theory, you can find that here: [www.academia.edu]

In the meantime, such verses from gita offer little rational explanation for anything. A verse like this "He who is temperate in his habits of eating, sleeping, working and recreation can mitigate all material pains by practicing the yoga system." Bhaktivedanta used to stay up zonked on snuff tobacco dictating purports all odd hours of the night. Is that temperate?

Does not explain anything meaningful. What is temperance? How is it quantified and qualified? Is eating ghee and rice off the floor like Bhaktisiddhanta did considered "temperance"?

Is there really any way to "mitigate all material pains" as the verse claims? I think not. Scriptures are full of fluff statements like this that offer no practical advice but make promises that cannot be fulfilled or kept. Meanwhile, gurus do suffer pain, get bent by time and shit themselves as death approaches. No amount of "Manjari bhava" ever changed that fact.

Even the words "yoga system" are really meaningless. What yoga system? Is there even one that is clearly and fully described and agreed upon? One scripture says plug your left nostril, another your right, sit on kusha grass or lion skin or facing east, meditate on your breath, on the "supersoul", observe consciousness streams, chant this mantra, or wait, that one maybe? Stand on one leg, twirl around and sit on a ghee lamp while you're at it!

People like simplistic feel-good rhetoric but they rarely try to understand anything that is being stated. Instead of quoting, say something that is authentically your personal insight into the matter. That is what I am posting. Not some assortment of verses from archaic scritputes that offer no resolution to the reality that a leagion of fools worships Chris Butler Jagged Guru Siddhaswarupananda like god on earth for blowing hot air up their asses.

Read the above pdf of Bhaktisiddhantas words versus the article on Guna Theory and tell me which one is more digestible, tangible, rational and susinct.

Devotees pour hundreds of hours in translating such works, archiving them and trying to systematically categorize the words fo sastra and guru, but to no avail. Afer millions of pages a person in all honestly is no closer to having a valid picture of it all then when they started. If anything, they are more confused. It's no wonder that at the end of the day devotees are just told to trust the process and just chant.

One thing that I have noticed with Indian philosophy and spirituality, in general, is that it's shrouded in layers of opinions and unnecessary complexity (and obvious, proven interpolation). It's almost as if the ego of the ancient sages/brahmans or whatever writers did not allow them to admit that they did not know certain things. And instead, they distracted and deflected by covering it all in layers of convoluted ideas that don't really answer or give any insight. It's really a pattern I've noticed in one scripture and commentary after another.

In the above PDF of Saraswati thakur there is page after page of trying to establish the position of who and what is a "brahmin". Why? Why does it even matter? This philosophy is not about that at all. It's not about ritual/caste brahmanism. But alas, they can not escape dealing with the issue since they claim their ideas are "vedic", they must establish some roundabout association with them being "real" brahmins and everyone else being "false brahmins". None of the stuff even ads up. There are quotes, as usual, from Vaishnava texts supporting the parts he wants to support his statements and then avoiing other texts as needed. Cherry-picking bias at it's zenith.

It's like trying to establish the superiority of Mormonism as an authentic Christian faith by quoting Joseph smith as revelation. How convenient. An entire massive body of structural work makes little to no mention of the Radha goddess, the so-called maha-mantra and any real established superiority of the krishna god let alone the chaitanya saint, so lets write a bunch of books only our cult followers look to in support of some fringe ideas we're proposing...

This is a pattern. The same explanations are given for why Saraswati gave himself sanyasi Diksha from a picture of his dead guru. No scriptural support, just made-up stuff from a guy who was already so self-righteous it hurts.

In due time all this stuff will become very self-evident. I speak out about it so bluntly because many who question it are afraid to do so "just in case". There is no just in case guys. This stuff is through and through nonsense. Nothing about it adds up. Just arrogant self-absorbed religious fanatics doing their thing. Everyone else just follows along and nods out of a similar self-righteous arrogance. No thinking. just a mindset of virtue signaling and parroting rhetoric, little to no actual personal realizations.

There is a reason that "Prabhupada said" became a meme of sorts. Devotees walk around just spewing the swamis words with little thought as to what he was saying. I'd like to see some black disciples of Bhaktivedanta justify his words about black people. Or women give a lecture explaining what Prabhupada meant about "women are less intelligent and enjoy being expertly raped". I'd like to see a lecture of guna theory and how that played out in ashrams across the world where kids were getting abused during "brahma mahurta" hour (never mind karma and how devotees naively equate it with newtons law). I'd like to hear the explanation of what guna affects most every sanyasi businessman guru. I'd like to hear what grand guna theory covers the cost of Ninjai and Vaishnava dasis cheesy music videos. Is that passion. goodness or, as I have always said, plain old ignorance is bliss.

