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Re: International Enlightenment Fellowship/Andrew Cohen
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 13, 2009 10:32AM

[americanguru.net]


[beyondgrowth.net]

comments following article

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2009 10:53AM by corboy.

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Re: International Enlightenment Fellowship/Andrew Cohen
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 22, 2009 01:47AM

An analysis of Cohen and his Defenders using Lifton's Criteria

[rebloggingbradwarner.blogspot.com]

Associations between Cohen, Wilber and BMtm

[rebloggingbradwarner.blogspot.com]

(And, no, you naughty children, in this context, BM does not mean 'bowel movement'!)

Now, stop giggling. The author gives us a helpful tip as to the pain in the ass jargon (Liftons cultic criteria calls it 'loading the language') that is used by the Wilberians--which include not only Wilber, but also Andrew Cohen and other teachers associating with this crowd.

Quote

The last paragraph talks a lot about "the horizontal" and "the vertical" which is Wilberspeak for cult leaders and students.

You see, being on the horizontal plane is when you are peers.

Verticality=respect for the teacher.

But ....."horizontal" systems don't keep the students on the hook for money long enough....

And this is before you get into the First Tier Second Tier, and all the damned colors indicating your level of attainment--defined of course by the ever shifting whims and neurotic needs of the Integralista Fascista leaders.

Anyone who calls a leader on his or (rarely) her bullshit is by definition 'projecting his or her shadow' onto the leader.

Of course, there is no provision made for any chance that a leader might have unresolved neurosis and be quite capable of counter transferance--as when a powerholder projects his or her personal hang ups onto an underling.

A clear tip off that you are in cult world is that Management are, by definition, more evolved and never would project their shadows onto underlings because by being evolved, they no longer have any shadow to project.

Of course, we the unevolved, know this is ridiculous.

Imagine saying, "I am going to walk outside and my anus is going to remain
at home."

But when someone claims they are so spiritually or evolutionarily evolved that they no longer have shadows, and are no longer capable of projecting personal hang ups onto underlings--thats as outrageous a claim as saying you can take a walk without your asshole coming with you.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2009 02:04AM by corboy.

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Re: International Enlightenment Fellowship/Andrew Cohen
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 24, 2009 10:54PM

KW and Cohen have had such a longstanding business relationship (vide The Guru and the Pandit' dialogues in Cohens magazine What Is Enlightenment, now changed to EnlightenNext that it seems worth including a reflection or two on KW.

From an old entry on Dash A Day in the Integral Life later printed in Integral World

Quote

The Wilber Effect?, Anonymous Response to Scott ParkerJun 14, 2007 ... True
[www.integralworld.net] - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

Quote

The Wilber Effect?

I received an Anonymous comment on my last blog post regarding Scott Parker's excellent essay Winning the Integral Game? which is posted on Integral World.

This comment struck a cord with me and has me reflecting a lot on my experiences with Ken Wilber and his work. I have more to say soon, especially regarding where I was in my life when I got into Wilber's work. (Oddly enough I can answer "yes" to every question the Anon poster asks regarding when people got into Wilber's work. Very interesting indeed.) More later as I continue to reflect...

Comment from Anon:

Dash wrote:

(I was once a giddy fan of Wilber myself and when I took the first Integral theory course I was very excited to be able to actually ask Wilber a question on a conference call. Being drunk with integral, as Matt Dallman puts it, is a very powerful thing.)

It is very interesting that so many persons describe their early encounter with Wilberian Integralism as if it were an intoxicant--they use terms like 'giddy' 'drunk' 'fired up'

Scott Parker also mentions something else--the sense of superiority he felt.

Years ago, I read something by a person who wrote that science fiction, at least that from certain authors, can have a mood altering effect.

Its worth asking whether Wilber's material, or at least some of his more famous books have a mood altering effect.

Wilber may not consciously intend to write mood enhancing, intoxicating material, but some books, written by persons with powerful unconscious agendas, may have a fascinating impact, because the authors, pressued by unconscious material, insert all kinds of unconscious derivatives that speak powerfully and subliminally to readers who unknowingly have issues similar to the issues that unconsciously drove the author's act of creation--and drive that author's public career.

A text of this kind is like a waking dream, with conscious and unconscious material that set up a vibe.

The fascination produced by such a text comes because it speaks to something unconscious in us. But a text of this kind can tease us but it cannot wake us up.

