Reading my previous post, I realize that I am being too convoluted and not addressing the specific point involved.

rrmoderator and others believe that Jeff Seidel's (along with Aish and Chabad) behavior is deceptive and harmful because he (they) has a hidden agenda of getting non-observant Jews to turn into Jews who practice Judaism in the same manner that he (they) practice it.
The contention is stated that those who are deceived into practicing this lifestyle are also subjected to brainwashing techniques that make them do things they would not normally do (marriages; modes of dress; religious observances; estrangement from family; etcetera).

My contention is that this is untrue and that this is a projection of a belief system that denigrates, for a variety of reasons, those who practice Torah observant Judaism.
I contend that there is no deception involved and no coercion of any kind.

You are contending that there is deception because You [u:05e9480c19]Believe[/u:05e9480c19]:
That Jeff Seidel et al have a hidden agenda with an clearly defined and deceptive end goal of recruiting unsuspecting Jews to become Orthodox.
You are projecting your particular beliefs about cults and their behavior onto these actions.
You do not believe that Jeff Seidel et al are obligated by their particular beliefs to invite Jews to an observant Jewish home for a Shabbos meal - period.
You do not believe that there is an a priori understanding under most circumstances of human interaction. You believe that all people ought to be warned of what a particular person's motivations and beliefs are, before a person engages in activities with another person.
It would follow then that you believe that if a politically Liberal neighbor who has "Impeach Bush" signs on his front yard, invites a politically Conservative neighbor who supports President Bush over to a backyard barbecue to discuss politics, that the politically Liberal neighbor should first fully disclose that he wants to convince the politically Conservative neighbor to Impeach Bush.
You believe that full disclosure of all beliefs is required before human interaction takes place.
This is not normal.

You believe that Jeff Seidel et al is preaching a particular "interpretation of Judaism, i.e. European ultra-Orthodox and/or Hasidic Judaism" and not disclosing his motives for doing so.

Your interpretation of Judaism and its various denominations does not appear to be well founded in history or practice.
"European ultra-Orthodox" Judaism is a pejorative label. I know of no denomination of Judaism that believes such a thing exists.
Combining this with "Hasidic Judaism," implies that you believe that these things are similar and that Seidel; Chabad; and Aish all hold the same beliefs regarding Torah observant Judaism.
This is untrue and there are many other divisions of Torah observant Judaism. Most of them including various groups that originally came from Europe; Chasidim; and a rather large group called Sephardi, all hold varying beliefs and traditions that other Torah observant Jews do not accept.
This is one reason that "Orthodox" Jews tend to call themselves Torah observant Jews as opposed to Jews who do not observe the Torah.
I do not know whether you find that division: Torah observant and non-observant, accurate or useful.
Your particular labels are not accurate, nor useful, when discussing motivations or Jewish beliefs and practices.

My point is, that you are claiming that Jeff Seidel, et al, should be explaining to every Jew they invite for Shabbos all of the above information, plus everything else I have written, before they invite a Jew for a Shabbos meal.
That's ridiculous.
I know, based on personal experience and the public statements and stories of literally thousands upon thousands of Jews, which I can document and verify, that one of the purposes of inviting a fellow Jew to a Shabbos meal is to be able to spend that period of time with that person explaining everything similar to what I have written, plus a lot more on what it means to be a Torah observant Jew. That is the clearly stated and defined goal of inviting someone over for a Shabbos meal.
It is not possible for someone handing out flyers at random inviting people to a Shabbos meal to stop and explain to each and every person the Laws and practices of Judaism
YOUR belief that there ought to be an end game statement that the whole point is to "convert" this person to what you believe is Orthodox Judaism, is based on your erroneous beliefs of what being a Torah observant Jew means and, that this is this is, indeed, the point.
It is not.
There is no coercion or deception involved.
And, you have been unable to provide any data that says that coercion or deception is involved.

Ahh,,, And again, I ramble... Okay. I'm done.

Moishe3rd:

Many Jewish families have been hurt by Jeff Seidel, Aish and Chabad as previously explained.

Admittedly, as you say, Seidel, Aish and Chabad are actually only successful with a relatively "tiny" number of those they approach, but this doesn't diminish the pain and suffering of those Jewish families they have affected.

Thank you for repeatedly admitting here the real agenda of the so-called "Shabbos dinners."

Rather than being a friendly free meal for fellow Jews, you admit,

Quote

one of the purposes of inviting a fellow Jew to a Shabbos meal is to be able to spend that period of time with that person explaining everything similar to what I have written, plus a lot more on what it means to be a Torah observant Jew. That is the clearly stated and defined goal of inviting someone over for a Shabbos meal.