That is my guna theory: Ignorance is bliss. and they gobble it up. In an attempt to demonize rational thought and stoic contentment with life, they paint fairytales as the goal of life. Pure ignorance peddled as absolute truth! What irony.

And finally, for shits and giggles, check out these guys trying to make heads and tales of the "unbroken chain" crap these cults peddle: [www.indiadivine.org]

Ironically they cannot, as there is nothing to make sense of, no standard and no method of so-called transmission of knowledge. It is broken. so so very broken it makes you want to go for a run.

Run Forest Run, you are truly educated in this area. It is really good as you can debate about it.
I truly believed absolutely everything when I was chanting. And unfortunately my faith was based in the internal feelings mixed with the mystical.
Now that I am outisde looking in, I feel so sorry for those who are being used.
We can say whatever we want about the philosophy. But it was not designed to become a sweatshop and karma factory.
Same way that christianity was not meant to turn into the whole vatican politics or pedo priests.
butler has basically turned these people into his personal servants.
Why must devotees work 8 hours. Then come home and get behind the computer to make money for them for free?
Oh. The excuse is no idol time. Keep the mind busy. But please pay them. Even 5 dollars an hour.
And many disciples (such as our center leader) follow in his footsteps at times and abuse other devotees.
I am deeply disturbed by the way these gurus are manipulating others. I know how hypnotized they are.
I feel as though I am watching some kind of child or human trafficking but noone can do anything about it.
Yes the mindlessness of the devotees is nauseating. Prahbupada said this and that.
I am allergic to that word.
I was watching a few minutes of Vishwananda’s lecture. It makes me sick how they sit on that chair. Act all sweet, speak some words of wisdom and then go do disgusting things behind.
How can people of such low integrity have so many people fall at their feet?
I think that the path of bhakti is a just a program. Same as nuns who think they are married to jesus.
For the love of jesus, they too can go through many austerities. Much greater than devotees at times.
All religions and giving our legions to a deity has its rewards.
I personally think (from experience) that bhakti yoga offers the highest spiritual rewards when it comes to religions. Then again my experiences.
I know 1000000 percent that we have not been given any absolute truths. And that we have just been given pieces of the puzzle.
The devotees say that krishna is the only way out. And christians say if you do not turn to Jesus, goodbye RAPTURE!
Who cares if your deity is Allah. Rubbish and waste of time. Accept jesus in your heart or else… Turn to him here and now.
As though it is as easy as ordering a drink at the bar. I cannot beleive one would so casually ask you yo accept a deity into your heart.
Then you have some who think the galactic federation will come to the rescue.
In the past 8 years as I went as deep as possible, I realized that devotees are swimming in a pond verus an ocean.
Their wisdom is so limited and they want everybody to think like them.
This reality is a very complex and fascinating puzzle and there are so many tools for growth. So many different teachers and theories.
Earth itself offers many spititual tools. Shamanism for exemple is an amazing tool too. There are so many unseen spirits and teachers that we can relate too.
Our personal growth is infinite within this life.
Bhakti yoga growth is mostly based on how attached you get to krishna and guru. How low you feel and act. They want you to be a Hatidas or Jesus.
Final destination is PURE devotee. Then again whatever the heck pure devotee means.
No religion encourages self discovery as well as becoming a lucid player in this game.
They just want to lock you in one program so that you never go to deep or away.
You will focus on a specific story: be it koran, bible, gita…
This way you will be asleep and unaware of how this reality works. That we are given clues even in movies.
I must stop feeling sorry or bad for the abused and used devotees. I know that they are mostly happy in their slavery and misery.
This is where they are at. It just makes me sad that they do not know anything better. Nothing to compare to.
I just watched a woman on youtube who was sexually abused by her dad till 10 or so. She always thought that this is how it was in all families.
Then she realized it was not the norm and put a stop to it.
These poor souls will never understand what has happened to them. That it could have been much sweeter.
Why did they have to suffer because of the mental disorders of another person and think it is normal. All the masks, gloves, parasite cleanses, vaccines, tests…
This has nothing to do with spirituality and Krishna Consc. It is a disgrace.
May ignornace be their bliss.
I think that a sincere, fear free relation with divinity is a positive thing.
No matter who that deity is. The 24/7 worship is just off the charts.
Iskcon and SoI have really twisted it around and turned it into a bootcamp, mental hospital, narcissists’ heaven…
They do not seem to care whatsoever about corruption, the horrible reputation.
I feel they are all protected by illusion and denial.
By the way, I have seen people mostly change for the better. But not always hundred percent.
And the very bad cases (more demonic) destroy many while they are going through the exorcism. A process that can take 40 years.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was watching a few minutes of Vishwananda’s
> lecture. It makes me sick how they sit on that
> chair. Act all sweet, speak some words of wisdom
> and then go do disgusting things behind.