Once we wake up, the text remains interesting but loses its fascination factor.

The process of science and philosophy requires a state of mind that is alert and interested but not in this state of intoxicated, enthralled fascination.

***One reason why the language of academia is so calm and mannered is to ensure that people stay awake and lucid and AVOID the kind of verbal intoxciation that is incompatible with creating science and philosophy.

I remember getting very interested by General Systems Theory when in graduate school. It gave me a comprehensive understanding of things. But I dont recall feeling that my appreciation for GTS made me superior to those who preferred other frameworks. It was a tool that fit my hand. A carpenter doenst think he or she is superior because a particular tool works best.

In grad school we discussed the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) in very great detail, and other models of psychological development. But never at any time did the instructors encourage us to get 'fired up' or go into states of partisan loyalty concerning this material.

The instructors were appeciative and interested, but they did not act like 'fans' and never encouraged us to act that way.

I learned that science is a matter of interest, comraderie and good craftsmanship, but never included animosity, fan mentality or the slightist hint of elitism.

A sense of intoxication and a feeling of mastery, a feeling of belonging, shared with others who believe in 'The System', an urge to proslytize, a sense of superiority in relation to those who dont share one's beliefs that The System is salvation:

all this is characteristic of conversion to a mass movement, rather than the emotions felt by scientists or philosophers who are pleased to have found a helpful new set of tools.

Dash and Scott describe the deep discomfort they both felt when they eventually came to question Wilberism and feared the loss of the comfort they'd gained from the Wilberian material.

It might be helpful for those who feel puzzled why they became drawn to, even fascinated by Wilberian material to do the following:

Be a detective and look carefully and curiously at what your life was like and what your state of mind and emotion were in just before and at the time you got fascinated with the Wilber material.

Were you in a painful state of depression or anxiety? Were you isolated, with people who didnt quite share your aspirations? Were you overwhelmed by the complexity of information taught at the university level and desperately seeking mastery?

(I remember that one very painful thing in either the freshman year or first year of graduate school is finding yourself surrounded for the first time by persons as intelligent as yourself and suddenly fearing you may not have what it takes--a painful state of mind, and one where one becomes desperate to regain some kind of stability--ASAP.)

In such a state of mind, where we crave stablity, long for a sense of mastery, Wilberian material, which may, through its author's search for mastery, may contain unconscious derivatives that trigger a sense of mastery in those readers most yearning to feel that way.

IMO, power and mastery, and suppression of vulnerability may be unconscious but very important elements in Wilber's life and that he has unconsciously created writings which evoke feelings of power, mastery and supression of vulnerabilty, makign them appealing to anyone who wishs to feel that way--and that means these will appeal to a lot of people.

There may be an unintegrated strand of youthfulness in Wilber, what Jung termed 'Puer Aeternus' that may also make Ken and his output unconsciously intoxicating to young persons, especially those who are full of fire and who fear that traditional religoius and academic communities are forcing them to stifle their fiery, angry energy.
They may be attracted to Ken because he has created a social scene where you get to have your cake and eat it too--feel spiritual and highly developed, yet have permission to blast off and use foul, abusive language and claim that only inferior persons would be offended.

It may be that part of the pain of questioning Wilber's system is losign that sense of verbally induced certainty/mastery, losing that verbally induced feeling of power and instead, returning to a state of emotional vulnerablity that you were in before encoutnering the Wilber material--and that the mood enhancing nature of the Wiilber material temporarily suppressed that vulnerabilty.

Finally, (personal hunch) there seems to be something about Wilber's public personality and the narrative he has crafted and gives to the public about his own life that may be a part of the fascination.

Hard Core Wilberians have become just as invested in Wilber's version of his life story and in Wilber's personality as they are in his system. In this, he resembles Carlos Castaneda, another person who wrote intoxicating material with elements filched from academic sources then used in an anti-scientific manner.

No other scientific concept or philosophy has required that we get invested in the personality of the scientist or philosopher in question.

Wilber has not been content to create a body of writing. He has also encouraged and created an entire social scene around himself, not just an intellectual system--via the internet.

No scientific theory or philosophy that has academic recognition has ever required that we belong to a social scene.

But that social scene may be part of the appeal---it gives a sense of belonging, and that can be very hard to give up. But one loses kinship to the Wilber tribe as soon as one dares to become adult and autonomous in relation to his system and its social taboos.

