I think Jackie has a more balanced view of the situation than you give her credit for. Jackie never retracted that statement as you said Mark. It is an external link to her site because it is an issue unrelated to the main topic of her site. And as far as the comment that I am a pawn for anyone, that is simply untrue. I have done all of this by my own volition.

I realize that cult researchers do not all believe in the validity of Biblical criteria. That does not necessarily make Jackie's viewpoint untrue though. Her viewpoint also encompasses the belief that TFI is not a cult. That makes it relevant for this forum.

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Whether or not we followed the right procedures in separating from this cult is not even relevant.

It is relevant to those of us who share a Christian worldview. Your actions will prove whether showing the world that Trinity is a cult is of greater importance than obedience to the words of Christ. (which is your choice) [b:f5b87531d1]The validity of your position will be revealed to Christians at least, if you are willing to be accountable as you have called Ole Anthony to be.[/b:f5b87531d1] Many of your claims have been on the basis that he is not living up to the Christian values he espouses to. So while this issue may not be relevant to everyone reading this forum, it will be to those with a Christian worldview.(those of us who have done the majority of the posting here express a Christian faith)

Does anyone else see the bizarre nature of Nathan going on and on attacking Doug and Wendy as a proxy for Trinity , John Bloom, Robert Darden and now Jackie Alnor (whoever she is). This is surreal. This is Rosemary's Baby stuff.Would you Nathan expect an ex members of The Peoples Temple to have confronted Jim Jones. Doug and Wendy have [b:6dc93544e3]already[/b:6dc93544e3] met the "Biblical criteria for leaving". So have Larry and Pam and others including my wife and I and all we got for it was [b:6dc93544e3]humiliation[/b:6dc93544e3]. We walked out the door after two elders and their dear wives began an univited and unwanted hot seat. That was our last "bible study" and it left a bad taste in our mouth. How dare you try to bash us with scripture. I pray God helps you to see what you are doing to people who have already suffered enough in the hands of this group.
cultaware

Nathan, you are in over your head. You really are. I exhort you: give it up. You are starting to [i:aa82daf969]really [/i:aa82daf969]piss people off. I know that you think that the fact that people are offended by your presence here makes you feel all the more pious, like you must truly be "in the spirit" if you are making people uncomfortable, but the simple fact is that you are being a jerk. You are pouring salt on our wounds and you don't seem to realize it, or care. I have said it before, and I will say it again: you just don't know what you are talking about here. So please, hush up, and go away if you have nothing constructive to contribute. This is not pious activity that you are engaging yourself in; you are acting as an advocate for the demoniac. Please, recieve this!

Good point about Jim Jones cultaware...IMHO Matthew 18 does not apply if you are dealing with a wolf in sheep's clothing like Ole. This is a man who is inherently evil at his core...that which is crooked cannot be made straight...

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It is relevant to those of us who share a Christian worldview. Your actions will prove whether showing the world that Trinity is a cult is of greater importance than obedience to the words of Christ. (which is your choice) [b:78b34f657f]The validity of your position will be revealed to Christians at least, if you are willing to be accountable as you have called Ole Anthony to be.[/b:78b34f657f] Many of your claims have been on the basis that he is not living up to the Christian values he espouses to. So while this issue may not be relevant to everyone reading this forum, it will be to those with a Christian worldview.(those of us who have done the majority of the posting here express a Christian faith)

What does that mean, "a Christian worldview"? Seems to me that there as many "Christian worldviews" as there are Christians, Nathan! All that [i:78b34f657f]really[/i:78b34f657f] means is "Nathan's worldview" or "Jackie's worldview". If you want to talk about the Scriptures, Mr. Nathan definer-and-arbiter-of-the-Christian-worldview, I think of Matthew 7:1-6. Jesus is telling us how we should deal with out brothers, right? Well, my (our) position is that Ole IS NOT a brother, he is one of the "ravening wolves" that Jesus mentions is verse 15. Then He tells us how we can discern the brethren form the wolves: by their fruits. So not everybody who comes claiming "Lord, Lord" is a true brother. Jesus is constantly exhorting us to exercise discernment in distinguishing the "sheep" from the "wolves". Ole is a wolf, not a sheep, and therefore is to be dealt with as such, not as one would approach a brother. Ole is not a brother, so therefore Matthew 18 does not apply in this circumstance.

I am not speaking on behalf of John Bloom, Robert Darden, or even Jackie. I only mentioned them as significant people who do not share your view about Trinity being a cult. I personally agree with Jackie about the Matthew 18 issue. Again, I am saying this here of my own volition.

I am not saying there are no problems at Trinity. The extreme nature of this attack on them is unbalanced though in my view because some of you won't acknowledge your own shortcomings in this.

Nathan:

At this point your posts are becoming redundant, as you are essentially repeating yourself over and over again.

You support Trinity/Ole Anthony and don't agree with Doug.

OK.

Now do you have anything else that is new to add?

This is a forum for discussion/dialog.

Please understand that repeating essentially the same thing over and over again is not exactly a meaningful exchange of ideas.

[b:aeadefd0c7]Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
[/b:aeadefd0c7]

In the above verses, Jesus is saying that doing the will of God qualifies one as a member of the metaphorical "family of God". The people who do the good will of the Lord and show it with an abundant "harvest" of good "fruits" is evidence of being one of the "brethren". I say that Ole is not a "brother" in this sense. I still love God and in a sense I still love Ole, but his ministry ("fruit") is inherently evil and rotten at its core and and should be avoided or at best he is a character who should be treated with real caution. He is a [i:aeadefd0c7]bad guy[/i:aeadefd0c7]. He is one of the "false brethren", the "ravening wolves". He has little good fruit to show for his ministry. Some of the good "fruits" of the Spirit of God are listed here:
[b:aeadefd0c7]
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.[/b:aeadefd0c7]

Do I have to spell it out for you again, Nathan? The Ole I remember had nothing in the way of human warmth or a pleasantness of manner. This characteristic was common in many respects to all of TFI's "inner cadre". No good fruit there...but you wouldn't know [i:aeadefd0c7]because you don't know them.[/i:aeadefd0c7]

Do you draw attention to me for being redundant because I am the one person who does not agree with the rest on this forum? Consider how many times Zeuszor asked me to list my 3 least favorite things about Ole. Consider how many times they have said I am just a pawn for Trinity. I have responded to the points they too have repeatedly brought up.

The Jackie Alnor link is new and has not been fully discussed. I don't think that was redundant to bring it to the light. I did contribute something even though the others did not like it.

I will though make an effort not to repeat myself insofar as the others do the same. This is a two way street. It is good that there be real communication and not just the airing of empty words.

Nathan:

So answer questions the first time.

Largely what you seem to be doing here Nathan is acting as a surrogate for Trinity and attempting to attack former members personally.

Frankly, that is pretty much what an "Internet troll" does.

Nathan-

Here's another thing for you to consider: People leave cults all the time, sometimes in mass. Many let the counter-cult ministries know about their experiences. I'm sure it may have occurred in the past, but most ministries, after hearing of the abuse - which in many cases, in addition to psychological abuse, can be physical and/or sexual - do not recommend the Matt. 18 process.
I'm totally convinced that with regard to the Duncans and TFI the only reason the Matt. 18 process is being urged is because this cult is led by an individual who has provided info to various counter-cult ministries. This isn't about "handling a situation in a Biblical manner", it's about many people in the counter-cult ministries saving face.

Do you have any idea who Ron Enroth is and the HUGE credibility he has?
Why don't you contact him and ask him why he endorsed the book on the back cover? The Duncans and I can both tell you that he is one of the most compassionate individuals in the counter-cult field. There are very few people like him. There are too many people who are simply info junkies who have absolutely no ability to council ex-cultists. Some have even told me personally that they don't council people! Their basic attitude is "Thanks for your info, now move along." You have to understand that the apologetics ministries are rife with people that have no compassion for ex-cultists. Some of the deepest hurts I've had since leaving the cult I was in have come at their hands.

Why don't you contact the other individuals listed on the back cover?

Do you have any comments on Ole's definition of forgiveness?

Mark