Then you attempt to apologize away the deceptive invitation offered for dinner by saying,

Quote

It is not possible for someone handing out flyers at random inviting people to a Shabbos meal to stop and explain to each and every person the Laws and practices of Judaism

The bottom line is Seidel doesn't think the few people that are taken in by the deceptive dinner invitation would show up if they knew his real agenda. That's why he doesn't add the information on the flyer, i.e. that the dinner is part of a religious outreach program to teach Orthodox Judaism.

And yes, when approaching Jewish young people from American families overwhelmingly from other Jewish denominations there should be some respect for those families and their religious values and choices.

Your attempt to label millions of Jews commited to a religious life outside of the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox communities as not "observant" is "pejorative" and demonstrates the disregard and disrespect you and others have that support recruitment efforts run by people like Seidel Chabad and Aish.

I have been receiving complaints about ultra-Orthodox recruitment efforts that target young people from other Jewish denominations for more than 20 years.

I will not share the specifics of the confidential information given to me by affected families on this message board.

Suffice it to say that your admissions are enough for anyone reading this thread to see the problem and the motivation behind so-called "Jewish outreach" efforts.

Thanks for that.

Sadly, like many groups called "cults" many within the ultra-Orthodox communities are intolerant of any other frame of reference, which even includes other Jews that don't share their theology.

Instead of admitting there are different expressions of Judaism that provide meaningful choices for Jews, you insist that your form of Judaism, is "true Torah Judaism" and that's it.

Note: Anyone interested in the problems posed by some ultra-Orthodox groups both in the United States and Israel should refer to the following archives.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And [www.culteducation.com]

And also [www.culteducation.com]

There are many articles that are quite informative within these subsections to review from both American and Israeli publications. These reports discuss some of the factions, distinctions and disagreements within the ultra-Orthodox communities, e.g. the Lubavichers that believe Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, was the "messiah."

Oy.
I should have waited. Sorry...
What the heck. I am here...

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rrmoderator
Thanks Yasmin.
....
Having said that, you can see from Moishe3rd's posts that he exhibits a mindset intolerant of other beliefs and essentially ethnocentric, even when it comes to Jews from other denominations (e.g. Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist congreagations).

Perhaps it is like "shouting into the proverbial well" to expect someone like Moishe3rd to respect Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist Jews, recognizing that all Jews have a right to practice Judaism within the parameters of their own denominations.


Apparently whenever anyone disagrees with him Moishe3rd believes that is the equivalent of disagreeing with God, the Torah and constitutes "a denigraation of the beliefs of Orthodox Jews.

For Moishe3rd the world is sharply divided into black and white.

There are "Torah observant Jews" and "the non-Torah observant Jewish world."

This type of mindset doesn't allow for Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews to exist as legitimate Jewish religious denominations.

Okay, rrmoderator, perhaps you could simply answer a few simple questions. Maybe. Although, thus far you have not.
You are attributing motives and beliefs to me that I do not hold.
If the denominations you mention, or any others are, indeed, "Torah observant" and my differentiation is an unfair mindset, could you please, please explain to me why? How? What am I getting wrong here about "Torah observance?"
I believe your credentials, therefore, I know that you must have a full knowledge of the history and practices of Judaism.
Could you please explain to me how being "Torah observant" and "non-observant" are prejudicial misnomers? Specifically? What specific practices or traditions or rituals or whatever make the denominations you mentioned "Torah observant?"

Quote

This is why people like Moishe3rd support "Jewish Outeach," as a means of converting what they see as "sinful" Jews to what they considers the only way to be a religious Jew.

Your projection, not mine. As a matter of fact, I do not consider, nor do most people I know, non-observant Jews as "sinful." As a matter of fact, the Torah forbids that kind of unwarranted projection

Quote

What apparently upsets many ultra-Orthodox Jews is the success of modern Judaism, i.e. the most recent development of Jewish denominations that offers another choice for Jews to practice their faith, at least outside Israel.

Mmm.... "the success of modern Judaism." And how are you defining "success?"

Quote

All ultra-Orthodox Hasidic sects combined actually represent a relatively small number of Jews. Whereas the Reform and Conservative synagogue movements are larger.

The Orthodox Union, which is a large denomination of Jews in the US, is also smaller than the Conservative and Reform movements.

In Israel, a Jewish state, the affiliation rate of Jews is actually lower than in the United States.

Actually, you are being generous here. Less than 50% of Jews consider themselves "religious" in any manner whatsoever. And, less than 15% of all Jews consider themselves "Torah observant."
One other random statistic is that there are approximately 15 million Jews on the planet which is less than .002% of the world's population.
It would appear, based on those figures, that no denomination of Judaism has ever been "successful."
Your belief in the motives of Torah observant Jews is inaccurate.
The purpose, as it has been for the last three thousand years, is to keep the Jewish population statistics from reaching Zero.
I gather that you find that motive unworthy, divisive and deceptive.

Quote

The relatively recent efforts by ultra-Orthodox groups like the Chabad and Aish to target young people from other Jewish denominations can be seen as a tacit admission of failure.

That is, their failure to match the growth of other denominations, even with a much higher birthrate.

Yes, the Jewish world has been waiting for the antiquated Torah observant Jews to disappear since the "Jewish Enlightenment" in Europe in the late 1700's. It is puzzling to many why Torah observant Judaism continues to grow and flourish.

Quote

Proselytizing young people on vacation in Israel, going after schoolchildren through various programs, has become their apparent response to the successful growth and expansion of modern American Judaism.

Please understand that Judaism has always changed and evolved, and this perhaps explains its ability to survive through thousands of years as one of the world's oldest relgions.

European Hasidic Judaism, with its "black hats" and "Yiddishkite," is only one expression of this fact.

What people like Moishe3rd seem to fear, is the ability of Jews to change and choose something other than their expression of Judaism.

Ahh... finally, we agree.
Yes, I believe that it is a tragedy when Jews change and choose something other than their expression of Judaism.
There are very few Jews in the world. And the world has not traditionally been encouraging of their religious practices. As a matter of fact, they have tended towards the extreme of wiping out Jews. There are still hundreds of millions of people who believe this might be a good thing.
It is distressing to see the majority of Jews abandoning Judaism because of my own, sentimental, religious, and historical reasons. I don't like it.
Most offshoots of Judaism have had a very poor rate of survival and continuity. It remains to be seen if the denominations you are espousing as simply being different aspects of Judaism can, indeed, maintain.

Quote

And what has become apparent through his posts here is that he has little respect for Jewish families that wish to affiliate with denominations he doesn't like and refuses to recognize as a legitimate practice of Judaism.

Again, you are projecting my lack of respect for what I consider largely ignorance onto real, living Jews.
This is, again, incorrect and projection on your part.
I have no problem with people doing whatever it is they do.
I do not respect the values of most of what is considered "Popular culture."
That does not imply or proclaim that I am disrespectful or that I disdain individual people who are caught up in the values of the world of Popular culture, even if they disparage those who do not believe as they do.
It means that I wish they had better values and that, it might be possible to help them understand that better values would have a more positive, healthful effect on their respective lives.

Moishe3rd:

I am not going to break the rules of this board and engage in a theological debate with you regarding the merits of Hasidic Judaism as opposed to Reform, Conservative, Orthodox and/or Reconstructionist.

You may have come here to preach, but that is not the purpose of this board.

Instead, the issue is behavior and specifically this thread is about the behavior of so-called "Jewish Outreach" groups.

You say,

Quote

I do not consider, nor do most people I know, non-observant Jews as "sinful."

However, one of the labels frequently used by the "Jewish Outreach" movement to describe its recruits is "bal teshuvah," i.e. a repentant Jew who has returned to "true Torah Judaism."

This perjorative label implicitly means that whatever form of Judaism the new recruit was once a part of (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist) was not authentic, wrong and therefore "sinful," i.e. the need for repentance.

FYI--No we don't agree. I accept the validity of other expressions of Judaism and oppose proselytizing other Jews, i.e. recruiting Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox Hasidic Jews to change religious affiliation to another Jewish denomination (e.g. Reform or Conservative).

You really don't agree with that principle, which is that each expression of Judaism is valid and has a right to exist and not be labeled negatively.

"Jewish outreach" as practiced by Aish, Chabad and Seidel is disrespectful and intolerant of other Jewish denominations. The agenda is often to recruit Reform and Conservative Jewish young people into ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups.

Quote
rrmoderator
Moishe3rd:

I am not going to break the rules of this board and engage in a theological debate with you regarding the merits of Hasidic Judaism as opposed to Reform, Conservative, Orthodox and/or Reconstructionist.

You may have come here to preach, but that is not the purpose of this board.

Instead, the issue is behavior and specifically this thread is about the behavior of so-called "Jewish Outreach" groups.

You say,

Quote

I do not consider, nor do most people I know, non-observant Jews as "sinful."