IMO, Wilber's actual fascination is not with ideas or spirituality but with power.

He may also have some kind of unconscious fascination with power and distaste for human vulnerablity.

For it is very interesting that, despite his avid interest in science, Ken Wilber never made use of the findings of social psychologists such as Stanley Milgram (Obedience to Authority experiment) or Philip Zimbardo (The Stanford Prison Experiment) in his own study of cult leaders.

Wilber only seems interested in science when he can appropriate elements from it to support his fantasy of personal development into an invulnerable super-person, impervious to temptation.

What may make social psychology useless for Wilberian purposes is that findings from social psychology demonstrate that no matter how intelligent we are, we remain vulernable to social influence and can be corrupted by power imbalance. Even Stanford University students regressed into ghastly cruelty and abject submission to cruelty, when isolated (Zimbardo's Prison Experiment)

Wilber seems unable to see the relevance of Zimbardo's findings to his own work,despite having partipated in a seminar with Zimbardo in the 1980s, material from which was published in the book, 'Spiritual Choices, The Problem of Recognizing AUthentic Paths to Inner Transformation', edited by Dick Anthony, Bruce EckerKen Wilber, Paragon House, 1987. (Dr Zimbardo is listed on page 27 in footnote #9 a footnote as one of the participants.)

Yet depsite his being listed in that one footnote as a seminar participant, Philip Zimbardo's Prison Experiment findings were never discussed in the book--a very puzzling omission, for the purpose of that seminar was to assemble a team of top experts to discuss and find ways to distinguish between helpful tranformative new religious movements and potentially hazardous new religious movements.

Its as if one were to discuss Brothers Karamazov and omit any mention of hating one's father.

By contrast, a conscious and alert scientist not in thrall to an unconscious personal agenda would see the relevance of Zimbardo's findings and discuss them.

My hunch is that Wilber and possibly the other two editors could not face the relevance of Zimbardo's work because the outcome of the Prison Experiment findings demonstrated that even intelligent educated students, were vulnerable to social isolation, power imbalance and human vulnerability.

The Prison Experiment is probably painfully subversive for anyone who cherishes dreams of a grand system and set of spiritual exercises that would supposedly create super-evolved color coded persons who would be impervious to temptation.

Zimbardo's Prison
Experiment warns that Ken's hopes of becoming highly evolved, superhuman and invulnerable are a dead end dream, and that his grand project of beocoming an invulnerable human being is futile--sad news, indeed.

I suspect that because Wilber remains mostly unconscious, his work, though fascinating and cognitively stimulating, may keep his fans unconscious in relation to their own power issues because Wilber remains unconscous about his own power issues. And this may affect why Wilber keeps associating with teachers who reportedly have had difficulty using power responsibly. (eg Andrew Cohen)


IMO, Ken Wilber has loyalists because he has found a way to write about science and philosophy in a way that makes people get high and hopeful and then get addicted to him because he has made them feel good.

True science and philosophy cannot be practiced when one is clnging to hope, inspiration--one can only create true science and philosophy by NOT being in the state of mind that Wilber and his followers prize

To get a taste, and much more than 'one taste' concerning KW read these.

[www.kenwilber.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2009 11:00PM by corboy.

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Re: International Enlightenment Fellowship/Andrew Cohen
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 24, 2009 11:34PM

[whatenlightenment.blogspot.com]

Scroll down to the comments posted December 21 or 22d, regarding paucity of balanced dialog on guru.net


Let us again quote Historian Norman Cantor

Quote

Fourteenth century people lacked the moral catagories that could transcend traditional political and social roles. They lacked a critical value system that judged rulers by consequences and not the formal catagories in which their behavior was structured.

In the Wake of the Plague: The Black Death and the World It Made, page 39

I think it is possible that this discussion, formerly on Zaadz and now transferred to Gaia may illustrate what happens when people 'lack a critical value system that judges rulers by the consequences (of their actions) and instead revert to the medieval habit of seeing behavior in terms of formal catagories--in this case, Wilbers formal catatories of First Tier, Third Tier, Second Tier, complete with color coding*, meaning that a person who is at the lower First Tier of development is incapable of fully understanding or passing judgement on the behavior of a superior person who has reached higher development at the Second or Third Tiers.