The highest form of devotion was when the semiconscious Shoko Asahar was placed in a chair by one of his disciples in a public lecture. Poor desperate disciple tried to move the chair, guru's head flew in all directions. Devotion, followed by a complete lack of empathy and fear due to the risk that such jerky movements could tear the guru's head off. SIF is similar - with this kitchen and 25 cooks. In the name of the ideal, with great effort, they produce food worse than in a Chinese restaurant ("Candala food" is implicitly spiritual)

> Our personal growth is infinite within this life.
> Bhakti yoga growth is mostly based on how attached
> you get to krishna and guru.

That is SoI version. With absolutely vulnerable etc. Why then Babajis say about 99.99% time of meditation...

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The bliss that is experienced in most of these
> groups is by virtue of the activities being
> pleasant. If you ever see footage of a war torn
> village in Africa and the villagers are in a
> circle singing and making food and helping each
> other repair from war or some ebola or whatever,
> it is very clear that they are "happy", even
> blissful in such endeavors. Basically, we are
> wired to get an emotional and chemical kick out of
> service and activities like singing, dancing and
> eating food we made together.

Drunkards singing together. Here we combine the concept of congregational chanting with intoxication at once. If eaten with cucumbers, there is also food. Vegetarian.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I must stop feeling sorry or bad for the abused
> and used devotees. I know that they are mostly
> happy in their slavery and misery.

That's incredible but they keep their faith.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2022 07:24PM by Culthusiast.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth Wins,
>
> I have written about the spiritual addiction
> component in these groups many times. I am aware
> of the "bliss" affect ...

Really appreciate the way you describe what goes on within so many devotees internal world and communities. So many fire points here.

Especially I'll echo the "pastoral romanticism" mood, the late 60s hippie mood, the clinging to the 'good ol days' or just clinging to the feeling of bliss which can arise from other similar material activities that involve community, music, dancing, food, and an element of surrending to the moment/ecstaty/something divine.

This "sentimentalism" is both criticized AND central to the practice. Ironic but very common to psychologically project in this way.

Zooming out of an ISKCON-centric view of Vaisnavism, I think there's really something to the 'cult-like' description of worship of Radha-Krishna, that gets increasingly esoteric, exotic, and only appropriate for a certain caste with a certain lifestyle in some regions of India.

Indology academics have explored it a bit -- check out the work of Hugh Urban. keywords: bauls, asampradaya, sahajiya. Because it gets rather romantic, erotic, and into manjari-bhava, it's no wonder that a mass-market adaptation waters it down into an almost Indianized Christianity. Attend every once in a while for a Sunday feast, and grab your beads if you need to calm down your mind and material miseries. Otherwise, *ehhhhh*

Yup. That's basically the bottom line.

Read this mind-numbing sampling of what religious fanaticism does to the mind.

[www.indiadivine.org]

These guys are sitting around claiming authority over myths, dreams, visions, faith, opinions and interpretations. Nothing "absolute" about it. Completely subjective from the ground up by any standard of measure. Well, any rational standard.

What's ironic is that, as you state above, Fohr, there is a type of cognitive dissonance at play where the tension is created by this high-ideal neo-erotic love fest with divinity but then pulling back, not getting too close and at times even avoiding it.