However, one of the labels frequently used by the "Jewish Outreach" movement to describe its recruits is "bal teshuvah," i.e. a repentant Jew who has returned to "true Torah Judaism."

This perjorative label implicitly means that whatever form of Judaism the new recruit was once a part of (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist) was not authentic, wrong and therefore "sinful," i.e. the need for repentance.

Not "repentant" and not "sinful."
Returning is correct.

Moishe3rd:

You are attempting to parse your language to avoid admitting the purpose and underlying objectives of "Jewish outreach."

"Returning"?

Returning to what?

The many Jewish families that have contacted me over the years complaining about Aish, Chabad and Seidel overwhelmingly belong to a synagogue. Their kids went to religious school, learned Hebrew, had a Bat or Bar Mitzvah and were confirmed.

Nevetheless, despite their Jewish affiliation, education, practice and family background they were targeted for recruitment.

Your word "returning" implies that they were somehow absent as Jews. That is, that they needed to "return," when in fact they never left Judaism and were most often already affiliated with a synagogue and from a practicing Jewish family.

Again, you reveal that you don't recognize the right of other Jewish denominations to exist as legitimate expressions of Judaism.

You see your theology as the only theology acceptable and therefore young people already affiliated with other synagogues that don't conform to your theology need to be recruited.

Pretty sad and intolerant outlook on the greater Jewish community.

Quote
rrmoderator
Moishe3rd:

You are attempting to parse your language to avoid admitting the purpose and underlying objectives of "Jewish outreach."

"Returning"?

Returning to what?

G-d. Torah. And Mitzvos (Commandments).
This is a constant and consistent theme that runs throughout the entire Torah and Tanach (what most call the "old testament"). Many of the books of the Prophets are written specifically on the theme of teshuva - Return.
There is a specific Sabbath each year called Shabbos Shuva (T'shuva); the Shabbos of Return. The main theme of Rosh Hoshana and Yom Kippur, two of the major Jewish Holy Days, is for all Jews to do teshuva; to return. It is a ubiquitous theme throughout all of Judaism.

According to the Torah, G-d calls all Jews to return to His Torah and to observe His mitzvos.
This would include "ultra" Orthodox Jews; Orthodox Jews; Conservative Jews; Reform Jews; "Reconstructionist" Jews; secular Jews; and Jews who do not even know that they are Jewish.
All Jews.
Any Jew who heeds this particular call, no matter who; and no matter what their level of observance is, is called a "bal teshuva." A returning Jew. It is a Jewish ritual practice to commit oneself to this action everyday. It is considered, by all Jews, of all denominations, an imperative on Yom Kippur.
A Jew who decided to refrain from eating pork because he is a Jew, and did absolutely nothing else, would be considered a bal teshuva.
A Jew who wandered into a Reform synagogue just to be more in touch with his Judaism would be considered a bal teshuva by members of the Reform congregation.
A Jew who started attending Sabbath services every week and began learning Talmud in a Conservative synagogue would be considered a bal teshuva.
A Jew who decided to dedicate their lives to trying to practice the mitzvos of the Torah but never talked to another "Orthodox" Jew in their life, would be considered a bal teshuva.

Return. To G-d. Torah. And Mitzvos.

Quote

The many Jewish families that have contacted me over the years complaining about Aish, Chabad and Seidel overwhelmingly belong to a synagogue. Their kids went to religious school, learned Hebrew, had a Bat or Bar Mitzvah and were confirmed.

Nevetheless, despite their Jewish affiliation, education, practice and family background they were targeted for recruitment.

Your word "returning" implies that they were somehow absent as Jews. That is, that they needed to "return," when in fact they never left Judaism and were most often already affiliated with a synagogue and from a practicing Jewish family.

No, you are implying that.
I am implying that all Jews are called upon to learn Torah and keep G-d's mitzvos - to the best of their ability. Apparently, you disagree that this is an essential component of the Jewish religion.

Quote

Again, you reveal that you don't recognize the right of other Jewish denominations to exist as legitimate expressions of Judaism.

You see your theology as the only theology acceptable and therefore young people already affiliated with other synagogues that don't conform to your theology need to be recruited.