Must mention that some years back, a discussion entitled 'Theres something about Andrew' on the old Zaadz venue (now Gaia)became lengthy, lively with a range of viewpoints.

It shows what happens when people try to discuss all this WITHIN the framework provided by Wilber/Cohen/Coombs. Its a good intro the to loaded language* one must adopt in order to be a member of this particular subtribe of Integralista.

[groups.gaia.com]

Here the peasants are, doubting their ability to judge the actions (face slapping) of someone higher up in the Wilberian hierarchy.

Funnily enough, in medieval times, the right to wear certain colors was often governed by sumptuary law.

Cantor wrote:

There were plenty of passages in the biblical prophets and Gospels, to condemn the Plantagenet's savage behavior, and there were a few churchmen at the margins painfully aware of this. But the magnates of the Church, the pope, cardinals, bishops, and abbots--were too enmeshed in the prevailing political and social nexus to assess critically the behavior of the English crown. Themselves from the aristocracy or gentry, they accepted current society and its values.'
Cantor, Ibid, page 39.

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Re: International Enlightenment Fellowship/Andrew Cohen
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 28, 2009 11:08PM

Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber--early descriptions

Here is Tarlos description of a conversation with her son which may have taken place item in 1987:

"Andrew regarded me as an intellectual mesmerized by 'concepts' that cut me off from my true Self. My mind was my enemy, he claimed. I didnt disagree. I mentioned to him that I'd glanced at Up From Eden and he told me not to read further in the book because it was intellectually stimulating.'

(UFE is by Ken Wilber-C)

of Luna Tarlos book, The Mother of God, page 121

But, Later in the 1980s, early 1990s when the AC sangha was in Larkspur, California, Andre van der Braak wrote in his memoir, Enlightenment Blues:

Quote

"John brings in the coffee and the talk continues about Ken Wilber, a well known author in spiritual circles.

"When Andrew stayed for the month in my Amsterdam apartment*, he had seen my bookcase stocked with Ken Wilber books, since I had done my psychology thesis on him. Andrew had picked up one of them, and had been very impressed.

"Since that time, Andrew has been eager to get him as a student, and we brainstorm about how we can pull him in. We speculate about why he hasnt been wiling to meet with Andrew. Is he afraid of ego death?

'Wait until he reads your book' I say. "He will be haunted by the absoluteness of your teachings'.

Andrew likes that.

Enlightenment Blues, page 66-67

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Re: International Enlightenment Fellowship/Andrew Cohen
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 31, 2009 12:40AM

Discussion continuing in comments section following this article.

[whatenlightenment.blogspot.com]

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Re: International Enlightenment Fellowship/Andrew Cohen
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 04, 2010 12:32AM

Additional dimensions.

Andrew Cohen has an avid interest in music and has a band with the name
'Unfulfilled Desires'---a rather interesting selection for one who has reportedly and repeatedly claimed complete enlightenment.

Anyone who wants to do a long term study of the social context created by Andrew will have to examine the musical connections.

home page

[www.unfulfilleddesires.com]

blogs

[www.unfulfilleddesires.com]

band members

[www.unfulfilleddesires.com]

Quote

No, this is certainly not your grandmother’s Zen. And this is not The Power of Now. Stillness and silence are the ground, not the goal—and “the now” is only powerful in its potential to shape the future. This is mysticism for the real world, and it’s anything but escapist.

As Andrew has often half-jokingly said, “You can rest when you’re dead.” (Though ever since he began considering the evolutionary implications of reincarnation, he adds, “And maybe not even then.”)

So it’s only natural that in addition to being a teacher of enlightenment and spiritual development, Andrew leads a rockin’ jazz-funk-fusion band, and some of us occasionally venture away from the steady stream of work to see them play. Called Unfulfilled Desires, they recently blew the socks off Albany club-goers

Notes from the Revolution
News and views from students of Andrew Cohen

[74.125.93.132]

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Re: International Enlightenment Fellowship/Andrew Cohen
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 05, 2010 02:06AM

A correspondant on the What Enlightenment blogspot site noted this about AC:

Quote

Dozens of footmen whose greatest pleasure is to serve him in every way, from providing his refreshments to carrying his bags, editing his books and magazine, doing his secretarial work, running his organization, even setting up his drums before his band’s concert gigs.

The young Elvis Presley, in a simple shirt and plain trousers, picked up his own guitar, put the strap around his neck with his own hands.