This goes on at all levels in the cult. I recall once being chastised by my guru's wife because I said "Mata, will you guys be coming up to the temple later?". She had issue that I referred to her and the guru as "you guys". Yet, the general mood of closeness and closeness and intimate rapport was encouraged by the guru and his wife in dealing with me or my closer personal servant god-brothers and sisters. There is forever a walking-on-eggshells mentality of "razor's edge" rhetoric. It is painful to watch. Then out of seeming exasperation devotees are allowed to "bliss out" and lose themselves in kirtan/dance/song/food for a few minutes, then it's back to the mental grind/discipline. No wonder the kirtan feels sweet and fun—the rest of the time you are bashing your mind and self-image into the ground and performing all manner of austerity and ritualistic rigor (often pointless stuff).

The sad part to me is the level of conviction these stalwart preachers had. They were sold so wholesale on this stuff that it bordered a type of neurotic psychosis. What followers label "pure devotion" or whatever. But the fact is they were generally intelligent and thoughtful people. I mean they were essentially born and raised in these traditions, so that part was a no-brainer. It's not like Bhakktisiddhanta ever practiced Islam or some other faith and all of a sudden found Gaudiya to be the sweet spot. By the time the guy was a college student his father was well into it all.

I'm all for spiritual practice, but seeing as this is a thread about Butler and his cult, I'm trying to draw out the psychology behind it all as a mechanism of manufactured emotional frenzy.

If it interests anyone, I've posted this site here before, but there is much to be appreciated here in ripping through the BS that much of this cult peddle: [variedessays.blogspot.com]

Anyway, always interesting dissecting this stuff. In undoing much of the hard-wiring that goes on in these groups, I often marvel at the depth of lunacy I willingly gobbled up. I was very young, but as soon as my own mind came online, I was like, "holy shit, I'm talking to myself and pretending I am talking to some blue god somewhere out there!". I was like, that can't be normal, natural or healthy by any stretch.

Anyway, I prefer to forge forward in life in honest self-discovery, reflection and personal realization based on my authentic sense and feeling and experience rather than stuff planted in my brain by others, regardless of how profound it may sound at times. That is their realizations, conclusions and ideas—not mine.

Thanks, everyone for not smashing my approach as some sort of demonic iconoclasm. I am sincere in my own journey, but I cannot address much of my healing from this cult without asserting what it was that boggled my mind and did not result in anything profound, but rather destructive and unnecessary. I sacrificed many personal ambitions, friendships, relationships and personal realizations at the altar of these gurus and gods. And nothing transformed or took place that can ever relate to being a transcendent experience. It was fun at times, but it was also very cumbersome and roundabout way to achieve peace and access rational states of contentment and happiness.

I'm gonna run now.

Fohr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Indology academics have explored it a bit -- check
> out the work of Hugh Urban. keywords: bauls,
> asampradaya, sahajiya. Because it gets rather
> romantic, erotic, and into manjari-bhava, it's no
> wonder that a mass-market adaptation waters it
> down into an almost Indianized Christianity.
> Attend every once in a while for a Sunday feast,
> and grab your beads if you need to calm down your
> mind and material miseries. Otherwise, *ehhhhh*


In general, Gaudiya theology states that people's emotions, sentiments, are "saguna" - influenced by the 3 modes of material nature. The living essential, of the tatastha-shakti category, having realized that he is impersonal Brahman, is "nirguna". In matter, under the influence of Maha-maya, in the spiritual world - diversified - under the influence of Yoga-Maya. This is what theology is, no matter who thinks it or what your attitude is.

The hypothetical internal realization of "manjari-bhav" would be private realization. Externalizing it, gossiping about it, getting emotional would still be in the "saguna" category - material - since it is the subject of "sharing, informing".

Sahajiya is an attempt to transfer the hypothetical phenomena of transcendental psychology to temporal psychology. Reflection, projection, etc. This is what the theory says.

Today, when I look at Chris Butler's video kirtans, they are for me male sentimentality directed to the hypothetical male Gopal. This is how I see it.

But of course i could not have eyes and ears to perceive it. Then what for to listen to it...

Muslims here had a brake on - from the beginning - no images of God. And it is understandable ...

Anyway - the path to truth is individual ...

And the next and last point is - in Gaudiya even rythm of clapping hands has special pattern. No americana rockstars and sentiments. Sweeties. Clap your hands as guru says...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2022 07:47PM by Culthusiast.

And sex? Sex availability? In Poland it is $ 25. What's more, for the poor, working girls have a more affordable price list. 15, 30, 45 minutes. And after the problem ...

There is no need to go to India or join a sect.

The homeless have an allowance and they can also have sex. And at the main station, even for a bottle of beer.