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Whats funny is that people are forgetting that I did indeed leave Trinity and was actually part of the original group of ex-members.
I think you are the main one who is forgetting that, cherenuff1. You keep saying you have been at Trinity for 15 years, but really it has been less time than that if you subtract the time you’ve been gone. That does not invalidate your experience, but I think we should all strive to be accurate on the facts, here.
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I sat with Pam, Larry, Powell and others and we had great fun putting down Trinity, putting you and Ole and the other elders down. You're forgetting that I...myself...called it a cult after P/L/P/S/T told me it was.
Those folks have little recollection of doing this with you. Could you be exaggerating your level of contact with these folks?
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I was angry...of course I would have agreed with them that it was a cult and to me back then at that particular time in my life, it was. I wanted it to be cult. I wanted to despise you and the elders and everyone else that I felt made my life miserable. The ex-members thought that my husband and I were treated extremely unfairly and when I went to meet with them or talk to them, we would do nothing but whine about our 'terrible' experiences there. I did bring up once that I felt perhaps that my actions (lying) was probably wrong but they said it didn't matter. They said I was 'JUSTIFIED" in my lies and that God forgave me. I remember that clearly.
This is your perception of those conversations. I wasn’t there, so I don’t know—I was still in the cult phase of my life at that time. I am back in pretty good contact with some of those people now, though, and I do not think their current position would be to justify lying. That is certainly not my position, and I have expressed to zeuszor that he was wrong to lie to Trinity while he was there.
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They said that I wouldn't have been kicked out of a regular church for my lying. That would be true, I suppose. But then again, I would never have confessed to lying at a regular church to begin with.
Depends on the church, I guess. Whether or not you would have suffered a consequence at another church, lying is not good. I’m glad you seem to be past that, now.
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Of course, my husband started to get pretty uncomfortable and said that I really need to not talk to them again. He felt that they were infecting me with their bitterness. So...we left for another state and the more that I was away from others that talked bad about Trinity the more I thought about it. They would say terrible things that make me cringe like "hopefully that a**hole (Ole) will die so that we can go back to Trinity". I won't go into what they called you..LOL.
Why do you say “LOL” about people saying mean things about me? That seems mean-spirited in and of itself. I realize people are angry when they first leave cults—the anger is a necessary part of the healing process—but it is not healthy to get stuck there. I think Wendy and I have worked through all of that. In spite of what some people have said about her book, it is not an angry book. It is a book of enlightenment and healing. We both certainly have better things to do than to spend the rest of our lives being angry with Trinity Foundation.
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Phrases like that and the ones about you turned my stomach.
I am sure there have been lots of ugly things said on both sides of this. After Wendy and I left some of the things said about us in the Buckner Bible study got back to us, and it was pretty ugly, too. In fact, it seems like the BBS turned into basically just a “Doug-and-Wendy-bashing-session” for quite awhile, there.
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I, at that point, just didn't care about Trinity or the ex-members and their talk. I just didn't want to have anything much to do with any of them.
But...being away and going to different churches for 4 years made me realize that the doctrine that Trinity preaches was what I believed in and it took me awhile to find that out so we went back to give Trinity another chance and to give ourselves another chance. Of course, that was when you and Wendy were exiting. I was somewhat fearful of you still at that time but when you left, I felt relieved a bit (sorry just being honest).
I have no doubt that while I was in my “cult personality” I was a jerk. I have apologized to you privately, and I now do so publicly. The things I said to people—especially on hot seats—was wrong. If anyone else that I have hurt is reading this, I will be happy to talk to you, meet with you, or do whatever else I need to do in order to make amends for my part of the horrible evil that I participated in.
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What shocked me coming back to the group was that they stopped the hotseats, Ole didn't teach night bible studies in fact his health went downhill and he is rarely around now, the people were all more mellow and I asked them why and what happened to the fervor they use to have. I was told..."its no longer necesarry. We tried it for a bit, didn't like it and moved on." And they have been like this for the last 7 years that you and Wendy have been gone.
Yes, but this is the “I’m not doing it now” defense. Trinity has not corporately repented of this spiritual crime. The latest word on this that I read was in Glenna’s article in the Observer, where she quotes Ole as saying, “I make no apologies for the hot seats.” If a man gets old and becomes impotent so that he finally quits molesting children but never repents or makes amends, is it enough for him to say, “I stopped doing that 7 (or 14, or 21) years ago?” What about all the people out there that he has damaged? Are they all just supposed to “get over it?”
And, that metaphor is not over the top. The hot seats were the spiritual rape of a bunch of spiritual children. In fact, I actually had a conversation with Ole before I left the group where I told him that I had come to believe the hot seats were a mistake. Now, of course, I think they were worse than a mistake—they were a sin.
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I truly hope that some of the ex-members can let go of their anger and I say this because I was there, kicked out, became an angry ex-member, lost my self pity, came back and will again be leaving (but for different reasons).
I agree that it is best for people to work through their anger and get beyond it. People would be helped in this process if Trinity would admit some responsibility.
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I know what others are feeling and even you have to admit that I probably had the Worst hotseats EVER. Worse than you or any of the ex-members. And I tell you now...it will NEVER happen to me again. But I needn't worry about that because they don't happen. Can I compare myself to them...I feel that I can since during my time there at first, I had it worse than most of them. In fact, alot of ex-members were the ones that gave me my WORSE hotseats (ironic...isn't it).
You do not know what I, or anyone else is feeling, and it is patronizing and condescending to say that you do. Everybody’s experience is uniquely their own. For that reason, it is wrong to rank or compare people’s hot seats, because how they experienced them internally is what really matters. From the outside, I saw several that looked just as bad as yours (including a couple of my own).
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Like I said...the difference between myself and those that Wendy interviewed is that I didn't lose God. I stopped pitying myself and blaming others for my misery. This is just my opinion and as honest as I can possibly be.
This is an unfair blanket generalization of the experience of dozens of people. Not all of them “lost God,” and I don’t think most of them are wallowing in self-pity. They have moved on with their lives, but, when asked, they will tell you that Trinity was a dark and regrettable experience for them.
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I understand your point. I understand Brian's point. I understand the ex-members. I just choose to let it go and be as honest about how Trinity is now that I can be.
I am not sure you do understand my point, or Wendy’s. I’ll let Brian speak for himself. You want to dismiss us as angry and self-pitying, but that is very far from the truth. I grant that you are being honest in expressing your opinion about the fact that Trinity has mellowed out now (I think they have just gotten old and tired), but I am being just as honest when I express my view that it does not seem that they have really tried to examine their own role in the psychological and spiritual damage of so many people, and admit and repent of the things they have done that are wrong.
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**whew**. I know that I'm not going to sway anyone's opinion and at this point...I guess I really don't care. If any of the ex-members want to apologize for what they did to ME, they can. Don't just blame Ole...that makes me mad. Some of them, including you Doug, did the hotseats with relish. Own up to that and realize that your actions are your own. NO ONE forced you or others. Just when it came time for your own hotseats did any of you gripe.
**Yes Doug...I know that you apologized but others did not and perhaps, I'm still a bit hurt and angry that I feel you and others blame your actions on someone else. Don't know..you're the psychologist.**
All of the former members whom I know have things that they regret about the Trinity experience, and I do agree that everyone is responsible for their own actions. But (and I do not say this to justify myself), there was a culture there that informed all of that. I may have eviscerated some people on the hot seat myself, and I was wrong to do that, but I was very much doing what I was trained to do. That does not make it right, but it is all stuff I would not have been doing in any other context. It was not what I was like before I got to Trinity, and it is not what I am like now.
By the way, I have a master’s degree and am credentialed as a Licensed Professional Counselor. You have to have a Ph.D. to be able to call yourself a Psychologist.
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