At the very end of his career, after becoming 'King' it was different.

Elvis stood there, in a gaudy costume. A pair of acolytes would then step forward. The acolytes slung the guitar strap around Elvis' neck, placed the instrument in front of him, into his hands.

There Elvis was, after years of adulation. He no longer reached out and picked up his own guitar, the instrument that had given so much back to him.

In a memoir entitled Growing Up Dead Peter Conners mentioned that when he was learning about music and hanging out with teenagers with bands, band practice almost always took place at one kid's house--usually the drummer's house, but in practice, which ever house had space and was owned by parents willing to endure the noise.

[www.peterconners.com]

Why?

Because loading drums, transporting drums and then setting the drums up is such a very time consuming process that it eats up practice time if drums must be transported to a different practice space each time.

It was thus much simpler to keep them onsite at one person's house.

So it is asking a very great deal to have other people pack up, transport and set up drums for YOU--the bandleader.


Regarding having ones own band if one is a guru:

On the What Enlightement? website, one person wrote this following an article
from December of 2006:

[74.125.93.132]

Quote

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I was watching WIE on cable TV the other day – it is on once a week here, and I occasionally check in to watch for a bit, I must admit, essentially to see how fast I can find the manifest flaws or omissions in AC’s logic, that ultimately lead to the corruption that is so well documented on this blog. I did not have to watch for more than two minutes before he started explaining (and then repeating himself - as he often does - using slight different wording, ad nauseum!) that when one is finally able to allow the spiritual evolutionary process to begin and to shed the desires of the ego, one is by necessity, changed so that it would only be a deliberate, ego-driven choice to return to the Samsarac world of ego gratification and fear-avoidance that is antithetical to the collective evolutionary process. Therefore, if one does not make that deliberate ego-driven choice, one can’t help but be part of the progressive flow of evolution of the spirit.

"What he completely ignores is the fact that, because of the unique position he has attained - in serving his mission to deliver this and his other insights constantly to a presumably widening group of followers - he himself gains access to an extremely powerful, possibly irresistible world of ego gratification, such as:

• Almost total power over others,

• The complete adulation of hundreds of devoted followers, who hang on his every word, thought and deed,

• A seemingly unlimited revenue stream, provided at times by individuals willing to virtually bankrupt themselves for his benefit,

• Dozens of footmen whose greatest pleasure is to serve him in every way, from providing his refreshments to carrying his bags, editing his books and magazine, doing his secretarial work, running his organization, even setting up his drums before his band’s concert gigs.

• Absolute re-confirmation of his righteousness, brilliance, and charisma, at all times.

If usual day-to-day ego gratification can be likened to taking several cups of strong coffee per day, these ego rewards are on the level of constant crack smoking..."

and

Quote

Dior was a fashion guru and even sought to achieve a revolution. He knew how to work with the press, but Karnow found that Dior was essentially private--he cherished a circle of friends but needed solitude when creating new designs for a collection.

Saturday, 30 December, 2006
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Interesting Dior story, if for no other reason it got me thinking. I'm trying HARD to remember a single instance of Andrew expressing gratitude to another human being in the years I was around him. And I mean gratitude, not praise.

Gratitude seemed to flow unceasingly toward him but not much flowed out. This is an amazing reflection on not only Andrew but also me for not noticing it before.

Apparently, in this part of the Konsciousness Klub, being an enlightened guru means
never having to be grateful.

For a discussion of the difference between Gratitude vs Gratification, this essay is an eye opener.

[enlightenmentward.wordpress.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2010 02:24AM by corboy.

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Re: International Enlightenment Fellowship/Andrew Cohen
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 07, 2010 12:16AM

Discussion continuing following this article:
[whatenlightenment.blogspot.com]

One of the participants in the discussion over there responds to an earlier query.

(Corboy disclaimer) I am not tech savvy enough to state whether this is proof, but am just reporting this other persons suggestion in case it is a worthwhile research strategy that can be applied to other online situations.

Quote

Anonymous said...
On Jan 1, Ben Hausmann asked for proof that guru-talk.com is a "part of a concerted effort".

Here's simple-minded proof: open two browsers; point one to [www.guru-talk.com] and point the other to [www.guru-talk.com]

What you are looking at is a concerted effort by guru-talk.com to intercept search engine queries for "american guru" "william yenner" - look at the effort they went through by posting the exact same content but interspersing the term "american guru" everywhere they could and tagging articles with "William Yenner" when they seemingly have nothing to do with him. Kind of creepy, don't you think?

