The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
counselor47
()
Date: November 23, 2006 11:52PM
[i:2dca2a0d89]As for the the abuse claims, I liken it to Jesus saying "let the dead bury the dead" to a man whose father passed away. Yes from one perspective you could say that was verbally abusive and completly hurtful. It was the truth God spoke though. I believe that is the kind of thing you are labelling as abuse.[/i:2dca2a0d89]
If that’s all it was, it would not be abuse. Ole once grabbed a man by the throat and threatened to crush his larynx during a hot seat, and there are many other instances where he threatened people with physical violence. Do not compare these actions to the things said and done by my Lord.
[i:2dca2a0d89]You speak as if the phrase "you have no rights" were not my own words. However, for your sake I will put it differently. Jesus willingly let himself be brutalized, humiliated, and killed for our sakes. Did Jesus retain any of his own will in this? No. He obeyed the Father unto death for your salvation. Our society believes that every human being deserves to have their basic needs met, to be treated justly, and have the freedom to do what they wish. Many would call these things "human rights." However, in light of Christ willingly giving up these basic things in order to save us who have sinned in the sight of God, we too are called to be living sacrifices. The scriptures say this is our reasonable service. This is basic Christianity - reformation theology. Jesus said "if anyone tries to save his life, he will lose it." Your life is not your own. As a true disciple of Jesus Christ, those basic entitlements called "rights" no longer belong to you.
To conclude this point, I leave you with a quote from the famous Christian missionary Doctor, Helen Roseveare. I choose this as a source external to Trinity. This is from her book "Living Sacrifice":
"God had often shown me that I was to have no rights, no right to decide or to choose, no right to own or to possess. All rights were to be His. If I gave Him my will honestly(which I believe for me is the ultimate meaning of loving God with all my soul), then He alone had the right to control and guide my will." -pg.68, 1979 edition
In this book Helen goes on to tell her story of being beaten, raped, and imprisoned.
You are blinded by pride if you fail to see what I am talking about here Brian. If I am parroting someone, it is not Trinity when I used that phrase. In all honesty, I wasn't even thinking of Helen Roseveare here either when I used the phrase, "you have no rights."[/i:2dca2a0d89]
Does that mean that Ole and his followers have the right to abuse people, or that we are somehow wrong to hold them to some standard of accountability? You have switched the terms of the debate here. I started this thread, and the purpose was not to debate the deepest meanings of what the call to follow Christ means. That is, indeed, a good topic for discussion, and there are lots of places on the internet to talk about it. However, this thread was begun in order to alert people to the abuses perpetrated by a pseudo-Christian group that is operating outside of any meaningful accountability structure. I am a follower of Jesus myself, but a very flawed one. I often fall short of the example set by our Lord—as, I suspect, do you at times, Nathan. But the fact that we are less than perfect Christians does not invalidate what we are saying here. After our involvement with Trinity we are blessed to still be counted as believers at all.
[i:2dca2a0d89]Well, I am skeptical that every single person who has left there feels as you do. I would guess people have left for a variety of reasons.[/i:2dca2a0d89]
I challenge you, or anyone reading this, to find any former member who was significantly involved with Trinity who says that the perspective offered in Wendy’s book is inaccurate. Wendy interviewed many people for the book, and we have heard from even more since the book came out. I think it is more than fair to say that her book, [i:2dca2a0d89]I Can’t Hear God Anymore: Life in a Dallas Cult[/i:2dca2a0d89], represents the consensus view of the former members of Trinity Foundation.
[i:2dca2a0d89]Even so, I know that the TFI leaders are indeed controversial men, and you won't have your ears tickled by any of them. Jesus drove away many followers too. I am more willing to trust someone who drives people away than one who draws them in(ie. Joel Osteen) That in itself does not mean something is true or false, but it is a point of discernment. Do I dismiss the stories of every single person who has left Trinity? No. I do however take it with a grain of salt. Take for example the story of Cricket, whom you posted. She had the honesty to admitt that Ole had in fact, done some genuinely kind things for her. You however are saying things like," Every day that Ole Anthony is alive is another day that I know that the Devil is alive and well." Her attitude about Ole is notably different from yours.[/i:2dca2a0d89]
Personally, I have acknowledged here and other places that Ole/Trinity has done some good and has said some things that are true and that needed to be said. However, Ole has had a 15-year-long love affair with a fawning media that has only given one side of the story. Ole/Trinity has not lacked for good press. What we are trying to do is tell the other side and bring a little more balance to the discussion.
[i:2dca2a0d89]I really hope to let Christ be the plumb line. At this point , I do not see serious inconsistancies with Trinity and the Jesus I believe. I don't actually believe many people can accept the very high demands made by Christ. I believe many people today would react to him just as you have reacted to TFI. You don't even recognize the Christ you claim to believe.[/i:2dca2a0d89]
But—and this is our point—you are conflating the demands of Trinity with the demands of Christ. The two are not one and the same. It is true the demands of Christ are high--and they are even higher for those who become teachers. Would that there was some attempt by those at Trinity to live them, and not just preach them.
If that’s all it was, it would not be abuse. Ole once grabbed a man by the throat and threatened to crush his larynx during a hot seat, and there are many other instances where he threatened people with physical violence. Do not compare these actions to the things said and done by my Lord.
[i:2dca2a0d89]You speak as if the phrase "you have no rights" were not my own words. However, for your sake I will put it differently. Jesus willingly let himself be brutalized, humiliated, and killed for our sakes. Did Jesus retain any of his own will in this? No. He obeyed the Father unto death for your salvation. Our society believes that every human being deserves to have their basic needs met, to be treated justly, and have the freedom to do what they wish. Many would call these things "human rights." However, in light of Christ willingly giving up these basic things in order to save us who have sinned in the sight of God, we too are called to be living sacrifices. The scriptures say this is our reasonable service. This is basic Christianity - reformation theology. Jesus said "if anyone tries to save his life, he will lose it." Your life is not your own. As a true disciple of Jesus Christ, those basic entitlements called "rights" no longer belong to you.
To conclude this point, I leave you with a quote from the famous Christian missionary Doctor, Helen Roseveare. I choose this as a source external to Trinity. This is from her book "Living Sacrifice":
"God had often shown me that I was to have no rights, no right to decide or to choose, no right to own or to possess. All rights were to be His. If I gave Him my will honestly(which I believe for me is the ultimate meaning of loving God with all my soul), then He alone had the right to control and guide my will." -pg.68, 1979 edition
In this book Helen goes on to tell her story of being beaten, raped, and imprisoned.
You are blinded by pride if you fail to see what I am talking about here Brian. If I am parroting someone, it is not Trinity when I used that phrase. In all honesty, I wasn't even thinking of Helen Roseveare here either when I used the phrase, "you have no rights."[/i:2dca2a0d89]
Does that mean that Ole and his followers have the right to abuse people, or that we are somehow wrong to hold them to some standard of accountability? You have switched the terms of the debate here. I started this thread, and the purpose was not to debate the deepest meanings of what the call to follow Christ means. That is, indeed, a good topic for discussion, and there are lots of places on the internet to talk about it. However, this thread was begun in order to alert people to the abuses perpetrated by a pseudo-Christian group that is operating outside of any meaningful accountability structure. I am a follower of Jesus myself, but a very flawed one. I often fall short of the example set by our Lord—as, I suspect, do you at times, Nathan. But the fact that we are less than perfect Christians does not invalidate what we are saying here. After our involvement with Trinity we are blessed to still be counted as believers at all.
[i:2dca2a0d89]Well, I am skeptical that every single person who has left there feels as you do. I would guess people have left for a variety of reasons.[/i:2dca2a0d89]
I challenge you, or anyone reading this, to find any former member who was significantly involved with Trinity who says that the perspective offered in Wendy’s book is inaccurate. Wendy interviewed many people for the book, and we have heard from even more since the book came out. I think it is more than fair to say that her book, [i:2dca2a0d89]I Can’t Hear God Anymore: Life in a Dallas Cult[/i:2dca2a0d89], represents the consensus view of the former members of Trinity Foundation.
[i:2dca2a0d89]Even so, I know that the TFI leaders are indeed controversial men, and you won't have your ears tickled by any of them. Jesus drove away many followers too. I am more willing to trust someone who drives people away than one who draws them in(ie. Joel Osteen) That in itself does not mean something is true or false, but it is a point of discernment. Do I dismiss the stories of every single person who has left Trinity? No. I do however take it with a grain of salt. Take for example the story of Cricket, whom you posted. She had the honesty to admitt that Ole had in fact, done some genuinely kind things for her. You however are saying things like," Every day that Ole Anthony is alive is another day that I know that the Devil is alive and well." Her attitude about Ole is notably different from yours.[/i:2dca2a0d89]
Personally, I have acknowledged here and other places that Ole/Trinity has done some good and has said some things that are true and that needed to be said. However, Ole has had a 15-year-long love affair with a fawning media that has only given one side of the story. Ole/Trinity has not lacked for good press. What we are trying to do is tell the other side and bring a little more balance to the discussion.
[i:2dca2a0d89]I really hope to let Christ be the plumb line. At this point , I do not see serious inconsistancies with Trinity and the Jesus I believe. I don't actually believe many people can accept the very high demands made by Christ. I believe many people today would react to him just as you have reacted to TFI. You don't even recognize the Christ you claim to believe.[/i:2dca2a0d89]
But—and this is our point—you are conflating the demands of Trinity with the demands of Christ. The two are not one and the same. It is true the demands of Christ are high--and they are even higher for those who become teachers. Would that there was some attempt by those at Trinity to live them, and not just preach them.
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: November 24, 2006 08:42AM
Quote
So tell me please, Nathan, what would it take to satisfy you? Under what conditions would you be convinced? What would constitute "proof" of what we say in your mind? What will it take, Nathan? I offered you a free book. I have offered to discuss this with you personally, by phone. I have tried and tried to get this information out to you and you refuse to accept it. Then you come to the table and say "I don't believe it! There's an absence of truth in your claims!" Well, duh! How do you know? You refuse to see the evidence! You've never met these people! Do you really want to learn something here, are you willing to be objective in analyzing this matter? Or have you got no desire to be reasoned with, no desire to learn? What would it take to satisfy you that we're not just making it all up out of the blue?
Please, humor me Nathan. You didn't answer my question. What would it take to satisfy you that Doug, Wendy, God of Meat, matthewtoo, myself, and all the rest are neither lying nor under a mass delusion and are misinterpreting their experience with TFI? Who are you and what is your interest in this message board? You have nothing to contribute to the discussion and it seems like your only object here is to divert the flow of conversation and frustrate our efforts. You are a shill for TFI. Do you know what a shill is? Here is one definition that I found online:
[b:0442a38961]One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.[/b:0442a38961]
If you think you're helping TFI by continuing to post here, you're wrong. Quit trying to stick up for them. You are making yourself look foolish, and are proving our point for us. You are actually making them look bad. You are making [i:0442a38961]you[/i:0442a38961] look bad. You refuse to read the book or the consider the evidence and again, it seems like you are very biased against our claims because they do not fit the picture you have of TFI. You refuse to look at this matter objectively, that is, in a manner uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices. The best you can come up with is to imply that Wendy and/ or myself I do not know God. What you are presenting is a textbook example of a display of defensiveness by someone who is caught up in an abusive religious system. Your pride will not allow you to admit that you have been fooled. Usually, it is an appeal to pride that lures somebody into a cult, and it's pride that retains you there. Nobody likes to admit that they're wrong. Again, until you have a well-rounded sense of what you're talking about, until you've read Wendy's book, until you've spent some time on the Block and have interacted with these people for anything more than a casual period of time, until you have critically and objectively examined the evidence, until you are qualified to tell us about what TFI culture is like, than please, go away. Hell man, you've never met any of these people in person. Doesn't that mean something to you? The best thing you can come up with in terms of a defense of TFI is "You're lying!" You sound foolish, stubborn and naive and everybody knows it but you. Nothing personal, as I don't know you. If you believe Ole's doctrine, you are decieved and are believing a lie. Period. That's not a safe "in my opinion", that's the stone cold truth. The best you can do is to insult me. That's weak. So please, do your homework thoroughly (like I did) or else go away.
If, during a 7:30 Bible study, you came at Ole with the half-baked arguments you come here with, he'd laugh and call you an idiot. Yes, he would! He'd say that you have the mind of a brute beast and tell you to quit sucking on that menstrual rag you have in your mouth. THAT is the real Ole Anthony. Don't you dare tell me I am wrong. You know what you are doing (trolling) and you are pissing me off in my flesh. You don't know squat about me and my life. Don't you dare tell me that I do not strive to know God.
I'll repeat:
Quote
So tell me please, Nathan, what would it take to satisfy you? Under what conditions would you be convinced? What would constitute "proof" of what we say in your mind? What will it take, Nathan? I offered you a free book. I have offered to discuss this with you personally, by phone. I have tried and tried to get this information out to you and you refuse to accept it. Then you come to the table and say "I don't believe it! There's an absence of truth in your claims!" Well, duh! How do you know? You refuse to see the evidence! You've never met these people! Do you really want to learn something here, are you willing to be objective in analyzing this matter? Or have you got no desire to be reasoned with, no desire to learn? What would it take to satisfy you that we're not just making it all up out of the blue?
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: November 24, 2006 10:26AM
(Just posted on the Dallas Observer- Letters to the Editor)
Just as Rotten
Alpha Ole: There is no doubt that the Trinity Foundation is a cult ("The Cult of Ole," by Glenna Whitley, August 3). Cults are characterized by a charismatic leader who intrudes on the personal lives of others, discourages and systematically denigrates and destroys critical thinking, destroys boundaries and fosters dependence on the leadership. I once helped Trinity Foundation with an exposé on Bishop Earl Paulk. It turns out that Anthony and his ilk are just as bad and as sexually and financially exploitative as the televangelists Anthony exposes. Anthony has had past sexual improprieties which he hasn't come clean about and obviously has a personality disorder that sees the need to dominate and control the lives of people with low intelligence and lack of critical-thinking skills. He is dangerous, as are most alpha personalities with the need to dominate and think for others.
The Reverend Richard Lee
Spokane, Washington
Just as Rotten
Alpha Ole: There is no doubt that the Trinity Foundation is a cult ("The Cult of Ole," by Glenna Whitley, August 3). Cults are characterized by a charismatic leader who intrudes on the personal lives of others, discourages and systematically denigrates and destroys critical thinking, destroys boundaries and fosters dependence on the leadership. I once helped Trinity Foundation with an exposé on Bishop Earl Paulk. It turns out that Anthony and his ilk are just as bad and as sexually and financially exploitative as the televangelists Anthony exposes. Anthony has had past sexual improprieties which he hasn't come clean about and obviously has a personality disorder that sees the need to dominate and control the lives of people with low intelligence and lack of critical-thinking skills. He is dangerous, as are most alpha personalities with the need to dominate and think for others.
The Reverend Richard Lee
Spokane, Washington
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
NathanA
()
Date: November 24, 2006 04:08PM
I appreciate very much your patience with me Doug. The part you mentioned about Ole grabbing a man by the throat and threatening to crush his larnyx certainly bothers me. I'd be disappointed to find that was true, and that Ole cannot recognize his fault in such things. Truth is that I suspect it.
Brian, if its true that I'm hurting Trinity's case, at least for me, it is true that you are hurting Doug's case. Even though I a may be completely wrong, you'd do well to let your speech be seasoned with some grace and tolerence. Observe Doug's tone, and learn.
Doug, as for me discussing the "you have no rights" concept, I did it because it was one of the points Brian has ridiculed recently, and he asked me to spell it out for him like a 6 year old.(to use his own words)
I stress this Brian, please relax a little bit because I will leave and just privately email Doug if you don't.
This is VERY serious to me. I will be very disappointed and upset to know that there is an accountability gap at TFI. It is very difficult for me to talk to you Brian because you don't realize how personal this is for me, even though I have never actually visited TFI. I have given them financial support, and they are some of the few people I really trust for spiritual guidance. I have said this on the verge of tears. I just need you guys to bear with me, because I do at least take Doug seriously. I really need to know this. It would seem you should know how hard it is to discover falsehood in someone you really trust. I hope to God that these things you're saying are not accurate.
If someone writes a book about someone you trust and love that says they are abusive, you wouldn't buy that book because you wouldn't want to feed into a lie. Rather you'd defend that person you trust. However, if I am convinced there may be truth in what the book says, I'd be at peace with reading it.
Up until this point, my conscience has not sat well with the idea of reading the book. I hope that if I read it, I can really believe that this is absolute and unadulterated truth. If you can convince me that it is, I'll read it.
Brian, if its true that I'm hurting Trinity's case, at least for me, it is true that you are hurting Doug's case. Even though I a may be completely wrong, you'd do well to let your speech be seasoned with some grace and tolerence. Observe Doug's tone, and learn.
Doug, as for me discussing the "you have no rights" concept, I did it because it was one of the points Brian has ridiculed recently, and he asked me to spell it out for him like a 6 year old.(to use his own words)
I stress this Brian, please relax a little bit because I will leave and just privately email Doug if you don't.
This is VERY serious to me. I will be very disappointed and upset to know that there is an accountability gap at TFI. It is very difficult for me to talk to you Brian because you don't realize how personal this is for me, even though I have never actually visited TFI. I have given them financial support, and they are some of the few people I really trust for spiritual guidance. I have said this on the verge of tears. I just need you guys to bear with me, because I do at least take Doug seriously. I really need to know this. It would seem you should know how hard it is to discover falsehood in someone you really trust. I hope to God that these things you're saying are not accurate.
If someone writes a book about someone you trust and love that says they are abusive, you wouldn't buy that book because you wouldn't want to feed into a lie. Rather you'd defend that person you trust. However, if I am convinced there may be truth in what the book says, I'd be at peace with reading it.
Up until this point, my conscience has not sat well with the idea of reading the book. I hope that if I read it, I can really believe that this is absolute and unadulterated truth. If you can convince me that it is, I'll read it.
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
Brad69
()
Date: November 24, 2006 08:30PM
NathanA wrote:
Nathan, I've been following this thread for quite some time and considering that you have expressed some reluctant reservations about TFI, it appears to me that you owe it to yourself to read the book. You'll be capable of making a decision on its veracity only after reading it.
What Doug has posted here is mere snippets compared to reading the entire book, and I have, by the way, read it.
To reach an informed opinion, you need to consider all the information available to you. Denying that possible disturbing information exists, by not reading the book, means you are avoiding what could be very valuable information to you. That information could play a huge role in your spiritual path. Make sure you are following the right path.
Good luck. Take the plunge and give it a read.
Quote
If someone writes a book about someone you trust and love that says they are abusive, you wouldn't buy that book because you wouldn't want to feed into a lie. Rather you'd defend that person you trust. However, if I am convinced there may be truth in what the book says, I'd be at peace with reading it.
Nathan, I've been following this thread for quite some time and considering that you have expressed some reluctant reservations about TFI, it appears to me that you owe it to yourself to read the book. You'll be capable of making a decision on its veracity only after reading it.
What Doug has posted here is mere snippets compared to reading the entire book, and I have, by the way, read it.
To reach an informed opinion, you need to consider all the information available to you. Denying that possible disturbing information exists, by not reading the book, means you are avoiding what could be very valuable information to you. That information could play a huge role in your spiritual path. Make sure you are following the right path.
Good luck. Take the plunge and give it a read.
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: November 24, 2006 11:02PM
Nathan, please forgive me for being overly aggressive and less than totally patient. I have deliberately been playing the "bad cop" to Doug's "good cop". To tell you the absolute truth, I deliberately tried to upset you a bit, tried to get an emotional response from you, so that I could figure out whether you are here to troll, or whether you were actually sincere. It was a test of your sincerity. That was done on purpose and I never hit below the belt by going after you personally, as you did me. I never wished to [i:42b39bd99e]hurt you[/i:42b39bd99e]. I see that you are sincere. Please, I want to be friends with you. On the other side of the screen, I am actually an OK guy and I am sure that you are too. What did you say is the name of that ministry that you are connected to in Canada that links TFI's studies to their website? Are you ready to give Doug your address so that he can send you a book, on me?
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
counselor47
()
Date: November 25, 2006 07:27AM
Quote
zeuszor
(Just posted on the Dallas Observer- Letters to the Editor)
Just as Rotten
Alpha Ole: There is no doubt that the Trinity Foundation is a cult ("The Cult of Ole," by Glenna Whitley, August 3). Cults are characterized by a charismatic leader who intrudes on the personal lives of others, discourages and systematically denigrates and destroys critical thinking, destroys boundaries and fosters dependence on the leadership. I once helped Trinity Foundation with an exposé on Bishop Earl Paulk. It turns out that Anthony and his ilk are just as bad and as sexually and financially exploitative as the televangelists Anthony exposes. Anthony has had past sexual improprieties which he hasn't come clean about and obviously has a personality disorder that sees the need to dominate and control the lives of people with low intelligence and lack of critical-thinking skills. He is dangerous, as are most alpha personalities with the need to dominate and think for others.
The Reverend Richard Lee
Spokane, Washington
Hmmm. I partially agree with Rev. Lee, but the accusation about Ole being sexually exploitative is not true--at least in terms of his leadership at Trinity Foundation. I mean, there are some serious problems there, but I do not want to paint a cartoon-like picture of the place by making false accusations.
And, it is not fair to say that the people there (or in other high-demand groups, for that matter) are persons with low intelligence or lack of critical thinking skills. People join groups like Trinity because they think they can get some of their emotional and spiritual needs met there--it is not about how smart they are. In fact, (and I believe Rick Ross would back me up on this) cult recruits are often bright and idealistic. I was there for 20 years and I do not have low intelligence, and there are some very clever people still there.
I [i:5d5b11a20d]do[/i:5d5b11a20d] think it is fair for Rev. Lee to say that Ole is "a charismatic leader who intrudes on the personal lives of others, discourages and systematically denigrates and destroys critical thinking, destroys boundaries and fosters dependence on the leadership," and that is enough to warrant the red flags that we are putting out to warn about the place.
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
seeking
()
Date: November 25, 2006 09:11AM
NathanA:
Now, you sound like a real seeker of truth. It [b:c2c4baba06]is [/b:c2c4baba06]very hard to discover that something you believed in and that you supported financially, is not what you thought it was.
You also sound like Wendy Duncan in her book when she talks about the loss of a vision and loss of a dream. She saw Trinity Foundation as the real expression of Christianity and when the blinders fell off, she was hurt, disillusioned, disappointed, and couldn’t hear God anymore.
My heart goes out to both of you. Well, all of us who have sought the truth only to be seduced by an angel of light. May we all be able to hear God again.
Now, you sound like a real seeker of truth. It [b:c2c4baba06]is [/b:c2c4baba06]very hard to discover that something you believed in and that you supported financially, is not what you thought it was.
You also sound like Wendy Duncan in her book when she talks about the loss of a vision and loss of a dream. She saw Trinity Foundation as the real expression of Christianity and when the blinders fell off, she was hurt, disillusioned, disappointed, and couldn’t hear God anymore.
My heart goes out to both of you. Well, all of us who have sought the truth only to be seduced by an angel of light. May we all be able to hear God again.
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: November 26, 2006 03:28AM
From [i:e57ea24d55]American Exorcism: Expelling Demons in the Land of Plenty[/i:e57ea24d55] by Michael W. Cuneo. The quote from Pete is on page 187, in which he is speaking about his experiences in Spindale. Cuneo recounts their conversation:
[b:e57ea24d55]Does anybody think that this quote is as equally ironic (and equally sad) as the quote that counselor47 started this thread with? Keeping in mind what was going on in Pete's spiritual home, how could he not die of the irony? I mean, the Hot Seats and the deliverance sessions have their obvious differences one to another, but eerie similarities as well, and the end result is the same in both cases too...that is, ultimately a breaking of the will and the spirit of the person subjected to it. He sat through how many Hot Seats and eleven "strong prayer" sessions and how he didn't see the ironic similarity I'll never know. The cognitive dissonance that that realization would produce!
