[i:125dd7c163]The overall result of reading the book is that it has significantly deepened my concern that Ole has had far more control than any one man should have. While Ole struck me as a dominating personality, it seems even more clear that he has had too much control over many areas of TFI's culture. In fact he seems to be the creator of it. This troubled me from the beginning. This suspicion has now fully surfaced. [/i:125dd7c163]

Nathan, you posted this a while back. Are you aware of how much you vacillate?[/size:125dd7c163][/color:125dd7c163]

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rrmoderator
The book raises serious issues.

I have not received complaints about the Trinity Foundation or Ole Anthony over the years, but the comments by former members in the book and here on the message board are compelling.

The Trinity Foundation has done good work exposing unethical televangelists, but that doesn't excuse the conduct of Anthony described in the book.

If the reports about Anthony's behavior are true, which they apper to be, he seems to have much to answer for.

But no one has heard from Ole Anthony yet, in a public statement addressing the book and its implications.[/color:0593e3a911]
It would be meaningful if Anthony and/or the Trinity Foundation made an extensive, detailed and comprehensive public statement to address the issues raised by its former members.

Nathan, you reported on this message board that “You'd think a public response would serve to clear the rumor mill.” Why haven't you encouraged Trinity Foundation to do that?

In my opinion, Counselor, expecting “reconciliation” between current cult members and former cult members is a bit naïve. What do you think can be reconciled? That current cult members would understand that they are, in fact, in a cult? Or the former cult members would become pals again with the current cultists? Everyone would kiss and make up? You and your wife have called Trinity Foundation a cult. You have called their doctrine/teachings heretical. You have called their leader a liar and a fraud. Are you expecting the current cult members to agree with you?

The whole reconciliation thing seems bizarre to me.

NathanN,
Just for the record Wendy's book did not come "out of the blue" as far as TF was concerned. Gary knew about it when she first started the book and then again when she began looking for a publisher. [b:8249938a0c]Another day another lie.[/b:8249938a0c] I don't know if reconciliatin is possible either. You NathanA have been lied to once again, not that it will matter to you (though I pray it does). I know how beguiling this group can be. You probably think they see you as a hero. They don't. They see you as useful.
cultaware

"I Put A Spell On You" by Screamin' Jay Hawkins (TO HEAR IT, GO TO THIS WEBSITE [http] THEN CLICK ON THE LITTLE BOX THAT SAYS "I PUT A SPELL ON YOU") -

I put a spell on you
Because you're mine
Stop the things you do
Heheheh
I ain't lyin'

Yeah
I can't stand no running around
I can't stand no putting me down

I put a spell on you
Because you're mine, oh yeah

sax solo

Stop the things you do
heheheh
I ain't lyin'

Uaaaaargh!
I love you. I love you. I love you anyhow

I don't care if you don't want me
I'm yours right now

I put a spell on you
Because you're mine

Oh, yeah

(lots of snoring & growling)

Think about how Ole had endeared you or given you impressions and even deeds of love and attention/recognition, only to later find out another side of the story that you have now dismissed as trash...or have you had thoughts about this man and/or his organization possibly being not what they were cracked up to be...only to dismiss those thoughts as coming from a mind that's crossed up and needing prayer to get us back to the straight and loyal path. Then you saw and heard more and more and now you are kidding yourself.
The point of this thread is to illustrate one of the aspects that makes TFI a cult. It is a man following...using neo-Gnostic doctrine and a facade of social activism, mixed with lies and love gestures/personal magnetism, to get people recruited into their cult ministry.
Face it Nathan, you have been had. Ole put a spell on you.

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The whole reconciliation thing seems bizarre to me.

Good point, Seeking. The truth is that they are not the least bit interested in reconciliation. They have had dozens of opportunities over the last five years to do something conciliatory, and they have passed up every chance. Ironically, the one person who is an exception to this is Ole, who was basically nice to me the first time I saw him at one of Steve's hearings. Gary--and especially John (a.k.a. "Grima Wormtongue")--have gone out of their way to be petty.

And, what about the dozens of former members out there who are hurting? Why should Trinity suddenly be focused on reconciling with us to the exclusion of all those other people? Is it because we are the ones who have told the family secret and are making them look bad?

The fact is, Trinity has always taught that people who leave are "dead bodies," "ghosts on the high place," and are in "outer darkness." They have never said word one about reconciling with any former member until this business with Wendy's book started. Clearly, this is all a ruse to try to get us to back off of some of our criticism.

And, Nathan, I am starting to tire of your duplicity. You are pretty much acting as Trinity's shill here, whether you see it or not. If you don't see it, I would say that is a testament to just how good they are at what they do. However, the former members who are reading this will all appreciate the irony of that fact that you have essentially been punked-out by Pete.

[home.datacomm.ch]

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The overall result of reading the book is that it has significantly deepened my concern that Ole has had far more control than any one man should have. While Ole struck me as a dominating personality, it seems even more clear that he has had too much control over many areas of TFI's culture. In fact he seems to be the creator of it. This troubled me from the beginning. This suspicion has now fully surfaced.

Nathan, you posted this a while back. Are you aware of how much you vacillate?