Tuesday, 05 January, 2010

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Re: International Enlightenment Fellowship/Andrew Cohen
Posted by: Christa ()
Date: January 23, 2010 08:53AM

Quote
corboy
Tuesday, 05 January, 2010
[/quote]
[SNIP]
Quote

Anonymous said...
On Jan 1, Ben Hausmann asked for proof that guru-talk.com is a "part of a concerted effort".

Here's simple-minded proof: open two browsers; point one to [www.guru-talk.com] and point the other to [www.guru-talk.com]

What you are looking at is a concerted effort by guru-talk.com to intercept search engine queries for "american guru" "william yenner" - look at the effort they went through by posting the exact same content but interspersing the term "american guru" everywhere they could and tagging articles with "William Yenner" when they seemingly have
nothing to do with him. Kind of creepy, don't you think?

Tuesday, 05 January, 2010
[/quote]

This is indeed an attempt to manipulate PageRank and screw up people's searches. It's partially worked, too; depending of the search terms you enter, the guru-talk site sometimes appears above Yenner's site in search results, but fortunately not above all Yenner search results.

A quick whois.com search shows that Elytra Design, whose administrative contact is Andrea Hurley, owns the guru-talk site. According to Ms. Hurley's biography on Gaia:

"Hello! My name is Andrea Hurley, and I have been a student of Spiritual Teacher, Andrew Cohen since 1988, and currently help to manage the EnlightenNext Center in Cambridge.

I first met Andrew Cohen in 1988, when he taught in the US for the first time. I was so impacted by his teaching that I shifted the gears of my life, and moved to California with my 1 year old daughter and husband to spend the next eight years with Andrew and his international body of students – it was the beginning of our continued journey together to understand the human condition and learn to live beyond ego, which is an ever engaging and outrageously positive endeavor, and an ultimate human responsibility. Returning to the east coast in 1995, and joining forces with about 2 dozon others, we created the Boston Center for EnlightenNext. We had a vision which lives on today – to bring a wave of enlightened revolutionary spirit to this great city! With that vision, and a tremendous degree of good will, we transformed a windowless warehouse of cement walls to the beautiful center that we have today, where we host seminars and courses (including the Evolutionary Enlightenment Course which I am co-teaching!)"

To really see how blatant the rip-off of Yenner's site is, try this experiment: open 2 browsers and click:

[americanguru.net]
[www.guru-talk.com]

If you use tabs, both of your tabs will say "American Guru". The one for "guru-talk" does not say "Guru Talk". Among other signs of manipulation, the stack of tags on guru-talk is 4 inches thick.

Ms. Hurley's endeavor "to live beyond ego... and bring a wave of revolutionary spirit" hasn't yet taken her beyond the use of sneaky, underhanded, low-rent SEO tricks.

Google frowns on Hurley's kind of sleazy manipulation of PageRank and penalizes sites that think the can get away with it. I hope Bill Yenner will contact them directly, if he hasn't already.

Really, Hurley has scraped the bottom of the barrel here. When she or Cohen come here and complain, or go directly to Rick Ross, bear in mind that all of the info I've put here is public record. It is meant to be seen and evaluated. Sleazebags like Cohen and Hurley just hope no one will look. Oops!

(Although Cohen strikes me as the kind of guru who would use a troll attack: "I've never studied with Andrew, and I'm not the sort of person who's much of a joiner, but a friend of mine took me to a talk with him and he was one of the kindest, most intelligent men I've ever met. You haters on this board really should worry more about keeping your own houses in order than demeaning a truly wonderful enlightened person as Andrew Cohen is.

What's wrong with you people, anyway? Why aren't you spending your time on the real problems in this world? Because mind-fucking people for money and status, destroying their autonomy, deceiving them into living your life instead of their own, giving them easy answers to the biggest questions humans can ask, physically and mentally abusing them, and using them as extensions of your own ego isn't a real problem.")


This is some of the sleaziest behavior I've ever seen. Companies like Enron and Worldcom would have recoiled from doing what Andrea Hurley and Elytra Design have done to Bill Yenner. It's truly disgusting. What enlightenment, indeed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 09:18AM by Christa.

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