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The Anticult
The FMS idea was created by people I consider to be offenders.

Goodness. You consider Elizabeth Loftus and Margaret Singer to be offenders? Seriously?

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The Anticult
But now it is used by every criminal out there.

Of course, and it's a horrible consequence of the unreliability of recovered memories, but this doesn't make recovered memories forensically reliable.

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The Anticult
Its way overblown.

Dunno' It was quite an extremely widespread fad in psychotherapy for quite awhile to help people who were "obviously abused as a child" to "recover those memories of abuse" so they could "heal and also confront their abusers".

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The Anticult
Most judges can sort through that stuff, and get a picture of what's really going on.

Come now. How can a judge determine whether or not a memory is confabulated? Cross-examination can't work, because the memory would be "real" to the alleged victim. And if was just the word of the alleged victim against the word of the accused, the victim's statements could not be objectively either validated or invalidated by the judge. Ignorant of the power of confabulated memories both judges and juries have tended to believe the alleged victims, thinking that no one would lie about such horrible things, especially when the accused is a family member.

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The Anticult
The "false convictions" are much rarer, probably 100-1, than the guilty getting away with it.

That still doesn't make recovered memories forensically reliable. A 1-in-100 "false positive" rate is exceptionally high and would exclude absolutely any forensic tool one could imagine from being accepted in court. For example, if fingerprinting had a 1-in-100 false positive rate, then fingerprints would be inadmissible in court even if it meant that 99-in-100 criminals would escape punishment.

I have children. I want to lock up the pedophiles and throw away the key as much as you do. But that doesn't make recovered memories forensically reliable.

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Rama Das (slave name)
Maybee the recovered memories are flawed, but would it not stand to reason that they could be at least fairly acurate,

Yes, a particular recovered memory *could* be accurate, but without other evidence there is no way of telling whether it is accurate or not.

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Rama Das (slave name)
and if there are so many corroborating similar experiences that this is very loudly pointing to this possibly going on?

That would depend on how the corroboration is obtained, e.g. [www.religioustolerance.org] . If "untainted" corroboration is obtained then certainly it should be investigated.

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Rama Das (slave name)
If the recovered memories are just taken for what they are, this person recovering lost memories of trauma, they do not in and of themselves need to be considered evidence, but at least a very good reason to pay attention.

I agree that it might be considered a reason to investigate, just as the unreliable and inadmissible lie-detector test is used by police to help them know which direction to go in an investigation.

I am not going to contribute any more to this thread, its too complex a discussion for that.

I have NEVER said so-called "repressed memories" are forensically reliable! That is insane. No sane person would ever claim that.
People can't remember the color of a truck from a hit and run yesterday.

Did I mention Singer and the others? No, I am talking about the couple I mentioned, and how the FMSF began. Of course there are "false memories" but its NOT an epidemic, like the sex offenders lawyers want everyone to think.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a conviction for child sex abuse these days, when there are no witnesses, and no evidence?
No longer is a therapists notes good enough.
And the reality is that a cross-examination can reveal all sorts of patterns, and lies, and cover-ups. They also interview others, look at medical records. Judges are generally not idiots, and they look for small clues and inconsistencies, and over a 2 week trial, can often see what is going on.

Are there false convictions? Yes.
Are there criminals walking free? Yes.

Of course human memory is HORRIBLE, and memories are distorted.
But just looks at the facts.
Look at the court records.
Every childhood sex offender is claiming FMS these days, its a joke.

My view is the problem is far less with false convictions with false memories, than criminals being let off the hook by claiming FMS.
Look at all the priests claiming FMS for their victims.

Its up to judges to sort through this stuff, and its very difficult.
What the offenders lawyers have done is take some bad examples, and tried to make them into a FMS epidemic.
The reality is that getting a conviction for child sex abuse for decades before, is not easy.

Anyway, I am out of this thread.
Its just way too complex, and its up to the legal system anyway.
But the real problem is the offender lawyers using FMS as a weapon against their victims. That I have seen time and time again.

If anyone ever ends up in a court, with an associate as a victim from decades past, and you see the FMS used as a[b:014c2f9bf8] lie by the defence [/b:014c2f9bf8]to try to destroy a person, then you might see the other side of it. The extreme abuse of the FMS concept.

As far as the FMSF, that place is crawling with offenders, and from what I have seen, they assume EVERYONE is FMS, no matter the charge.
They are no better than those who say, "if you think you were abused, then you were".
Only very rare cases are full "recovered memories". Most are only very partially "remembered".

This subject has been deliberately distorted by the lawyers and advocates for the child sex offenders, and many people have bought into the lies.

I'm gone...

Thanks a lot for your input, Anticult, I appreciate it.

I have no doubt this woman has been abused, it certainly may have contributed to the many years she has spent in psychiatric care.

Yes, she does have a psychiatrist. Not that that would be grounds to refute what a person says wholesale.

I don't think she was in a Satanic cult or a victim of [b:a44cfc9834]satanic[/b:a44cfc9834] abuse though. All research into SRA has proved it to be non-existent. [www.religioustolerance.org]

This lady mentions on an open forum based in her home town, and using her own pic as an avatar, that she was in this cult. If she really had been she wouldn't indulge in such 'attention seeking behaviour' which I think is just that.

I've heard that some political leaders are involved in the Bilderberg group
[en.wikipedia.org] and that this might be some sort of Satanic Illuminati group, run by reptilian humanoids
:) But I don't recall any more of the argument to go into more detail than that.

Love
Kath

congratulations on knowing everything

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The Anticult
I am not going to contribute any more to this thread, its too complex a discussion for that..

Yes, it's very complex.

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The Anticult
I have NEVER said so-called "repressed memories" are forensically reliable! That is insane. No sane person would ever claim that.
People can't remember the color of a truck from a hit and run yesterday.

Good, I think that we agree then that repressed memories cannot be used to determine whether an accused is a pedophile or not.

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The Anticult
Did I mention Singer and the others? No, I am talking about the couple I mentioned, and how the FMSF began.

Thanks for the clarification. Your original statement was quite a sweeping generalization, so your intent wasn't clear. the FMS *concept* was not created by pedophiles, however. It was created and promoted by respectable psychologists one of them being a foremost light in the anti-cult movement. Whether or not the *FMSF* was founded by a pedophile has *absolutely* no bearing on the validity of the *FMS* theory. It is a "red herring" argument regarding the validity of FMS itself.

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The Anticult
Of course there are "false memories" but its NOT an epidemic, like the sex offenders lawyers want everyone to think.

Enough of one so that, as you seem to agree, it cannot be used to determine whether a person is a pedophile or not.

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The Anticult
Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a conviction for child sex abuse these days, when there are no witnesses, and no evidence?
No longer is a therapists notes good enough.

An effect of the demonstrated unreliability of recovered memories.

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The Anticult
And the reality is that a cross-examination can reveal all sorts of patterns, and lies, and cover-ups.

Not when there are *no* lies and coverups. A victim with recovered memories is absolutely not lying or covering anything up. They absolutely believe what they are testifying to.

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The Anticult
They also interview others, look at medical records. Judges are generally not idiots, and they look for small clues and inconsistencies, and over a 2 week trial, can often see what is going on.

"Often" isn't good enough. Again, the judge has absolutely no way to tell if a memory is confabulated or not when it is the "victim's" word against the accused's, as is often the case. If there is other evidence supporting the "victim's" claims, then that other evidence should be considered of course. But in the absence of other evidence, the judge just can't determine whether a recovered memory is accurate or not.

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The Anticult
Are there false convictions? Yes.
Are there criminals walking free? Yes.

Yes, as with any other crime

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The Anticult
Of course human memory is HORRIBLE, and memories are distorted.

Much more so at the hands of well-meaning "memory recovering" therapists.

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The Anticult
But just looks at the facts.
Look at the court records.
Every childhood sex offender is claiming FMS these days, its a joke.

I believe that we have agreed that recovered memories are forensicaly unreliable. That means that in the absence of other evidence, a recovered memory is not enough for a conviction.

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The Anticult
My view is the problem is far less with false convictions with false memories, than criminals being let off the hook by claiming FMS.
Look at all the priests claiming FMS for their victims.

But we have agreed that recovered memories are forensically unreliable.

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The Anticult
Its up to judges to sort through this stuff, and its very difficult.

It's literally impossible in the absence of other evidence.

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The Anticult
What the offenders lawyers have done is take some bad examples, and tried to make them into a FMS epidemic.
The reality is that getting a conviction for child sex abuse for decades before, is not easy.

It's almost impossible in the absence of other evidence, because as we have agreed recovered memories are not forensically reliable.

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The Anticult
Anyway, I am out of this thread.
Its just way too complex, and its up to the legal system anyway.
But the real problem is the offender lawyers using FMS as a weapon against their victims. That I have seen time and time again.

If recovered memories are forensically unreliable, how did you yourself determine the guilt of the accused time and time again?

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The Anticult
If anyone ever ends up in a court, with an associate as a victim from decades past, and you see the FMS used as a[b:64e2138798] lie by the defence [/b:64e2138798]to try to destroy a person, then you might see the other side of it. The extreme abuse of the FMS concept.

But we have agreed that recovered memories are forensically unreliable.

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The Anticult
As far as the FMSF, that place is crawling with offenders, and from what I have seen, they assume EVERYONE is FMS, no matter the charge.
They are no better than those who say, "if you think you were abused, then you were".
Only very rare cases are full "recovered memories". Most are only very partially "remembered".

None of which has a bearing on the truth or falsity of the FMS theory.

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The Anticult
This subject has been deliberately distorted by the lawyers and advocates for the child sex offenders, and many people have bought into the lies.

No lies have been demonstrated as regards the FMS theory itself.

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Rama Das (slave name)
congratulations on knowing everything

Wow, in the absence of counter-arguments we are resorting to flaming. Kath was simply expressing her opinions, as the people arguing against FMS here have certainly felt free to do.

Ok, I will admit that I only really followed Rama in because I enjoy intelligent conversation and I felt certain that he would show me the way.

If I may try to contribute something...

In the initial question Kath said :

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It's also dubious in that she was not guarded about discussing it, she mentioned it within a few times of chatting to me on msn, even though she had to 'change her name to escape.'

Firstly of all she was only chatting to you on MSN and it is common knowledge that the internet is a medium for generally uninhibited conversation.

Secondly I am a victim of child sexual abuse and I have told this to a lot of people. It is a increasingly antiquated and I believe dangerous and perpetually abusive notion that this is something that should not be discussed.

Certainly there are all sorts of reactions that one is likely to receive in response. People may feel that you are looking for sympathy or attention, they may perceive you as being vulgar and want nothing more to do with you, they may react with skepticism or blame - "there must be something that you could have done so it didn't go on for so long"
It is according to the accounts of many survivors and my own experience something that stays with you in a lot of ways, regardless of what 'help' you are able to obtain and no matter how determined you are to get on with life. Why should it be something which people are ashamed to talk about? Keeping secrets is just allowing the abusers to maintain control of your life and practicing being ashamed of something for which you as an innocent child exploited by the lowest form of life on the planet are not to blame.

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kath
I don't think she was in a Satanic cult or a victim of [b:85e4502489]satanic[/b:85e4502489] abuse though. All research into SRA has proved it to be non-existent. [www.religioustolerance.org]

This lady mentions on an open forum based in her home town, and using her own pic as an avatar, that she was in this cult. If she really had been she wouldn't indulge in such 'attention seeking behaviour' which I think is just that.

religioustolerance.org is a pro cult organisation in the same vein as CAN now is.

Again that she does this, I am not sure how you know the pic is actually her but let's assume 100% that it is I don't see anything the least bit deserving of criticism that she does not live in secrecy and fear.

Surely there are a lot of motives contributing to people falsely alledging abuse, even without malicious intent, and it is a very complicated issue.

There is a book I read a few years ago called "Breaking the Silence" by Liz Mullinar that includes a chapter on ritual abuse which theorises that elements of ritual are introduced as a safeguard by the abusers that their victims will not be believed.

Children are at an extreme disadvantage in the legal system, with the vast majority of reported cases of child abuse, as with rape, not resulting in a conviction. It is the most common defence that children cannot tell the difference between reality and fantasy. Precisely why anyone would fantasise about horrific humilating trauma has never really been accounted for.

In considering false memory syndrome and conspiracies perhaps the following which is indicative of a tendency to 'cover up' is worth considering before rushing to dismiss the occurrence of ritual abuse...

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Threats and violence against professionals: In one study, 30% of professionals working in the field of ritual abuse reported various forms of intimidation and threats, including abusive phone calls (Youngson 1994). This is consistent with the harassment and threats experienced by police officers when investigating organised child exploitation (Ferraro, Casey et al. 2005).

In 1994, the majority of clinicians responding to an editorial call for papers on ritual abuse stated that they were too frightened to speak in print about their ritually abused clients. Some referred to threats of violence against themselves and their families, the appearance of dead cats on doorsteps and burning crosses on their lawns (deMause 1994: 507).

Sustained stalking and threats against one New Zealand therapist dealing with ritually abused clients culminated in an attack that left her with severe brain damage (S.H. 1998).

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Joe K

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Rama Das (slave name)
congratulations on knowing everything

Wow, in the absence of counter-arguments we are resorting to flaming. Kath was simply expressing her opinions, as the people arguing against FMS here have certainly felt free to do.

Well in perspective we have the person who started the whole thread casting very unempathetic and quite odious judgments on how people who have been sexually abused should act.