Ok...my husband has informed me that I'm spending WAAYYY to much time on this. I even started to call and interview people..LOL but he wants me to stop or I can forget about some Christmas ideas I wanted to do. My friends think I should stop (Trinity and non Trinity) before it becomes an obssession to me like it was to others.

I'm stopping. Everyone has their own opinion. Everyone has their own secrets and everyone has their own ideas on how they see things.

I'm going to do what I believe that I haven't been doing.

Forgive...pick up the cross...and rest in the Lord.

Goodbye.

See ya later.

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cherenuff1
Ok...my husband has informed me that I'm spending WAAYYY to much time on this. I even started to call and interview people..LOL but he wants me to stop or I can forget about some Christmas ideas I wanted to do. My friends think I should stop (Trinity and non Trinity) before it becomes an obssession to me like it was to others.

I'm stopping. Everyone has their own opinion. Everyone has their own secrets and everyone has their own ideas on how they see things.

I'm going to do what I believe that I haven't been doing.

Forgive...pick up the cross...and rest in the Lord.

Goodbye.

Actually, you said some things in your long post earlier that I wanted to respond to, but I have been busy at work this morning. I will respond to them when I have time.

I realize that this can get tedious, and, believe me, I have plenty of other things to do in my life besides post on this board, but I don't think you get to just say your peice and then just wrap yourself up in the mantle of religiosity and say, in essence, "Well, I'm too spiritual for all this now." You have said some things on this board that are misleading, and I will try to set the record straight when I have time.

By the way, congratulations to you for quitting smoking. I know that is a difficult thing to do, and I give you kudos for it.

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cherenuff1
Ok...my husband has informed me that I'm spending WAAYYY to much time on this. I even started to call and interview people..LOL but he wants me to stop or I can forget about some Christmas ideas I wanted to do. My friends think I should stop (Trinity and non Trinity) before it becomes an obssession to me like it was to others.

I'm stopping. Everyone has their own opinion. Everyone has their own secrets and everyone has their own ideas on how they see things.

I'm going to do what I believe that I haven't been doing.

Forgive...pick up the cross...and rest in the Lord.

Goodbye.

"...It is finished, it is finished, it is finished..."

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Whats funny is that people are forgetting that I did indeed leave Trinity and was actually part of the original group of ex-members.

I think you are the main one who is forgetting that, cherenuff1. You keep saying you have been at Trinity for 15 years, but really it has been less time than that if you subtract the time you’ve been gone. That does not invalidate your experience, but I think we should all strive to be accurate on the facts, here.

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I sat with Pam, Larry, Powell and others and we had great fun putting down Trinity, putting you and Ole and the other elders down. You're forgetting that I...myself...called it a cult after P/L/P/S/T told me it was.

Those folks have little recollection of doing this with you. Could you be exaggerating your level of contact with these folks?

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I was angry...of course I would have agreed with them that it was a cult and to me back then at that particular time in my life, it was. I wanted it to be cult. I wanted to despise you and the elders and everyone else that I felt made my life miserable. The ex-members thought that my husband and I were treated extremely unfairly and when I went to meet with them or talk to them, we would do nothing but whine about our 'terrible' experiences there. I did bring up once that I felt perhaps that my actions (lying) was probably wrong but they said it didn't matter. They said I was 'JUSTIFIED" in my lies and that God forgave me. I remember that clearly.

This is your perception of those conversations. I wasn’t there, so I don’t know—I was still in the cult phase of my life at that time. I am back in pretty good contact with some of those people now, though, and I do not think their current position would be to justify lying. That is certainly not my position, and I have expressed to zeuszor that he was wrong to lie to Trinity while he was there.

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They said that I wouldn't have been kicked out of a regular church for my lying. That would be true, I suppose. But then again, I would never have confessed to lying at a regular church to begin with.

Depends on the church, I guess. Whether or not you would have suffered a consequence at another church, lying is not good. I’m glad you seem to be past that, now.

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Of course, my husband started to get pretty uncomfortable and said that I really need to not talk to them again. He felt that they were infecting me with their bitterness. So...we left for another state and the more that I was away from others that talked bad about Trinity the more I thought about it. They would say terrible things that make me cringe like "hopefully that a**hole (Ole) will die so that we can go back to Trinity". I won't go into what they called you..LOL.

Why do you say “LOL” about people saying mean things about me? That seems mean-spirited in and of itself. I realize people are angry when they first leave cults—the anger is a necessary part of the healing process—but it is not healthy to get stuck there. I think Wendy and I have worked through all of that. In spite of what some people have said about her book, it is not an angry book. It is a book of enlightenment and healing. We both certainly have better things to do than to spend the rest of our lives being angry with Trinity Foundation.

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Phrases like that and the ones about you turned my stomach.

I am sure there have been lots of ugly things said on both sides of this. After Wendy and I left some of the things said about us in the Buckner Bible study got back to us, and it was pretty ugly, too. In fact, it seems like the BBS turned into basically just a “Doug-and-Wendy-bashing-session” for quite awhile, there.

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I, at that point, just didn't care about Trinity or the ex-members and their talk. I just didn't want to have anything much to do with any of them.

But...being away and going to different churches for 4 years made me realize that the doctrine that Trinity preaches was what I believed in and it took me awhile to find that out so we went back to give Trinity another chance and to give ourselves another chance. Of course, that was when you and Wendy were exiting. I was somewhat fearful of you still at that time but when you left, I felt relieved a bit (sorry just being honest).

I have no doubt that while I was in my “cult personality” I was a jerk. I have apologized to you privately, and I now do so publicly. The things I said to people—especially on hot seats—was wrong. If anyone else that I have hurt is reading this, I will be happy to talk to you, meet with you, or do whatever else I need to do in order to make amends for my part of the horrible evil that I participated in.

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What shocked me coming back to the group was that they stopped the hotseats, Ole didn't teach night bible studies in fact his health went downhill and he is rarely around now, the people were all more mellow and I asked them why and what happened to the fervor they use to have. I was told..."its no longer necesarry. We tried it for a bit, didn't like it and moved on." And they have been like this for the last 7 years that you and Wendy have been gone.

Yes, but this is the “I’m not doing it now” defense. Trinity has not corporately repented of this spiritual crime. The latest word on this that I read was in Glenna’s article in the Observer, where she quotes Ole as saying, “I make no apologies for the hot seats.” If a man gets old and becomes impotent so that he finally quits molesting children but never repents or makes amends, is it enough for him to say, “I stopped doing that 7 (or 14, or 21) years ago?” What about all the people out there that he has damaged? Are they all just supposed to “get over it?”

And, that metaphor is not over the top. The hot seats were the spiritual rape of a bunch of spiritual children. In fact, I actually had a conversation with Ole before I left the group where I told him that I had come to believe the hot seats were a mistake. Now, of course, I think they were worse than a mistake—they were a sin.

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I truly hope that some of the ex-members can let go of their anger and I say this because I was there, kicked out, became an angry ex-member, lost my self pity, came back and will again be leaving (but for different reasons).

I agree that it is best for people to work through their anger and get beyond it. People would be helped in this process if Trinity would admit some responsibility.

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I know what others are feeling and even you have to admit that I probably had the Worst hotseats EVER. Worse than you or any of the ex-members. And I tell you now...it will NEVER happen to me again. But I needn't worry about that because they don't happen. Can I compare myself to them...I feel that I can since during my time there at first, I had it worse than most of them. In fact, alot of ex-members were the ones that gave me my WORSE hotseats (ironic...isn't it).

You do not know what I, or anyone else is feeling, and it is patronizing and condescending to say that you do. Everybody’s experience is uniquely their own. For that reason, it is wrong to rank or compare people’s hot seats, because how they experienced them internally is what really matters. From the outside, I saw several that looked just as bad as yours (including a couple of my own).

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Like I said...the difference between myself and those that Wendy interviewed is that I didn't lose God. I stopped pitying myself and blaming others for my misery. This is just my opinion and as honest as I can possibly be.

This is an unfair blanket generalization of the experience of dozens of people. Not all of them “lost God,” and I don’t think most of them are wallowing in self-pity. They have moved on with their lives, but, when asked, they will tell you that Trinity was a dark and regrettable experience for them.

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I understand your point. I understand Brian's point. I understand the ex-members. I just choose to let it go and be as honest about how Trinity is now that I can be.

I am not sure you do understand my point, or Wendy’s. I’ll let Brian speak for himself. You want to dismiss us as angry and self-pitying, but that is very far from the truth. I grant that you are being honest in expressing your opinion about the fact that Trinity has mellowed out now (I think they have just gotten old and tired), but I am being just as honest when I express my view that it does not seem that they have really tried to examine their own role in the psychological and spiritual damage of so many people, and admit and repent of the things they have done that are wrong.

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**whew**. I know that I'm not going to sway anyone's opinion and at this point...I guess I really don't care. If any of the ex-members want to apologize for what they did to ME, they can. Don't just blame Ole...that makes me mad. Some of them, including you Doug, did the hotseats with relish. Own up to that and realize that your actions are your own. NO ONE forced you or others. Just when it came time for your own hotseats did any of you gripe.

**Yes Doug...I know that you apologized but others did not and perhaps, I'm still a bit hurt and angry that I feel you and others blame your actions on someone else. Don't know..you're the psychologist.**

All of the former members whom I know have things that they regret about the Trinity experience, and I do agree that everyone is responsible for their own actions. But (and I do not say this to justify myself), there was a culture there that informed all of that. I may have eviscerated some people on the hot seat myself, and I was wrong to do that, but I was very much doing what I was trained to do. That does not make it right, but it is all stuff I would not have been doing in any other context. It was not what I was like before I got to Trinity, and it is not what I am like now.