From Wendy's book, page 177:[/b:e57ea24d55]
[b:e57ea24d55]Does anybody else think that this is as ironic and puzzling as I do?[/b:e57ea24d55]
Quote
When I spoke with him, several years after the fact, Pete Evans expressed no regrets. He was just doing his job, he said. There were a number of reports of physical and emotional abuse coming out of Spindale, and the Trinity Foundation (with whom he's still associated) sent him to investigate. He moved to town and lived in a tent for a while before getting an apartment, and eventually worked his way into the Word of Faith congregation. It was a tough gig. During his four months undercover, he personally submitted to deliverance eleven times.
"Anywhere from six to twelve people would form a circle around you and scream the devils out of you at the top of their lungs," he said. "They wanted you to vomit the devils out in plastic buckets they put in front of you. Sometimes the people complained about being spit on during deliverance. So Jane made everybody stand in front of a mirror without getting spit on it. The screaming was so intense that some people suffered hearing damage or damage to their vocal chords. When you join up, you're asked to sign a waiver releasing the church from liability for injury. What kind of a church is that?"
[b:e57ea24d55]Does anybody think that this quote is as equally ironic (and equally sad) as the quote that counselor47 started this thread with? Keeping in mind what was going on in Pete's spiritual home, how could he not die of the irony? I mean, the Hot Seats and the deliverance sessions have their obvious differences one to another, but eerie similarities as well, and the end result is the same in both cases too...that is, ultimately a breaking of the will and the spirit of the person subjected to it. He sat through how many Hot Seats and eleven "strong prayer" sessions and how he didn't see the ironic similarity I'll never know. The cognitive dissonance that that realization would produce!
From Wendy's book, page 177:[/b:e57ea24d55]
Quote
What kind of a spiritual leader damages individuals to such a degree that, after they leave, they have no desire to enter another church for years? What kind of church weakens an individuals belief system to the point that he is unable to pray? What kind of religious group so unravels a person's faith that he can no longer profess a belief in God?
[b:e57ea24d55]Does anybody else think that this is as ironic and puzzling as I do?[/b:e57ea24d55]
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: November 26, 2006 03:36AM
Quote
counselor47
I used to be a member of the Trinity Foundation, a Bible-based cult in Dallas, Texas. I left (along with my wife) in 2000, and since that time my wife has written a book, [i:6d8e14bfe8]I Can't Hear God Anymore: Life in a Dallas Cult[/i:6d8e14bfe8], about our experiences there. The problem with this group is that the leader has managed to convince everyone that they are a mainstream Christian group, perhaps a little eccentric, and that they are doing the body of Christ a great service by serving as televangelist watchdogs. They publish a magazine, [i:6d8e14bfe8]The Door[/i:6d8e14bfe8], that is a Christian satire magazine. Actually, [i:6d8e14bfe8]The Door[/i:6d8e14bfe8] is sometimes quite funny, but overall some of the humor has gotten more mean-spirited ever since Trinity took it over from Mike Yaconelli and Youth Specialties back in 1996. [i:6d8e14bfe8]The Door[/i:6d8e14bfe8] sometimes has informative interviews with interesting people in the world of religion, including one not too long ago with Rick Ross! I am going to quote a brief passage of Ross's interview with [i:6d8e14bfe8]The Door[/i:6d8e14bfe8]:
[i:6d8e14bfe8]Certainly people that become involved in tight-knit groups find themselves in the midst of a community where they have a sense of belonging, a sense of acceptance. In destructive cults, the friendships they experience and the acceptance is highly conditional. There is no legitimate reason to leave. Those who leave become marked or estranged from the group. People are no longer friendly with them.
DOOR: Ostracized?
ROSS: They're called losers, backsliders, reprobates. They're rebellious against God—however the group terms it. The bottom line is the friendships they feel they've made and the sense of acceptance they feel the group offers is really not unconditional and instead quite the opposite. Most people could leave a church or a club or an organization and still have friends in that group and still communicate and still have a sense of history with that people and a continuing relationship—but that is most often not the case with the groups I deal with.
So even though people have this feeling about community and acceptance that, in and of itself, is often deceptive. It is not quite the way it seems.[/i:6d8e14bfe8]
Incredibly, this exactly describe our experience upon leaving Trinity Foundation. How the interviewer (Pete Evans) could have written this without dying from the irony I'll never know. If anyone is interested in my wife's book you can find it at www.dallascult.com
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