Pretty sad and intolerant outlook on the greater Jewish community

I actually find other denominations of Judaism quite useful for the reasons mentioned previously. My personal goal is to not see Jews dwindle to Zero. Many Jews, such as myself, often can only begin with very tentative inquiries into Judaism. Reform and Conservative practices are, very obviously in your book, non-threatening arenas in which to explore Judaism.
I see nothing wrong with inviting totally non-observant Jews to try and practice something, such as Reform or Conservative Judaism, even if I think it is less interesting that being "Orthodox."
I attended a Conservative synagogue for many years. As time went by, I was gradually put off by the inconsistency; the laissez-faire attitude; and the unwillingness of either the rabbi, the congregants, or both, to decide, for themselves, any definitive Jewish practices that they believed were what was required by Judaism.
Nonetheless, we should all be baalei teshuva, no matter what our particular beliefs are.

Moishe3rd:

The term "bal teshuvah" is used by Aish and Chabad to specifically describe Jews that have become Orthodox or more typically ultra-Orthodox. This includes Jews that have left Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist synagogues to join Orthodox groups and synagogues.

See the following links:

[www.amazon.com]

[yalepress.yale.edu]

[www.gush-etzion.org.il]

Again you are attempting to parse your language to talk around this point.

You say,

Quote

A Jew who wandered into a Reform synagogue just to be more in touch with his Judaism would be considered a bal teshuva by members of the Reform congregation.

Considered "bal teshuva" by the Reform Congregation?

This would not be a label used to typically describe a "bal teshuva" amongst Orthodox Jews.

You then say,

Quote

Many Jews, such as myself, often can only begin with very tentative inquiries into Judaism. Reform and Conservative practices are, very obviously in your book, non-threatening arenas in which to explore Judaism.

"Begin with very tenative inquiries into Judaism"?

Then you say,

Quote

I attended a Conservative synagogue for many years. As time went by, I was gradually put off by the inconsistency; the laissez-faire attitude; and the unwillingness of either the rabbi, the congregants, or both, to decide, for themselves, any definitive Jewish practices that they believed were what was required by Judaism.

Aish, Chabad and Jeff Seidel would agree with your observations. They also believe that to be a true "bal teshuvah" a Jew might "begin" with Reform or Conservative Judaism, but ultimately should be engaged in "definitive Jewsh practices...required by Judaism," i.e. Orthodox or Hasidic ultra-Orthodox.

Anything else would likely be denigrated by Aish and Chabad as a "lassez-faiare attitude" and/or "tentative."

The rest of your post often reads like a sermon.

Again, preaching is prohibited per the rules you agreed to before commenting here.

Frankly though, it's hard to take you seriously.

Previously on another thread you argued that a group reported as a "cult" was really "useful."

You also admitted on the same thread that you were a former member of the group and defended it.

See [board.culteducation.com]

You said:

Quote

I can still look back on my days with Sharon and Alex and Bob and Fred and all of the other folk I knew and loved, and remember how useful it was. Hey - I got to go to Israel before the 1st Intifada and visit West Berlin and East Berlin and Amsterdam and Europe! All expenses paid too. That alone was worth the price of admission. But, there was much more and most of it was good. I would strongly suggest that those who are still "suffering" from their experiences with Sharon or Alex attempt to remember what was good and discard all the dross. And, get on with Life. It's much too short to make a cult out of hating Sharon or Alex. Be well...

However, you also admitted that the leader slapped you and that the group was violent.

See [board.culteducation.com]

Quote

Admittedly, Alex did once slap me during a football game in Montana and scream at me "I'm not your father!" That was interesting. Useful, at the time also. And, Sharon did once slap my wife (of 28 years now) for being rather hateful. It seemed appropriate at the time. Other than that, I believe I got in three fistfights - all based on the idea that we were supposed to punch each other out in order to further our "goals" or whatever that was called...[My wife and I] both appreciate the things we learned in School.

When others on the thread exposed the glaring contradictions within your remarks and refuted your conclusions you attempted to dismiss everything as if it was some sort of joke.

Quote

Oy vey izmir... Or, in the immortal words of someone or other - no shit Jackson! Ladies and Gents, I humbly apologize for my previous decent impressions of Sharon et al... Thees peoples are nuts! Damn!
Indeed, my old friends do seem to have gone off the deep end into the uncharted waters of stupid ass insanity. My humble apologies.
I was just reminiscing here but now I be gone and will bother you no more wid my silly memories. Damn!...

But the group in question led by Sharon Gans is not a joke and has hurt many people.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Zei gezunt (Be well), but how about going to troll somewhere else?

See [curezone.com]

Quote

An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums.

Your rambling has become redundant and I have better things to do than go on and on with an Internet troll.

I apologize.
I was under the impression that we were having a discussion.
I was attempting to clarify my point of view.
Evidently, I failed.
Be well.

Moishe3rd:

What view?

You have essentially been trolling around the board.

Yes you did fail.