By the way, I have a master’s degree and am credentialed as a Licensed Professional Counselor. You have to have a Ph.D. to be able to call yourself a Psychologist.
:wink:

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Hmm...I've been here for almost as long as you. BUT I've been here for the last seven years...You haven't. You also have NO idea what has happened nor what people are like in these last seven years. So...I won't give you names of people that may have been here for the last 3 years? 4 years? What?

Tell you what...I know people that were here and worked for the Magazine for 5 months before leaving...Will you take them?

Coupla things: You came quite awhile after I did, since I first came to Bible studies in 1977 and you didn't show up until the early 90s. And, it is ridiculous to say I have no idea what has happened since we left. I know people there and have been in communication with several people over the last few years, although I will admit that Trinity folks do seem to be talking to me less since the book came out.

You can give me the names of some people who have been part of the group in the last few years who can tell me that it has gotten nicer and it is not like it used to be, but what would be the point of that? I'll stipulate that the place is running out of gas, but that does not address the main point I am making, which is that Trinity has done a lot of damage to a lot of people over the years, and it has yet to honestly wrestle with what its own responsibility is in all of this.

Oh, and I guess that "30" figure you threw out earlier was a bit of an exaggeration, wasn't it?

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Well Zeuszor...from all your posts, I'm assuming that Counselor and the other ex-members never told you EVERYTHING and informed you of what was missing in the book. Ask them. What will it take for me to persuade you to realize the book is missing information?

Well, the book was not meant to be a compendium of everything that ever happened at Trinity Foundation. It was Wendy telling her story, and the points that related to it--that's all.

I have a question Doug. This is partly the heart of the issue. You have described the hot seats as spiritual rape. What was the nature of the damage done? You say that some former members do not believe in God after leaving TFI. That holds little weight though, as everyone should have a faith that is their own and not contingent on someone elses actions.
Did they become incapable of making basic decisions? Did they turn into shells who would not trust anyone? Was the potential for the 'victims' to become abusers planted?

It seems we all blitzed Marion after her inquiry. Hopefully she isn't afraid to post now. :lol:

hahaha

Nathan, could you contact me on my private address please?

I'd like to discuss one of your remarks regarding my question about Ole.

[b:f65a964e26][Moderator: Sorry you will have to wait until you have private messaging after 10 approved posts. Please don't post contact information here][/b:f65a964e26]

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NathanA
I have a question Doug. This is partly the heart of the issue. You have described the hot seats as spiritual rape. What was the nature of the damage done? You say that some former members do not believe in God after leaving TFI. That holds little weight though, as everyone should have a faith that is their own and not contingent on someone elses actions.
Did they become incapable of making basic decisions? Did they turn into shells who would not trust anyone? Was the potential for the 'victims' to become abusers planted?

It seems we all blitzed Marion after her inquiry. Hopefully she isn't afraid to post now. :lol:

People at times became incapable of making basic decisions. People's anxiety level increased. People suffered symptoms that indicate they possibly have PTSD--go back and reread Boanerges' post. Many former members had to seek psychotherapy upon leaving TFI, and some spent thousands of dollars on that process.


Nathan, there has been some debate among the members and the people posting on this board whether you are just trolling or if you are sincere in your questions. For my part, I want to believe you, so I will try to explain to you why you come across as so irritating to people. I hope that in doing so it will help you dialogue with others in a more constructive manner.

The problem comes from you making judgmental statements into your posts, like telling Boanerges you are skeptical about his experience. For the sake of argument, let's stipulate that Boanerges is telling the truth. If so, can you imagine the amount of vulnerability it took for him to write about that experience? Can you empathize what it would be like for him to then be told by someone who is acting as an apologist for his victimizer, "I am skeptical that this happened to you."?

I do not expect you to just accept everything we say, here. Chernuff1 says that my problem with you is that you are not agreeing with us, not seeing things our way. That is not true. You are free to disagree, but you come across as being very insensitive, completely oblivious to the fact that this material has profound emotional content to those of us who have lived through it.

Now, you have done it again. When you say, "That holds little weight though, as everyone should have a faith that is their own and not contingent on someone elses actions," you are again being emotionally insensitive to the experience of people who have had significant trauma. These are not just dry, intellectual questions to us, here. Can you imagine the level of trauma a believer would have to go through to make them want to pull away from God? Maybe they should not do that, but are you 100% certain the same thing could not happen to you? Are you 100% certain you have the right to judge people who have been through experiences you can only imagine?

I hope this is helpful. I, for one, would like to see you continue to be involved in this discussion, but I think it would be appropriate if your posts reflected the attitude that you claim for yourself, which is that of honest questioner.