Good question. If you note in my previous post I actually mentioned that I thought I would have to forget Trinity because they have seemed to be doing people some real harm. I really have been through the experience of some disappointment there. I concede that Doug, and some ex-members have some valuable things to say to Trinity. It has just become my belief that all the blame cannot be put on them as a destructive cult, because I do not believe they are a full-blown destructive cult. There are two sides to this story, and those of you who are posting here would have me believe that your side is the only valid position. I have respectfully heard them, as I have respectfully heard you, and aquiesced when you wanted me to read the book. There are definitely two sides to this story. While some are judging TFI's lack of a public response as a failure to look honestly at themselves, I would say it is more of a grace. I have heard Doug say far more negative about TFI than I have heard Trinity say negative about Doug.(maybe that is because I've talked to Doug more) In my opinion a destructive cult would try to demonize someone like Doug, and while they are critical of Doug, I don't see them as hateful or unmerciful towards him.

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Just for the record Wendy's book did not come "out of the blue" as far as TF was concerned. Gary knew about it when she first started the book and then again when she began looking for a publisher. Another day another lie. I don't know if reconciliatin is possible either. You NathanA have been lied to once again, not that it will matter to you (though I pray it does). I know how beguiling this group can be. You probably think they see you as a hero. They don't. They see you as useful.
cultaware

But didn't the fact that she was writing a book about TFI come from "out of the blue"? It seems to me these things were written before Doug or Wendy sat down with them and said, "Look, these are the issues we have with you...If you do not come clean about these sins, Wendy is going to write a book that exposes you for what you are, and we will tell it to everyone." The very serious step of writing such a book and going public was taken before Trinity was allowed to have a fair discussion with them. You do not just send a few emails over time to your enemy, you make your best effort to sit down and ask those who have sinned against you to repent before you go that far. To the best of my knowledge, Doug and Wendy did not do that because Doug says he would be setting himself up to be abused again. Personally, I don't think he should have been afraid if he knew he really had the truth. I don't believe he would have really been placing himself in danger. I think Doug should have faced up to them first, before going on to accuse them of not doing the very thing he would not do. If he would like Trinity to repent, he ought to first go and confess this fault to them, and then and only then could he justly take up his case with them.

And by the way Cultaware, I don't give a flying flip if Trinity sees me as a hero. I think they had better put their money where their mouth is, and seek the reconcillation they supposedly desire. If they don't, they will prove to the world what hypocrites they truly are. It will certainly upset me to have given them the benefit of the doubt in this, and see them not seek peace with you. I think that would be fair grounds to say that your claims about them are in fact very true. I just think Doug needs to go to them first, as would have been fair to do before this book was written.

Nathan, would you tell a former member of Scientology or any other cult that he should go to his cult leader and discuss his concerns before he writes about his experience?

In my opinion, if you are dealing with a cult, the rules are different.

Nathan,

When criticized, all cults engage in [i:f3815bf5a8]ad hominem[/i:f3815bf5a8] attacks against their critics—usually former members. You are their willing accomplice in their tactic of not addressing the criticism of themselves and their group and instead making this about Wendy and me, as if there was some procedure we did not follow correctly in our process of leaving the cult.

Let me give you some historical background. Another couple—also elders at Trinity—Pam and Larry Ferguson, went through a similar process of separation a few years before Wendy and I did. Larry wrote an excellent letter to the board laying out what all the problems were, and then he came back and had a meeting with everyone to try to explain his position. In short, Larry did exactly what everyone says I should have done. All he got for his trouble was abuse, and for years everybody there talked about him like he was a dog. I got the message loud and clear: whatever the correct process is to leave this place, the way that Larry did it was not right. Therefore, when I left Trinity my mantra was, “I am not going to do this like Larry did.” I had been taught what he did was wrong (it was too confrontational, I guess), but now we are being told that what we did and how we left was not confrontational enough. The point is, it doesn’t matter. From Trinity’s perspective, whatever you do is going to be wrong. There is no possible way we could have left the group correctly, because it is a fundamental tenant of the group that the most wrong thing anyone could ever do is leave. Though they may lie to you about this if you ask them, it was a central tenant of the group that to fail to endure (abide, continue, persevere) is to fail to fulfill the call of Christ. Most of their teaching centers in on this principle of “falling into the ground and dying.”

This whole tactic is just a head game, and it is obviously working on you. There is nothing we could have ever, ever done that would have been satisfactory to Trinity as far as the separation process goes, and this whole direction of discussion is bullshit. Trinity has done what they wanted and shifted the focus of the discussion off of themselves and onto us. I guess you have to give the devils their due, because they are pretty good at this.

I am just an ordinary guy. I do not claim to be anyone special, or to have any special revelation. Ole, however, sees himself as the Prophet for this generation who is designated by God to rid the Body of Christ of the scourge of the false gospel of the prosperity preachers. He has held Trinity out to be the model of the ideal Christian community, the perfect contrast to Tilton and the others. It seems to me that they have put themselves in the position of being the ones to be held to the higher standard. This discussion is rightly focused on them, not us.

I said, "There is no possible way we could have left the group correctly, because it is a fundamental [i:f331dd7680]tenant[/i:f331dd7680] of the group that the most wrong thing anyone could ever do is leave. Though they may lie to you about this if you ask them, it was a central [i:f331dd7680]tenant[/i:f331dd7680] of the group that to fail to endure (abide, continue, persevere) is to fail to fulfill the call of Christ."

I realize, of course, the correct word is "tenet."

:oops: